tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4816856778403372834..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Central European farmers not descended from local hunter-gatherers (Bramanti et al. 2009)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22361089819882839552009-09-16T09:40:59.253+03:002009-09-16T09:40:59.253+03:00I am not convinced by the conclusions of this pape...I am not convinced by the conclusions of this paper. Wolfgang Haaks paper shows Haplogroup U, H and K living together in the same high density community in Germany during the late neolithic (4000-5000 years). H was in the minority.<br /><br />We know that mobile hunter gathers had spaced children to cope with the lifestyle. A child had to be old enough to survive before the mother could have another child.<br /><br />We also know that the early sedentary farmers had no such constraints and bred like rabbits. <br /><br />It has been suggested that there is a genetic and/or dietary component to this difference.<br /><br />One possible explanation for the high percentage of Haplogroup H in Europe is that this Haplogroup is simply better able to expand rapidly when the opportunity arises.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71615502190296018812009-09-08T09:58:14.631+03:002009-09-08T09:58:14.631+03:00Pre-Columbian North America may be another good ex...Pre-Columbian North America may be another good example. Farmers and hunter-gatherers lived side-by-side; sometimes peacefully, sometimes not. AFAIK there is no documentation that either group was above-average, particularly violent before the Europeans made them battle each other.<br /><br />What may be important is that even during the LBK "Blitz," things would have appeared somewhat slow on a generational time frame. The hunter-gatherers saw a couple more settlements in their region during their lifetime, of people who seemed to compete little for the wild life, but brought with them the opportunity to barter (say, grains, ceramic vessels, string/rope, clothing, hand-crafted vanity items vs. stones, axes, furs, collected berries and nuts, <i>other, different</i> hand-crafted vanity items on the other side, and also brought with them exotic, pretty women.<br /><br />On the flip side, the MtDNA seems to support theories that claim early farmers were (at least partially) matriarchal, with <i>farming</i> women very protective of their farming knowledge, rights, standing, and their being the sole source of children. <br /><br />It may have been a strong taboo for a farmer's boy to bring home a "dirty, poor, uneducated tom-boy girl from the forest." If they eloped, her MtDNA would have remained with the hunter-gatherers.<br /><br />Also, at least during the first several generations of expansion, it is likely that the hunter-gatherers would have had the better weapons and better training/use of weapons. I don't see (initially) the aggressive spread of y-DNA that Europeans later documented throughout the world, and the related rapid inclusion of "native" MtDNA from multiple "illegitimate" children of mistresses. The farmers would not have been dominant like that, until they far outnumbered the hunter-gatherers (500 to 2,000 years later, depending on location).<br /><br />Stay tuned for y-DNA and perhaps, one day, x-DNA analyses... ;)eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37288833018481369842009-09-07T11:36:49.887+03:002009-09-07T11:36:49.887+03:00"this pattern of replacement or swamping is k..."this pattern of replacement or swamping is known from the nordic and finnic colonisation of saami areas". <br /><br />Not only. Perhaps the same process was involved in the replacement of Neanderthals.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82795571900374702942009-09-07T11:06:42.440+03:002009-09-07T11:06:42.440+03:00I am not really suprised at all, this pattern of r...I am not really suprised at all, this pattern of replacement or swamping is known from the nordic and finnic colonisation of saami areas where the saami behaived as peaceful retreaters in most cases as they where quickly outnumbered resulting in the modern saami settlement restricted to highland or remote areas with minimal genetic inprint in the earlier settlement areas, however of course it is possible that the saamis in these long gone areas had a different genetic profiles of the saamis known today.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139839082929635260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32918790697672283602009-09-06T19:20:21.392+03:002009-09-06T19:20:21.392+03:00Re the other mutation present in the Ancient Europ...Re the other mutation present in the Ancient Europeans, 16249C, we have two entry in Mitosearch: GTF6R and VW7QM, and they are K1a like me.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47249446330794669392009-09-06T17:46:54.325+03:002009-09-06T17:46:54.325+03:00Ponto says: “Europeans today have a unique set of ...Ponto says: “Europeans today have a unique set of haplogroups containing some of those of previous inhabitants of Europe but almost showing no flow on genetic relationship”.