tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post446759328685582017..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Clustering of European Y-STRsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3365561373704516632010-11-12T15:48:31.862+02:002010-11-12T15:48:31.862+02:00The pale blue cluster (in the eastern Balkans and ...The pale blue cluster (in the eastern Balkans and central Anatolia) seem to be based solely on samples from the Dobrudja region in the Balkans...<br /><br />Regarding cluster 20 (grey), present on the northwestern Black Sea coast and in Slovakia, could somebody explain it?Der Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12166603304331471676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11106308925339201762010-11-09T23:19:02.473+02:002010-11-09T23:19:02.473+02:00Hmmm interesting.
Finland has a navy shading to a...Hmmm interesting.<br /><br />Finland has a navy shading to a purple in Northern Russia.<br /><br />The second ranked haplogroup is Iberia is navy in Spain shading to purple in Portugal.<br /><br />There is also a that similar looking purple patch in Hungary (primary haplogroup). Anyone know the primary Y-Haplogroups in Hungary? Don't they have a Finno Ugric connection?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52584410788855191002010-11-08T14:46:01.166+02:002010-11-08T14:46:01.166+02:00I apologize, I typed I2 when I meant I (in modern ...I apologize, I typed I2 when I meant I (in modern nomenclature). You are absolutely correct that I1 and I2 in modern nomenclature have different regions of prevalence - and perhaps, cluster (4) on this study simply is some strange superposition of these two - similar what appears to be happening with R1b.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31730191787141176512010-11-08T08:06:57.616+02:002010-11-08T08:06:57.616+02:00Thats what my sources claim:
North Germany:
I1: 1...Thats what my sources claim:<br /><br />North Germany:<br />I1: 18%<br />I2a: 1%<br />I2b: 5%<br />R1a: 23%<br />R1b: 38%<br />G2a: 3.5%<br />J2: 4%<br />J1: 0.5%<br />E1b1b: 5.5%<br />T: 1%<br />Q: 2%<br />N1c1: 1.5%<br /><br />East Germany:<br />I1: 19.5%<br />I2a: 1%<br />I2b: 3%<br />R1a: 25%<br />R1b: 36%<br />G2a: 4%<br />J2: 2%<br />J1: 0%<br />E1b1b: 7.5%<br />T: 1%<br />Q: 1%<br />N1c1: 1%<br /><br />West Germany:<br />I1: 13%<br />I2a: 2.5%<br />I2b: 7%<br />R1a: 9%<br />R1b: 47%<br />G2a: 5%<br />J2: 5%<br />J1: 0%<br />E1b1b: 8%<br />T: 1.5%<br />Q: 0.5%<br />N1c1: 1.5%<br /><br />South Germany:<br />I1: 9.5%<br />I2a: 5%<br />I2b: 3%<br />R1a: 9.5%<br />R1b: 48.5%<br />G2a: 7.5%<br />J2: 5.5%<br />J1: 1%<br />E1b1b: 7.5%<br />T: 1.5%<br />Q: 0.5%<br />N1c1: 0.5%<br /><br />Denmark:<br />I1: 30.5%<br />I2a: 0.5%<br />I2b: 5%<br />R1a: 12.5%<br />R1b: 44.5%<br />G2a: 1%<br />J2: 3%<br />J1: 0%<br />E1b1b: 2.5%<br />T: 0%<br />Q: 0%<br />N1c1: 1.5%<br /><br />Sweden:<br />I1: 42%<br />I2a: 0%<br />I2b: 2%<br />R1a: 23.5%<br />R1b: 21%<br />G2a: 0.5%<br />J2: 1%<br />J1: 0%<br />E1b1b: 1%<br />T: 0%<br />Q: 0.5%<br />N1c1: 7%<br /><br />I dont know what to think about someone who would chose I2 as the representative cluster of Sweden.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48546723540202328812010-11-07T18:42:51.632+02:002010-11-07T18:42:51.632+02:00(b) composite map showing the clusters with the hi...<i>(b) composite map showing the clusters with the highest frequency per tract of land after excluding the most frequent clusters in the continental region of Western Europe (primarily covered by cluster 6)</i><br /><br />Just as I guessed when writing "there is something that we don't know here".Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75019853751194772162010-11-07T11:56:58.456+02:002010-11-07T11:56:58.456+02:00Northern Russia is a different blue and a differen...Northern Russia is a different blue and a different "haplogroup" cluster.