tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4902194604800140389..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Happy New Year 2014Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25127511193299249222014-01-22T06:12:45.468+02:002014-01-22T06:12:45.468+02:00Just a few things again with the links to Scandina...Just a few things again with the links to Scandinavia among the British. In the Mesolithic some of the Motala people settled in Britain. This is attested for archeologically. I am trying to find the link regarding the dig sites. Also in Kent, there was a dig recently in Bronze and Iron Age graves. Of the 25 samples, 9 were local (probably a Loschbourg/Motala mix), 8 from Southern Norway or Sweden (2 Bronze, 6 iron), and 5 were from the western Mediterranean(4 Bronze and 1 Iron). This is all according to the isotopes. I am trying to find the best link for this as well. So obviously Britain has always been connected with the future Germanic people. It is no wonder in the new plot with ANE,WHG,EEF that Britain is so close to Scandinavia. Lots of shared ancestry to the Mesolithic-the Iron Age. All pre-Saxon, likely.<br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2336094/Bronze-Age-burial-site-3-000-years-ago-contain-Scandinavian-western-European-migrants.htmlChadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23518086185071118372014-01-21T15:40:49.327+02:002014-01-21T15:40:49.327+02:00I think the Belgae were Celts from the Celtic / Ge...I think the Belgae were Celts from the Celtic / Germanic frontier who migrated to a more peaceful region for a quieter life hence being rougher and tougher than the people around them.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10371199548423860252014-01-21T02:17:05.646+02:002014-01-21T02:17:05.646+02:00In reference to the tooth of the archer; yes, I kn...In reference to the tooth of the archer; yes, I know it was isotopes. Another interesting deal with isotopes that I saw recently involved the Indo Europeans changing from heavy fish and wild game eaters, to finally eating their cattle and sheep regularly instead of just at special or religious occasions. This happened about the time they travelled down the Black Sea coast into the Balkans. Very interesting. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44980019376878247732014-01-20T22:19:40.265+02:002014-01-20T22:19:40.265+02:00Chad Rohlfsen, I'm not sure how your wish rela...Chad Rohlfsen, I'm not sure how your wish relates to ancient DNA. The Alsatians are still alive and well, although their German dialect is strongly endangered by French speech. I agree that it would be interesting to compare their DNA to ancient Elbe Germanic tribes and to Gallo-Romans from the Alsace region. The German Pomeranians who are still with us, however are an old generation. I doubt that there is going to be any study on them as long as some are still alive. But at least in the case of the uniparental markers we're in the lucky situation that it can be studied even in mixed descendants – as long as they correctly know the origin of the respective lineages. Of course it would be interesting to compare their DNA to northwestern Germans (northern Low Saxons and Westphalians being the main source of their German ancestry) and to Pomeranian Slavs who no longer exist as an ethnic group, except for the Kashubians on the lower Vistula. As for the tooth enamel sample you alluded to, this was about the isotopes, not the DNA; yes IIRC they showed he was from central Europe.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9276438018561664862014-01-19T16:44:42.593+02:002014-01-19T16:44:42.593+02:00Already Cavalli-Sforza showed with the „classical“...Already Cavalli-Sforza showed with the „classical“ serological markers, that the English are close to the Dutch and Danes, the Belgians close to the Germans, Swiss and Austrians, and the Scottish close to the Irish, but quite remote from the others.<br /><br />http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/534/rc5k.pngSimon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13310373249554935452014-01-19T16:27:22.263+02:002014-01-19T16:27:22.263+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81882216436755877972014-01-19T13:32:21.993+02:002014-01-19T13:32:21.993+02:00Chad Rohlfsen, yeah you're right, northeastern...Chad Rohlfsen, yeah you're right, northeastern France almost up to Paris (and in fact including the Upper Normandy) and parts of the Netherlands and Germany left of the Rhine were Belgic too, so at least we should add the northeastern French to the candidates of the most Belgic descendants, since the Germanic speakers are likely to be somewhat more Germanic admixed.<br /><br />And true, they must have had some L21. Even in Bologna there is 10,3% L21, possibly the legacy of the Boii, who probably originated in southern Germany. But the majority of the British L21 appears to have been on the Isles for longer, I surmise it's from the earliest q-Celtic wave which may well have arrived in the middle Bronze age.