<br /><br />If we had found L, M or D in ancient Europeans, we could think that there is no flow, but founding H, U, K, etc., sometimes of a different line than today, we can think that we are always playing at home. Probably modern haplogroups continue some haplogroups that were rare and that have survived, and other then more diffused are extinct, but certainly we are the descendants of those Europeans.<br />K 224c/311c is mine, and probably K 224c/258g/311c has become extinct or has had a back mutation, what does it matter? We are always playing at home.<br />That Oetzi has lived here, in Italy, perhaps with a different haplotype now extinct, demonstrates always that K was born and flourished here and not elsewhere.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63553312568432650312009-09-06T15:08:33.131+03:002009-09-06T15:08:33.131+03:00Glad I am mtDNA V. Its pedigree while disputed due...Glad I am mtDNA V. Its pedigree while disputed due to lack of finds in not so ancient inhabitants of Iberia, has a purely European origin. mtDNA K is somewhat foreign, but Oetzi's odd haplogroup shows that it was more diverse in the Iron Age.<br /><br />The farming communities may have been violent. Where in the world now is violence not found? Some cases of people who had their heads bashed in, in Neolithic times do not make it the rule for all those previous inhabitants of Europe. In Malta there were no weapons found archeologically until after the coming of Bronze Age people and there are signs there that the island was inhabited by Neolithic peoples 7 Kya. Oetzi, the Alpine Iron Age man, himself died of the results of an arrow wound.<br /><br />The Neolithic age farmers moved about Europe in a saltatory manner, forming colony like communities complete with wheat, barley, pigs, sheep, goats, cattle and their pottery. They moved over long distances by land or sea to places where agriculture would flourish. They naturally were surrounded by in situ Hunter/Gatherers wherever they went. You cannot rule out the predominance of Hunter/Gatherers genetically over Neolithic farmers just based on comparing the haplogroups modern Europeans ca 21st century with long dead Europeans whether they were Hunter/Gatherers or not. It has been shown from Neolithic age human remains that those people were not continuous as far as haplogroups go with modern European groups. So modern Europeans are neither like the Hunter/Gatherers according to the study, nor like Neolithic Europeans according to other studies. Europeans today have a unique set of haplogroups containing some of those of previous inhabitants of Europe but almost showing no flow on genetic relationship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88417409987727416672009-09-06T01:53:04.222+03:002009-09-06T01:53:04.222+03:00And also K has been halved, but farmer had multipl...And also K has been halved, but farmer had multiplaied it for 4. But we are always playing at home.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88017310632984043502009-09-06T00:45:26.584+03:002009-09-06T00:45:26.584+03:00Did the study count samples that were identical in...Did the study count samples that were identical in haplotype and haplogroup and came from the same site as a single sample? Was there any criticism of the 2005 study that found 25% N1a?<br /><br />This study does constitute pretty good evidence in favor of a population expansion instead of cultural transmission, but it hasn't settled the matter. Dienekes talks about an 8-fold reduction in U frequency, but there's a similar problem with the farmer mtdna. Their main haplogroup, N1a, has suffered a 25-fold reduction. And today the rate of H in Europe is 50%, while the study found it at only 16% in the farmers, so that's another big change, a 3-fold increase.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40093958616838084442009-09-05T15:32:58.449+03:002009-09-05T15:32:58.449+03:005600BCE: Brian fagan, The Long Summer.How Climate ...5600BCE: Brian fagan, The Long Summer.How Climate Changed Civilization. This theory of the farmers on the North shore of Black Sea who migrated to North giving life to the Linearbandkeramik peoples and modern Europeans is a good theory. They probably were R1b1b2 and spoke an Indo-European language. Having among them many mtDNA K, born in Italy, should make us think to a previous origin, at list in part, from Italy- North Balkans. I believe always to the hypothesis that Rhaeto-Etruscan-Pelasgians were linked to an ancient phase of Indo-European.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85794819301312824612009-09-05T11:57:13.229+03:002009-09-05T11:57:13.229+03:00"Shepherds were much more likely to be Hunter..."Shepherds were much more likely to be Hunter-Gatherers than were the farmers". <br /><br />We have three separate categories here. Farmers are no more likely to be hunter-gatherers than are shepherds. If anything farmers would have more down time to go hunting than would shepherds. Besides which I'm pretty sure the 'Flooding of the Black Sea Lowlands' took place long before 'Circa 5550 BCE'.