tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4759402723155995247..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Radiocarbon based chronology for ancient Egypt (Ramsey et al. 2010)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35831840428717628412010-07-21T08:21:58.772+03:002010-07-21T08:21:58.772+03:00Pconroy said: "Also, I think the Jewish relig...Pconroy said: "Also, I think the Jewish religion got it's start with Akhenaton, and his monotheism. Surely Moses led the monotheists out of Egypt, after the death of Akhenaton and the pogroms against monotheists."<br /><br />From a strict historical point of view based on Manetho and the "Book of Sothis" the Exodus occurs at the end of the rule of Amenhotep III, which means the Israelites left at the beginning of the reign of Akhenaten. Akhenaten's monotheism is thus interpreted as being a direct result of his experiencing the 10-plagues. That is, claiming the gods of Egypt were "worthless" and then becoming a monotheist like the Israelites already were.<br /><br />The Israelites would have been in the Sinai desert during the reign of Akhenaten. Akhenaten's monotheism is thus considered an unorthodox form of Yahwehism (Isaiah 19:19-25).siaxareshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13760582318392300829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55600323325200927472010-07-21T08:07:04.766+03:002010-07-21T08:07:04.766+03:00"I'm prepared to lay money on that expuls..."I'm prepared to lay money on that expulsion being the origin of the Exodus myth."<br /><br />This option doesn't really exist since the "Book of Sothis" and Manetho date the Exodus to the end of the reign of Amenhotep III. That is, both the Hyksos expulsion and the Exodus are covered, even though both events have been confused (i.e. Josephus). Syncellus thus in 810 AD knew precisely who the historical pharaoh of the Exodus was. Since then this seems to have been lost for some reason. <br /><br />The Book of Sothis dates the coming of Joseph specifically to year 4 of Apophis which means we can calculate the 2nd year of the 7 years of famine to year 24 of Apophis, the year Jacob became a permanent resident in Egypt, which in turn, is exactly 215 years from the Exodus. 215 years from the 24th of Apophis is the end of the rule of Amenhotep III. <br /><br />Per Kathleen Kenyon, Jericho fell to the Israelites between 1350-1325 BCE which also would date the Exodus during the time of Amenhotep III. Thus, speculation about the pharaoh of the Exodus is a little less optional than thought, at least from a historical (Manetho) and archaeological (Jericho) point of view. The new RC14 data solidifies the conventional dating as indicated.siaxareshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13760582318392300829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86108535274986425092010-07-09T02:19:35.899+03:002010-07-09T02:19:35.899+03:00"So they owed their power and most of the pop..."So they owed their power and most of the population to the Israelite Kingdom, their historical knowledge, myths and religious beliefs probably also mostly came from the Israelite refugees. The OT is the product of this genetic and cultural fusion between the two peoples after the collapse of the Israelite Kingdom". <br /><br />That's exactly how I see it.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62861533018162073962010-07-05T19:03:39.156+03:002010-07-05T19:03:39.156+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11240719382822073962010-07-05T15:44:12.721+03:002010-07-05T15:44:12.721+03:00Onur:
Yes, the Trojan War happened with a likelih...Onur:<br /><br />Yes, the Trojan War happened with a likelihood greater than 99.99% at the end of the 1st millennium BCE. <br /><br />It was also the time other destructions happened but we have no narrations of any kind about them. <br /><br />Do we have many blanks in our knowledge? Sure. Does it matter to make the Homer's narration essentially correct? Nope: we know that Troy, Athens and Mycenae existed back then and we know that Greeks had been expanding by sea (Crete, Cyprus, Italy and even arriving to Iberia in search of tin), so other major non-Greek trading cities such as Troy, once so strategical and influential in the Balcans and surroundings, or Ugarit were rivals to slain. <br /><br />However somehow the Greeks themselves fell in that hecatombe of the late Bronze Age. Winning too much may destroy you, it seems.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84606858525227667502010-07-05T11:55:44.105+03:002010-07-05T11:55:44.105+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43188431436842517592010-07-05T11:25:21.300+03:002010-07-05T11:25:21.300+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24996156988670385472010-07-04T05:38:42.561+03:002010-07-04T05:38:42.561+03:00"What do these myths have to do with archaeol..."What do these myths have to do with archaeology?" <br /><br />I was thinking more specifically of how Finkelstein connects various city ruins with the Israelite Kingdom (Omri and Ahab), and suggests that this Kingdom is the origin of many of the Judahite myths.