<br /><br />An important question, to which also Apostatesimpressions alludes to, is whether the Belgae were in any way Germanic or rather straightforwardly Celtic. The link you provided suggests the latter to be true, on the basis of recorded place names and personal names. The association with the Germanics is explained as merely refering to the Belgae's roots in the country east of the Rhine, what Caesar called Germania.<br /><br />Judging from the Eupedia maps, S21 peaks in the Netherlands and eastern Friesland, both Germanic speaking areas. It correlates with known Germanic influence very well, except for the relatively high incidence in Austria – I guess the ancient Norici, whose language isn't known well, may originally have been closer to Germanics than to Celts, an idea the Eurologist often expressed too. In contrast, the Romance speaking parts of the old Belgic realm are more U152/S28 than S21, although S21 is quite strong towards its eastern fringe, but we must not forget that there was also a real Frankish invasion and settlement. After all the Franks even gave their name to France.<br />Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89748853361653529672014-01-19T03:33:10.563+02:002014-01-19T03:33:10.563+02:00@Simon_W
I would really be interested in Alsatian...@Simon_W<br /><br />I would really be interested in Alsatian and Pomeranian German samples, as that is about 1/4 of my ancestry. I wonder if they are ever going to test some of these people. Didn't they test a tooth of the Armsbury Archer, or someone like that, and find that his enamel showed he grew up around central Europe (Austria)? <br /><br />@apostateimpressions<br /><br />I believe the Belgae may be an intermediary type. The Romans called them Gallo-Germanic and it seems a few of the tribes may have spoken more of a Germanic language. However, Germanic and Celtic R1b have the same parent, so how different can they really be? Romans couldn't tell Northern Europeans apart except for clothes and language.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5631045748570559342014-01-18T16:54:46.628+02:002014-01-18T16:54:46.628+02:00But while we're at it, it would be equally int...But while we're at it, it would be equally interesting to have some autosomal a-DNA from Elbe Germanic tribes and from Celts and Gallo-Romans from southwestern Germany and Switzerland. Then we could calculate how Germanic the Alemannic speaking dialect group in southwestern Germany, Switzerland and the Alsace region really is. The problem is very similar to the one in England: A Romanized Celtic population experiences Germanic influx after the Romans left and shifts the language to a Germanic one. From my trials with the Dodecad oracle I can say that if we take the German_D sample as an approximation to the Germanics, then, surprisingly, the Gallo-Romans in southwestern Germany and Switzerland appear to have been North Italian-like. Which makes me think of a thick Raetic substrate under the dominant Celtic layer.<br /><br />But leaving such ethnocentric issues asside, I would love to see more ancient y- and autosomal DNA from all of Western Eurasia and northern Africa, and from the Mesolithic to the Iron age. Especially we need more from eastern and southeastern Europe and from the northwest. And while the hunter-gatherer – early farmer encounter has got quite some treatment by now, we still need to learn much more about the dramatic changes during the chalcolithic and bronze age in particular.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2416915627563587512014-01-18T07:12:20.334+02:002014-01-18T07:12:20.334+02:00Did anyone else hear the rumor that La Brana 1'...Did anyone else hear the rumor that La Brana 1's yDNA is C-V20? Very interesting, if true. Supposedly the paper comes out in 10 days.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62918401296621565122014-01-17T04:46:15.557+02:002014-01-17T04:46:15.557+02:00Bodmer has surmised the same as everyone else. He ...Bodmer has surmised the same as everyone else. He should give some figures if he has analysed the data. How much of British ancestry is Germanic? Give me figures for each region. When is he going to open up the data to all other researchers? Or is it a secret? Likely the British establishment does not consider it PC.<br /><br />Why has no researcher examined the autosomal data from AS burials. Is science quite dead in Britain?<br /><br />Interesting, were the Belgae Celtic or Germanic?<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgaeapostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19459079725009062932014-01-16T12:26:02.376+02:002014-01-16T12:26:02.376+02:00On the other hand it doesn't overlap well with...On the other hand it doesn't overlap well with the distribution of Danish place names, so presumably it's more a matter of relative isolation.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-325937588173201172014-01-16T12:15:43.372+02:002014-01-16T12:15:43.372+02:00@ Chad Rohlfsen
Interesting links, thank you!