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83053884106761316732009-09-05T11:24:13.902+03:002009-09-05T11:24:13.902+03:00Sumerian & Sanskrit stories about the conflict...<i>Sumerian & Sanskrit stories about the conflicts between the Farmers (likely Lowlander & \/alley dwellers) & The Shepherds (likely Highlanders & Mountain dwellers), the most famous being the Cain & able story. Shepherds were much more likely to be Hunter-Gatherers than were the farmers</i><br /><br />The contrast between Farmers and Shepherds occurs within Neolithic society itself. Sheep (and other domesticated animals) arrived with farmers. Hunters hunted animals, they didn't herd them.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5230394488046720302009-09-05T11:10:11.535+03:002009-09-05T11:10:11.535+03:00Dienekes,
What I mean is that the ancient hunter-...Dienekes,<br /><br />What I mean is that the ancient hunter-gatherer MtDNA has survived quite well - both the observed one (which excludes smaller percentage haplogroups because of the small sample size), and the inferred one (much of today's MtDNA in Europe is thought to be ancient European, present at least during post-LGM expansion, and likely 10,000 or more years before then). Sure, U* was reduced from 80% or something to 15% - 20%, those things happen, and it apparently was not farmer MtDNA that makes up for the difference, but mostly other old European MtDNA.<br /><br />Likewise, we don't have the slightest idea where that N1a came from. It could well have been present at the same 0.2% level Eurasian-wide as it is now. Apparently, the early LBK farmer families had it. It could very well be chance, it could very, very well be just one of the local semi-settled hunter-gatherer++ haplogroups in that valley of the Danube where these already semi-settled folks (fishing, triticum, and flax while modern farmers came from Anatolia) figured out a way to make those foreign crops and animals grow and live in that much different climate...<br /><br />For those reasons, what we can't deduce is this:<br /><br /> <i>What we do know is this: first farmers were not local foragers who abandoned the old ways for the new ones.</i><br /><br />or:<br /><br /><i>Europeans have very little mitochondrial descent from the earliest European populations.</i><br /><br />Quite the contrary.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2565813052908839492009-09-05T02:36:36.247+03:002009-09-05T02:36:36.247+03:00Great notice on this skull find.It makes a lot of ...Great notice on this skull find.It makes a lot of sense. It also reminds me of all the ancient Akkadian, Sumerian & Sanskrit stories about the conflicts between the Farmers (likely Lowlander & \/alley dwellers) & The Shepherds (likely Highlanders & Mountain dwellers), the most famous being the Cain & able story. Shepherds were much more likely to be Hunter-Gatherers than were the farmers, but I do think it quite likely Sumerian & Sanskit speaking Highlanders from south of the Black Sea, all the way east to Kashmir, were likely both Farmers , Shepherds, Hunter Gatherer's & originators of Bronze `Age Metallurgy, \/iniculture, Trade cara\/ans, & big users of wheels, oxen, horses, baskets & pottery. They may be the leaders, whom led the migrations west from the Black Sea. some scholars say \/inca has the Earliest Finds of Written scripts.Jake myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15913033807159114554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49253032584562050892009-09-05T01:48:43.678+03:002009-09-05T01:48:43.678+03:00I can’t remember details, but a while ago I read a...I can’t remember details, but a while ago I read an article on Neolithic violence and tensions between farming communities and hunter-gatherers in Central Europe. Documented by individuals that showed signs of force that lead to death.<br /><br />The National Museum of Denmark in Copenhagen has a skull on display demonstrating late Neolithic violence.I once read elsewhere that this skull documentates violent tensions between Farming communities and hunter-gatherers.<br /><br />Porsmose,Skull<br />http://oldtiden.natmus.dk/udstillingen/bondestenalderen/slebne_oekser_af_flint/vaaben_vold_og_doed_i_bondestenalderen/language/uk/Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68124699547726231362009-09-04T22:18:16.246+03:002009-09-04T22:18:16.246+03:00It seems to me to be likely that the spread of the...It seems to me to be likely that the spread of these Farmers West/NW/SW into other parts of Europe from the Balkans & Eastern Europe is Directly Related to the permanent Great Flooding of the Black Sea Lowlands, which were likely Farming lands, which occurred Circa 5550 BCE. Such a disruption likely relocated Flood refugees up the western Ri\/eR \/alleys into the Balkans, Carpathians, & Central Europe, pushing their nati\/es further west & this Unstable Migration Period likely lasted a few hundred years.Jake myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15913033807159114554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6640730454571012912009-09-04T13:51:44.138+03:002009-09-04T13:51:44.138+03:00You know very well that arguing a few percentages ...