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2324852657587706772010-11-07T11:54:16.235+02:002010-11-07T11:54:16.235+02:00Again - same color scheme on both maps. Both use ...Again - same color scheme on both maps. Both use the same clusters, both use the same colors. It says so in the paper - just read it! I am truly getting tired of this useless speculation of people who dont even ' the paper. <br /><br />Think about it: this represents subsets of "real" y-DNA and projects them into questionable clusters - and most are represented in the percent range, only, because only the largest contribution is displayed. Look at the actual data sheet - or some of the examples I posted above.<br /><br /><b>Why should a super tiny minority haplogroup like I2, that is at 4%-6% in Germany, be "representative" for Germany on such a map?</b><br /><br />You are plainly misinformed. In some regions of Germany, R1b, I2, and R1a are roughly equally represented. However, if you only count the most prevalent strains, I2 may be enhanced there, locally, i/e/, in Scandinavia, since it does not have the 40,000 years of different R1b strains in that region.<br /><br />Just look at Scandinavia. Is it brighter yellow than Germany in (b) because it has more I2? No. it is brighter because it has (due to founder effects and drift) more of <b>a</b> particular STR variation, which dominates there and makes for a large percentage of the population. It is not that Germany has any less I2 - but it has way larger diversity of I2 - and as such, less of what is counted in this rather imbecile analysis, grouped in cluster 4.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60962109218151285562010-11-07T09:55:43.239+02:002010-11-07T09:55:43.239+02:00"However, navy blue is just another R1b and n..."However, navy blue is just another R1b and not N, as I also mention above."<br /><br />I think she means the left map.<br /><br />Do you think that blue in Finland and northern Russia is "just another R1b?" There is only 3.5% R1b in Finland.<br /><br />So I think she is talking about the left map and you is talking about the right map.<br /><br />And I dont think both maps use the same clusters.<br /><br />Yellow MAY be I2 on the right map, but more like I1 on the left one.<br /><br />I would even doubt if that is I2 on the right map.<br /><br />Why should a super tiny minority haplogroup like I2, that is at 4%-6% in Germany, be "representative" for Germany on such a map?<br /><br />I would rather think that is just another (a specially "Germanic" one) branch of R1b.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77710520484704565802010-11-07T09:09:50.122+02:002010-11-07T09:09:50.122+02:00To clarify
Cluster 11/13 seems to be the Black Sea...<i>To clarify<br />Cluster 11/13 seems to be the Black Sea and Turkey. There is a wave of expansion west into Greece etc that may be the Ottoman empire.</i><br /><br />But it also includes most of Albania, which refutes your hypothesis, as Albania has never had any meaningful number of Turkish-speakers. Also the demographic impact of the Ottomans on the Balkans was considerably small.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91016551074043353042010-11-07T07:03:46.937+02:002010-11-07T07:03:46.937+02:00Yes, yellow is I2, as I mentioned above. However,...Yes, yellow is I2, as I mentioned above. However, navy blue is just another R1b and not N, as I also mention above. Their resolution is so poor that their cluster system is off: the prime "haplogroup" that makes up blue is closer to the Iberian haplogroups that make up most of the green cluster than the main haplogroup that make up the near-East (but yet is grouped under green). Look at the underlying STR data I posted above.<br /><br />"Haplogroup" in this context means the identifying string of 7 STRs - not ySNPs.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50281628624243053802010-11-07T04:50:22.344+02:002010-11-07T04:50:22.344+02:00So...
Haplogroup R1a is red.
