tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4655481607214911366..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Origins of North African and Central/East European JewsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20124379460709056442012-08-11T23:26:26.301+03:002012-08-11T23:26:26.301+03:00I wonder what is known from genetic studies of *We...I wonder what is known from genetic studies of *Western* Ashkenazim specifically. They seem to be grouped together, apparently, with Eastern Ashkenazim in the recent studies, if they are even included. Linguistic research shows that the language of Western Ashkenazim spoken as a dialect among themselves is directly related to Eastern European Yiddish; however, with no Slavic component. The two languages clearly had a common root, and then diverged when the major portion of the German Jewish population migrated to eastern Europe and later merged with other Jewish groups. Genetic studies of Western Ashkenazim would help to reveal the origins of Jews before their journey into Eastern Europe. I have read that there is some sort of discernible genetic difference between eastern and western Ashkenazim, but have not been able to find information beyond that. I would guess the two populations are still very close, but that studies of Western Ashkenazim would be revealing. Have these studies been done? In a generation there will be many fewer W. Ashkenazim to study. The community is relatively small and "intermarrying" with other Jewish groups. Does anyone know?edrnchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12043158916916809556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75548786442153002332012-08-10T18:15:53.921+03:002012-08-10T18:15:53.921+03:00@Sgt. Gil
As someone who tries to stay neutral an...@Sgt. Gil <br />As someone who tries to stay neutral and as someone who is of Palestinian Christian descent and Haplo G carrier, let me say this: I have no doubt that the majority of people in the ME carry a ancient Semitic component in them via admixture. For instance a married in relative of mine is by his own account a descendent of nomadic Arab Christian-Bedouins. <br />Plus, I never believed that all of today’s Arab-Bedouins are all actually pure ethnic Arabs, but rather likely represent older Semitic layers, this can be observed with the Nabateans who represent Arab and semi-nomadic Aramaic layers. Plus you have the linguistic process of Aramaic/Arab - ization.<br />(It would be interesting to see a breakdown on all Arabic speaking Bedouins.)<br /><br />Also I have the impression there is a process of seeing Canaanites under every rock in the Levant as a result of today’s geopolitical tensions. Ignoring the semitization of other ancient non-Semitic populations in the region. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a difference in the ancient population structure along the coasts of the Levant and the populations living more inland. Gaza for instance was heathen to the core till they were forced to convert to Christianity in 407 A.D.Katharóshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16649693310029639154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32697700541590564412012-08-10T16:34:41.971+03:002012-08-10T16:34:41.971+03:00Yes, all people are a mix, but in the context of E...Yes, all people are a mix, but in the context of Eran Elhaik's paper to what degree are Anatolian/Caucasian elements among Jews from 600 AD or 3,000 BC? <br /><br />An extinct Judaeo-Slavic language [K'naan] was said to have been used in Eastern Europe centuries ago; it was replaced by Yiddish. This would indicate [to me] that a large and dominating migration came eastward into Slavic lands. A Khazar-influence on Jewry [in my opinion] is probable. What is unknown is the extent.Sgt. Gilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16093774878169751410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47001085197681878852012-08-10T07:16:02.505+03:002012-08-10T07:16:02.505+03:00Interstingly, as much as this paper actually prove...Interstingly, as much as this paper actually proves anything, it also disproves the anti-semitic variant of the Khazar Hypothesis, which states that there is *no* genetic link between the Jews of ancient Judea and the Jews of Eastern Europe.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389602137217799305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16399178535200401572012-08-10T06:19:23.098+03:002012-08-10T06:19:23.098+03:00"The Jewish people were a 'mix' from ..."The Jewish people were a 'mix' from the beginning" <br /><br />Exactly. As is every human population. There is no such thing as a purebred human population.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17090290586495532402012-08-09T15:49:17.905+03:002012-08-09T15:49:17.905+03:00Are we missing something over the semantics of “Se...Are we missing something over the semantics of “Semitic origin,” as a large portion of Jewish ancestry [J2a, G, R etc] were unlikely to originally have been Semitic-language speakers and were possibly part of the Hurrian migrations [Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth and Kiriath-Jearim were “Hivite” cities that became Judah-ite - Joshua 9]. The Jewish people were a “mix” from the beginning with some strong Anatolian [and Caucasus-?] roots.Sgt. Gilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16093774878169751410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9772839925092824322012-08-09T11:41:09.321+03:002012-08-09T11:41:09.321+03:00BTW, I disagree with a great majority of Eran Elha...BTW, I disagree with a great majority of Eran Elhaik's conclusions (=his interpretation of the results). I only commend him for his use of many methods of genetic analysis on a dense population dataset.