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34247163644268045352010-07-04T04:41:01.835+03:002010-07-04T04:41:01.835+03:00"As far as I know and remember, Finkelstein a..."As far as I know and remember, Finkelstein also thinks that way" <br /><br />And so do I. I guess Finkelstein's connection of archeology to myth involves his description of places of worship in the region, and his interpretation of city ruins. <br /><br />"But the Bible (be it the OT part or the NT part) is overwhelmingly prose" <br /><br />Is that equally true of the Hebrew? I'd guess much of it is fairly easily remembered. After all many people even today can quote largwe tracts by memory.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39365150123713884962010-07-03T15:27:36.040+03:002010-07-03T15:27:36.040+03:00"But even then, there isn't any identifia..."But even then, there isn't any identifiable/verifiable historicity in Homeric epics",<br /><br />Troy was first discovered using the clues in Homer. That's quite a memory because it not only knew of Troy but its geography in great detail. <br /><br />But oral history can and usually does introduce many distortions, and the case of the Iliad is probably quite unique. An only slightly less important story in Greek mythology, the legend of Herakles (Hercules) makes him serving not Mycenae but nearby Argos, which is obviously an adaptation to a post-Mycenaean reality. <br /><br />Greek and Hebrew mythology have roughly similar timelines: their legends talk of epics of the Bronze Age but were not compilated properly until the early Classical period. <br /><br />However the religious and political emphasis in Hebrew mythology make it always more suspect of intentional deformation, because while there was no Mycenae nor Troy anymore when Homer's stories were written down, there was instead a whole ideology and political system gravitating around Jerusalem and it's strange god when the early Bible was compiled. <br /><br />So I'd say that Homer's epic and in general Greek "historical" mythology is somewhat more likely to be a honest account and not a case of "griot on pay-row". But the OT must also have some elements of truth, the problem, is to discern what is true, what purely false and what a half-truth (the worse type of lies because they can be very confusing).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60212273305168631922010-07-03T03:12:31.174+03:002010-07-03T03:12:31.174+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9086191611222904892010-07-02T06:03:43.074+03:002010-07-02T06:03:43.074+03:00"Which myths do you mean here?"
Josep..."Which myths do you mean here?" <br /><br />Joseph, the Exodus, Moses, the conquest, etc. <br /><br />"native rulers usually do not like them and try to remove their memories" <br /><br />And I think tha's what's happened here. <br /><br />"Also do not forget that we are dealing with a completely or almost completely illiterate society and culture here" <br /><br />But pre-literate societies can be remarkably good at retaining history, especially if it has been made into poetry. All the comments you've made regarding the ancient Israelites hold just as true for the Homeric epics.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32593767842537466332010-07-01T19:19:20.097+03:002010-07-01T19:19:20.097+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13939374859262342542010-07-01T15:00:08.212+03:002010-07-01T15:00:08.212+03:00onur, the rules say "avoid double posting&quo...onur, the rules say "avoid double posting", they do not say "triple post".Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60640984245494762782010-07-01T13:33:17.268+03:002010-07-01T13:33:17.268+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44970767226003534242010-07-01T13:14:17.891+03:002010-07-01T13:14:17.891+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19539198194937132842010-07-01T12:59:04.934+03:002010-07-01T12:59:04.934+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64057904964459985222010-07-01T05:31:33.552+03:002010-07-01T05:31:33.552+03:00"So you follow Finkelstein's views, eh?&q..."So you follow Finkelstein's views, eh?" <br /><br />Yes. His connection of myth to archeology is pretty convincing to me. Do you disagree? <br /><br />"Assyrians fought many peoples from the Middle East during Ahab's reign (Battle of Qarqar comes to mind), so it would have been just the right time for Egypt to take some action". <br /><br />In fact I think it was at that battle. Although Wiki says, 'The land of KUR Mu-us-ra- (sometimes identified with Egypt but possibly somewhere near Que) sent 1,000 soldiers', so perhaps Egypt wasn't involved. <br /><br />"That of course cannot prove that Bible writers knew anything about the Egyptian rule in much of Levant during the Late Bronze Age". <br /><br />Certainly not accurate memories. In fact the writers claim that their ancestors battled with the Philistines, although the Philistines they fought were presumably Egyptian mercanaries.