I a...@ Chad Rohlfsen<br /><br />Interesting links, thank you!<br />I agree that the similarity of the southeastern cluster with Belgium must be due to the Belgae, not to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings as the texts suggest - the latter influences are rather reflected in the observed similarity with Germany and Denmark. Moreover the Danish influence proper was strongest in northeastern England, so this may have caused the northeast to form its own cluster.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23160938905906477252014-01-16T05:29:26.959+02:002014-01-16T05:29:26.959+02:00@ Simon_W
I'm not so sure about the Walloons...@ Simon_W <br /><br />I'm not so sure about the Walloons. It is possible. We need old samples. The Belgae should have had a decent amount of L-21 and possibly similar I varieties found in the isles. Modern Belgium is only part of the old Belgae realm. The Belgic tribes covered everything West of the Rhine, to the present day Eastern border of Normandy. I am curious if the Belgic tribes of Britain had something to do with the 'invitation' of West Germanic tribes (old neighbors, and partial cousins if the Roman accounts are true), all grouped and labeled as Saxons, as S-21's strongest signals are in those old Belgic areas. <br />Yes, you're right that everything came in at some point from the continent. I think with all of this pots are people stuff coming up now, it may be safe to assume these people with hill-forts, coins, and wheeled pottery were certainly all Belgic, at least in part. Who knows how long they had been living there, maybe forgetting that they had crossed the channel 2-300 years ago or so. Hopefully some samples will be published this year and this debate about replacement vs. integration will end.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26656358422220846092014-01-14T21:12:23.238+02:002014-01-14T21:12:23.238+02:00I would bet the R1b variant typical of the Belgae ...I would bet the R1b variant typical of the Belgae was U152 aka S28, and that they didn't have much U106/S21. It would make sense if their autosomal makeup was best preserved in Belgium, especially in the Walloons - and in the Dodecad K12b analysis, the Belgian sample isn't very similar to the Dutch sample, and presumably even less to the Anglo-Saxons. In the end everything came from the continent sooner or later, and there may have been pre-Germanic links to northern Europe too...Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62569915994151655622014-01-14T06:05:41.122+02:002014-01-14T06:05:41.122+02:00Here's a couple links on British testing. Inte...Here's a couple links on British testing. Interesting reading.<br /><br />http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/features/what-makes-british<br /><br />http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-07/04/genetic-mapping-britain/viewgallery/285522<br /><br />Now to pick apart what is native, Belgae, Saxon and Dane.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73995351279957413722014-01-14T05:10:43.863+02:002014-01-14T05:10:43.863+02:00Perhaps, a whole round of samples from Wales, Midl...Perhaps, a whole round of samples from Wales, Midlands, SE and NE England; and testing from samples of Belgae and Saxon burials on both sides of the Channel and Sea will be necessary. Probably not coming in the near future. Does anyone know if they have started autosomal testing on any of the old graves, including Sutton Hoo?Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1212651974896045582014-01-13T04:39:53.897+02:002014-01-13T04:39:53.897+02:00I think that we should not forget the Belgae, when...I think that we should not forget the Belgae, when speaking of England and the Saxon input. The East Midlands, down to 2/3 across the south coast was Belgic people. At least the ruling class and culture How much the genes moved towards the continent prior to the Saxon invasion is the thing that should be sorted out first. Then we can measure the Saxon influence. We need autosomal data from those Saxon graves to know what the true effect was. <br /><br />http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml#BelgaeChadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10871345797758860912014-01-12T15:20:36.985+02:002014-01-12T15:20:36.985+02:00Btw, of interest, the progression of the English-C...Btw, of interest, the progression of the English-Cornish language border:<br /><br />http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cornish_language_shift.svg<br /><br />Too late for Anglo-Saxons marching in, they merely admixed with already mixed English neighbours.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21496120427330912052014-01-12T14:24:18.249+02:002014-01-12T14:24:18.249+02:00Apostateimpressions, that Spiegel article is writt...Apostateimpressions, that Spiegel article is written in a very unscientific language, presumably to make it more readable for complete laymen. What do they mean by „Frisian y-chromosome segment“?? But I believe I've heard about this research before, they compared the y-DNA of England, Wales and Friesland and found the English to be much closer to the Friesians than to the Welsh. This is actually what I'm saying too, as far as y-DNA is concerned. The map is a bit odd, with Cornwall apparently being more „Frisian“ than most of the remaining south of England. However, if the Eupedia map of R1b-U106, aka R1b-S21 is correct, and I assume it's correct, then the Welsh can only have negligible Germanic admixture, because from that map it's obvious that R1b-U106 is strongly correlated with Germanic influence, and there are no truly Germanic admixed populations who have little or none of it. So it would be a mystery how the Welsh could have acquired Germanic admixture without