<i>You know very well that arguing a few percentages over seven millennia is futile.</i><br /><br />An ~8-fold reduction in the frequency of the haplogroups prevalent in hunter-gatherers is not "a few percentages". The modern frequencies are well known and the ancient ones are reasonably estimated from a pre-Neolithic sample that is varied both geographically and temporally.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59661377907587943382009-09-04T13:42:06.018+03:002009-09-04T13:42:06.018+03:00You know very well that arguing a few percentages ...You know very well that arguing a few percentages over seven millennia is futile.<br /><br />You have to look at the origin and major inhabited regions and opportunities for huge multiplication of local groups. <br /><br />The widely advertised renditions of this paper are clearly overusing the available data and reasonable interpretation in every single aspect imaginable.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42678086914751986432009-09-04T13:03:09.567+03:002009-09-04T13:03:09.567+03:00Even today, I could show you small regions within ...<i>Even today, I could show you small regions within Europe with predominantly a single MtDNA sub-sub-group. That's just how local regions and their inhabitants work...</i><br /><br />The pre-Neolithic samples are not from a "local region" but include individuals from Germany to Russia and from 13,400 calBC to 2,250 calBC calBC. Non-U mtDNA is found only in the Ostorf site, which is both one of the latest ones and one that was an enclave of Mesolithic hunters surrounded by the Funnel Beaker culture.<br /><br />So, yes, the evidence for haplogroup U in pre-Neolithic populations is probably as good as it can get.<br /><br /><i>but still make up 11% (U5) and 10% (T) of modern Europeans.</i><br /><br />T is not necessarily pre-Neolithic:<br /><br />"We are cautious of interpreting this as a signature of<br />local admixture (17), particularly as the hunter-gatherer and<br />early farmer T2 types belong to different sublineages, but it is<br />notable that Ostorf is culturally a Mesolithic enclave<br />surrounded by Neolithic funnel beaker farmers and is the only<br />hunter-gatherer site where any non-U mtDNA types were<br />observed (Table 1)."<br /><br />As for U5 its frequency is:<br /><br />"Europeans today have moderate frequencies of U5 types,<br />ranging from about 1-5% along the Mediterranean coastline<br />to 5-7% in most core European areas, and rising to 10-20% in<br />northeastern European Uralic-speakers, with a maximum of<br />over 40% in the Scandinavian Saami."Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49995951259914768062009-09-04T12:30:50.213+03:002009-09-04T12:30:50.213+03:00MtDNA is fickle and any conclusions must be taken ...MtDNA is fickle and any conclusions must be taken with a grain of salt. Even today, I could show you small regions within Europe with predominantly a single MtDNA sub-sub-group. That's just how local regions and their inhabitants work...<br /><br />Clearly, there is nothing spectacular about the results. The farmer's MtDNA is largely of the same type that is widely spread within Europe, today (50% H, 11% J, 10% T, sizable K and T). <br /><br />So what, N1a is not predominant (while widely present), now. It happened to be accidentally overrepresented in a few families then - simply not meaningful. Pretty much all of the found "agricultural" MtDNA, with very little exception, is old (pre-LGM) European.<br /><br /><br />Similarly, the observed "hunter-gatherer" MtDNA - as expected - only provides a restricted snapshot of the known distributions - which are all not only old, but still make up 11% (U5) and 10% (T) of modern Europeans.<br /><br />Given the many chance developments and small population groups, it is outright laughable how anyone could argue for <b>discontinuity </b> versus <b>continuity </b>, based on these data.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53422098252767414262009-09-04T09:58:51.082+03:002009-09-04T09:58:51.082+03:00It seems to me that this paper demonstrates above ...It seems to me that this paper demonstrates above all one thing: that mtDNA K (mine), born probably from U8b in North Italy, is present among the hunter-gatherers, among the Neolithic farmers and among today’s European population (and not only). That YDNA R1b1b2 couldn’t have had the same destiny I’ll believe when a similar study will be done on YDNA.<br />Interestingly we don’t find, among the numerous U5b subclades, the Italian U5b3, that expanded surely to South, certainly with mtDNA K we find till Middle East and, if possible, YDNA R1b1b2.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.com