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66890568791937941432010-06-30T01:34:18.224+03:002010-06-30T01:34:18.224+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45817122502131353932010-06-30T01:28:00.970+03:002010-06-30T01:28:00.970+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18488112323742056552010-06-29T06:30:58.048+03:002010-06-29T06:30:58.048+03:00"how many examples are there among modern hum..."how many examples are there among modern human communities that have managed to preserve their history rather accurately for such a long time purely by oral tradition?" <br /><br />I'm certainly not claiming accurately preserving their history, especially when we consider that even written history varies depending on the point of view being promoted. I understand that oral history can be reasonably accurate up to 200 years, after that it becomes altered considerably although some of the main elements will remain long after that length of time. <br /><br />"What is your explanation for Torah's origins and evolution (taking also in account oral dynamics)?" <br /><br />Pretty much collected and collated during Josiah's reign (late 600s), possible adapted from Hezekiah's earlier efforts of 50 years earlier. I doubt very much that it was in written form before that time, although some stories may have been. <br /><br />"During the Bronze Age collapse Egypt completely lost control of its Asian provinces" <br /><br />I presume you're talking about the period after Ramesses III (mid 1100s). But there still seems to have been contact after that period. Didn't some Pharaoh join King Ahab is his war against the Assyrians (mid 800s)? <br /><br />"Also do not forget the negative effects of the Bronze Age collapse on the preservation of cultural memories (including history)". <br /><br />But the compilation of the Torah is an attempt to justify a centralisation of Jewish identity. So the history it contains was used, as it so often is even today, to justify a particular political perspective. So hte actual 'truth' is less important than the 'message'.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1800410251720306812010-06-28T13:28:54.283+03:002010-06-28T13:28:54.283+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53215773248876601582010-06-26T04:53:48.252+03:002010-06-26T04:53:48.252+03:00"I seriously doubt that the escape of several..."I seriously doubt that the escape of several thousand state workers or slaves would have been cause for official celebration". <br /><br />Aren't you making the mistake of assuming the Exodus was in fact 'the escape of several thousand state workers or slaves'? The Hyksos were certainly not Egyptian slaves. So if the myth is based (however loosely) on the Hyksos expulsion we would expect to see it recorded in Egypt as a great victory. And this is exactly what we find with regard to the Hyksos. <br /><br />"There is also the problem of the success of the Jews escaping" <br /><br />I very much doubt that we actually could call any group 'Jews' before about 800 BC.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83015345670837917622010-06-26T01:23:34.035+03:002010-06-26T01:23:34.035+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89090297271280254402010-06-25T22:20:46.819+03:002010-06-25T22:20:46.819+03:00Actually I am surprised that any information on th...Actually I am surprised that any information on the Exodus survives in the written Egyptian records and not at the paucity of information.<br /><br />They are several instances were it was state policy to remove the complete reign of a pharaoh from the written record as it affronted some aspect of the state culture. Examples of this are Akhenaton and many of the early female pharaohs. <br /><br />I seriously doubt that the escape of several thousand state workers or slaves would have been cause for official celebration. They would have built no monuments to this event.<br /><br />There is also the problem of the success of the Jews escaping providing encouragement to others within the empire who may have been of similar situation and of like mind. Remember the Nat Turner Slave revolt in the early 1800s in Southside Virginia. One of the great concerns of the civil government was that the other slaves not find out the particulars of the revolt, only of the punishment of those that had revolted. Since there was no punishment for the escaped Jews, there would have absolutely no desire by the Egyptian government to spread the news of the escape of the Jews.<br /><br />By the way, How is the Commonwealth these days? I was born and raised in Norfolk and educated at that peculiar Virginia Institution in Lexington.Bolinagahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04540899814735176413noreply@blogger.com