acquiring R1b-U106 as well. But that said we can also see a little bit of Germanic admixture in Cornwall there (5-10% R1b-U106), and it's not clear to me what that British_D sample was composed of – clearly it cannot be purely Welsh, otherwise it would be called Welsh_D. But, it seems to be similarly Celtic as the Cornish sample. Therefore the Celtic Britons were probably a bit more Celtic than either samples. But on the other hand, the Dutch_D sample isn't identical to the Anglo-Saxons either. The Angles and Saxons were from the area where in the iron age the Jastorf culture was flourishing. The Dutch in contrast are from the area of the Harpstedt-Nienburger group and from farther southwest of it. It's not even undisputed if that latter culture was already Germanic and when it had become so. And there were similar cultural differences in more ancient periods, like in the late bronze age: the Netherlands rather belonged to the Urnfield groups than to the Nordic bronze culture, and already in the Chalcolithic the two areas belonged to different groups of the TRB. And this long history of differences can also be seen physically: The Dutch are on average very leptoprosopic (narrow faced), the Saxons (and Angles) had and have more Cromagnoid admixture. And after all, Dutch, the official language of the Netherlands, comes from the Frankish, not from the Saxons. But of course, there are also areas of Saxon and Frisian dialect in the Netherlands. It's true that the homeland of the Angles and Jutes became quite depopulated when they emigrated, that's why the remainders became assimilated by the incoming Danes. The Saxon area however remained Saxon, and the Low German dialects are still derived from Old Saxon. In short, while the Celtic Britons were a little more Celtic than the Cornwall_1KG sample, the Anglo-Saxons were a bit more eastern genetically than the Dutch_D Sample.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31054048488821634332014-01-12T11:43:14.829+02:002014-01-12T11:43:14.829+02:00terry said "Where did you read that? Although...terry said "Where did you read that? Although I have long suspected that to be the case I have never seen any paper suggesting it to be so. It certainly makes sense to me in many different ways."<br /><br />I have been racking my memory trying to think where I read this (in the last 6 months I’m sure) but I can’t remember. If I come across it again I will let you know.<br />Adrian Purcell Heathcotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676956502408423600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15177272686434677822014-01-12T01:14:51.415+02:002014-01-12T01:14:51.415+02:00There's a distinction between North and South ...There's a distinction between North and South Wales as the North is much more mountainous.<br /><br />Personally i'd expect DNA from North Wales to contain lots of interesting secrets but whether those secrets were Celtic or pre-Celtic I wouldn't want to bet. I think those mountains may have been a refuge from both Celtic and Germanic invasions.<br /><br />(The latter based on nothing more than climbing in north wales and noticing (or imagining) different phenotypes.)<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65291353212660507362014-01-11T08:02:24.461+02:002014-01-11T08:02:24.461+02:00Simon, yet most Welsh and Cornish men have the Fri...<i>Simon, yet most Welsh and Cornish men have the Frisian Y chromosome segment, which implies that most of their male lines are AS. Southern Ireland has much lower levels. So I doubt that the Welsh function well as an approximation to the Celtic British.</i><br /><br />Apostate, it is very unlikely for most Welsh or Cornish to possess Anglo-Saxon admixture. That is because their native languages were in inferior status all through their existence under the English rule. So a Welsh, Cornish, Gaelic Scot or Irish person admixing with an Anglic-speaking person would most probably switch to the Anglic language. Thus the genetic segment in Britain you associate with Anglo-Saxons should be something native to Britain and, to a lesser extent, Ireland and thus not necessarily connected to the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Maybe Anglo-Saxons increased its levels in the historically Anglic-speaking parts of Britain, but that is all. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31320589979361534112014-01-10T05:55:34.524+02:002014-01-10T05:55:34.524+02:00Sorry, page one of the link:
http://www.spiegel.d...Sorry, page one of the link:<br /><br />http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-anglo-saxon-invasion-britain-is-more-germanic-than-it-thinks-a-768706.htmlapostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85519039260541064262014-01-10T05:52:24.763+02:002014-01-10T05:52:24.763+02:00Simon, yet most Welsh and Cornish men have the Fri...Simon, yet most Welsh and Cornish men have the Frisian Y chromosome segment, which implies that most of their male lines are AS. Southern Ireland has much lower levels. So I doubt that the Welsh function well as an approximation to the Celtic British.<br /><br />http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-anglo-saxon-invasion-britain-is-more-germanic-than-it-thinks-a-768706-2.html<br /><br />The AS was not a male invasion, the entire AS relocated to Britain and left their homeland empty of people. We would expect heavy AS input also on the female side.<br /><br />quote:<br /><br />Entire family clans set out to sea, usually in the spring and summer when the water was calm. Their ships were bulging with household goods, cows and horses. According to an old chronicle, the land of the Angles was soon "abandoned."apostateimpressionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992369104954433139noreply@blogger.com