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-531927687567471762012-08-09T05:12:08.145+03:002012-08-09T05:12:08.145+03:00I was wondering which Caucasus populations compris...I was wondering which Caucasus populations comprised the IBD comparisons with East European Jews. Hopefully not the Azeri/Mountain Jews, but in any case, it would be worthwhile for the authors to present the IBD's with specific Caucasus populations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61075743969755443632012-08-08T22:56:13.477+03:002012-08-08T22:56:13.477+03:00Thank you for reviewing my paper. First, regarding...Thank you for reviewing my paper. First, regarding the admixture analysis and the choice of Palestinians as ancestral group to Jews. That choice is justified by the common Semitic origin of the Hebrews and the Palestinians and their continuous admixture throughout history. Palestinians have some Northern African ancestry, but that does not disqualify them as proper surrogate population as it may derive from admixture with the Egyptian, which is again, part of Judean history. The important point about the admixture analysis is that Eastern European Jews share a very large portion of Caucasus ancestry that is otherwise restricted to Caucasus populations.<br /><br />As for the Druze, they were analyzed with a combined group of Iranian and Turks. Ryan correctly stated that the movement began in Egypt but the large stock of people came from Iran and the southern Turkic region. They migrated to Lebanon and Israel in the 13th century. Shlush et al. (2008) and myself traced their origin to the near east, which explains the proximity to Eastern European Jews (common Turkic origin), yet no overlap.Eran Elhaikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08279065813521404465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42132714907397258872012-08-08T21:05:22.303+03:002012-08-08T21:05:22.303+03:00I think it's careless use of language, because...I think it's careless use of language, because the Druze are analyzed in supervised admixture analysis with Turks as a parental population. The Druze are indeed more "Anatolian-like" than "Palestinian-like".Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66492828279671203282012-08-08T20:59:56.397+03:002012-08-08T20:59:56.397+03:00There's something odd about the elHaik paper. ...There's something odd about the elHaik paper. I can't find anything that bears out his reference to Druze as a primarily Turkic people. Historically, the movement seems to come from Egypt and quickly land in the Jebel Druze. The wiki page has a pretty wide-ranging discussion of recent data and pre-genetic testing theories of Druze origins, and none of them mention Turkic stock. One mentions Turkish Cypriot clustering, but that's a shaky bridge toward a Turkic origin.ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01853814957637810300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41038737745009528292012-08-08T13:39:29.408+03:002012-08-08T13:39:29.408+03:00I do acknownledge that Mozabites have some recent ...I do acknownledge that Mozabites have some recent West African ancestry. That is mostly why they drag towards SSA , more so than North_Moroccan , Tunsian and Algerian samples.Ashtagahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939802256329547706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90664710842647577882012-08-08T13:34:46.558+03:002012-08-08T13:34:46.558+03:00Update : At times you do not make sense. North Afr...Update : At times you do not make sense. North African Jews differ from North Africans because they are relatively very recent West Asian newcomers (late Classical Antiquity and 1492 Inquisition). It has nothing to do with the African ancestry of North Africans which is actually native to North Africa. If you compare North African Jews to their Muslim counterparts , you can see the Jews have very high Caucasus/West Asian ancestry , totally nearly absent in the formers. Note that the common SW Asian and especially prominent Mediterranean ancestry in Jews , North Africans , Levantines and South Europeans (Sardinians , Cypriots etc..) reflect a common Human settling of the Mediterranean shores howeverAshtagahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939802256329547706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47672927514407073002012-08-08T13:34:25.061+03:002012-08-08T13:34:25.061+03:00Well, analysis of Mozabites indicates that the Afr...Well, analysis of Mozabites indicates that the African ancestry is 100-131 generations old:<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/comparing-five-methods-of-admixture.html<br /><br />I'd say that different factors contribute to the fact that they're different; Sub-Saharan in Muslims and West_Asian in Jews, for example.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67898953587672399552012-08-08T13:29:32.377+03:002012-08-08T13:29:32.377+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ashtagahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939802256329547706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45422740679205706012012-08-08T13:04:30.473+03:002012-08-08T13:04:30.473+03:00There is the question how much modern populations ...There is the question how much modern populations represent ancient populations. This holds true for virtually every part of the world, even for the regions that have preserved their languages all along. In the absence of ancient DNA, the best thing to do is to apply as many methods of genetic analysis as possible on as many relevant modern populations as possible to test various hypotheses. Eran Elhaik apparently tried to do just that. How successful he is is open to debate.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25138314356697685482012-08-08T10:06:24.113+03:002012-08-08T10:06:24.113+03:00im thankful for the information emerging on jewish...im thankful for the information emerging on jewish ancestors origins my self, as someone of partial jewish descent. thank you D. for all ypour postings and helping us lay folks stay informed!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com