Haplogroup R1b and s...So...<br /><br />Haplogroup R1a is red.<br />Haplogroup R1b and subclades are green.<br />Haplogroup N is navy (Finland etc)<br />Haplogroup J is pale blue (cluster 13).<br />Haplogroup E is orange (cluster 3)<br />Haplogroup I is possibly yellow (cluster 4) in Sweden.<br /><br />Not sure what the grey of the Balkan spread is. Could it be an an underlay of a Haplogroup I subclade?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41610503949641399062010-11-07T04:21:38.276+02:002010-11-07T04:21:38.276+02:00To clarify
Cluster 11/13 seems to be the Black Sea...To clarify<br />Cluster 11/13 seems to be the Black Sea and Turkey. There is a wave of expansion west into Greece etc that may be the Ottoman empire.<br /><br />Ooops on Cyprus.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65268298091089127472010-11-07T02:15:57.557+02:002010-11-07T02:15:57.557+02:00From the paper:
"(a) composite map showing t...From the paper:<br /><br />"<b>(a)</b> composite map showing the 13 clusters (out of a total of 20 clusters) accounting for the highest frequency per tract of land; <b>(b)</b> composite map showing the <b>clusters with the highest frequency per tract of land after excluding the most frequent clusters in the continental region of Western Europe (primarily covered by cluster 6)</b>; lighter and darker shading indicates higher and lower cluster frequency, respectively; dots indicate sampling sites"eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81858311608937778312010-11-06T16:57:36.008+02:002010-11-06T16:57:36.008+02:00Both maps use the same color coding - the colors t...<i>Both maps use the same color coding - the colors that define the clusters are to some degree mixed or they partially overlap on the maps.</i><br /><br />The color codings of the two maps do not correspond to each other. This makes me think that they are entirely unrelated or there is something that we don't know here.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54122680411681129872010-11-06T07:19:24.070+02:002010-11-06T07:19:24.070+02:00onur,
Both maps use the same color coding - the c...onur,<br /><br />Both maps use the same color coding - the colors that define the clusters are to some degree mixed or they partially overlap on the maps.<br /><br />Cluster 7 was found in Turkey (2.6%) and Syria (5%). I think the resolution is really poor and likely doesn't even properly distinguish between the two main stars of R1b (western Europe and Turkey). For example for cluster 6, the haplogroup found in 10% to 15% from Spain to Ireland is 14_13_29_24_11_13_13, while that found to 23% in Jordan is 14_13_29_23_11_11_12 (but also lumped under cluster 6). Compare that with 14_14_30_24_11_13_13 - which was assigned cluster 9, instead (Spain, Finland).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16447039408385301832010-11-05T19:04:01.615+02:002010-11-05T19:04:01.615+02:00Cluster13 was assigned to Albania and to the weste...<i>Cluster13 was assigned to Albania and to the <b>western</b> area of the Balkans</i><br /><br />It is clear from the first map that they misspelled "eastern" as "western" here.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51910426514558889842010-11-05T18:23:40.404+02:002010-11-05T18:23:40.404+02:00I'm highly skeptical of the timeline of the li...I'm highly skeptical of the timeline of the linguistic map at 5500 BCE. But, I think it is fair to think it may have looked like that sometime around ca. 1300 BCE-2500 BCE, which would have the same genetic impact. So, it could be an IE origin cluster, just a sevearl thousand years younger one.<br /><br />Alternately, because it isn't very clear how much of a Y-DNA demographic impact IE expansion had in this region, it isn't implausible to think that the area labeled IE in the linguistic map may really correspond to the area that spoke languages in some now extinct LBK linguistic family around 5500 BCE. The initial cultural unity and common cultural origin of the LBK (per artifacts and crop/domesticated animal ancient DNA), apparent low level of assimiliation of autochronous peoples in the first thousand years or so of that expansion (per-ancient DNA and physical anthropology), and rapid rate of demographic expansion across Europe in the early European Neolithic all point to probable linguistic unity among those populations.<br /><br />But, it seems more likely that the LBK language was not IE, and that instead Proto-IE was a creolization of a language in that extinct LBK language family and a Uralic language that was formed in the <a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/anthropology-of-sredny-stog-and.html" rel="nofollow">ethnically mixed Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures</a> initially in a very small North Pontic area ca. 4500 BCE to 3500 BCE that didn't really make big territorial gains into places where we have historical records until around 2500 BCE or later.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16604233864673448692010-11-05T18:04:57.576+02:002010-11-05T18:04:57.576+02:00They sampled 7 STRs and some of the samples they a...They sampled 7 STRs and some of the samples they are assigning to 'cluster 6' - in particular the Jordan and I *think* it was Egypt or N. Africa are a different group from the rest of cluster 6 which are most certainly R1b (including the Armenian one). I know R1b is quite frequent in the Jordan highlands but I'm not sure the 'most frequent' cluster identified is even the same haplogroup as the rest of cluster 6. There was a link to the supplementary info but I think it was taken down.AWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78809443634357403502010-11-05T17:09:17.458+02:002010-11-05T17:09:17.458+02:00... just as a color/cluster at the same K...
... ...<i>... just <b>as</b> a color/cluster at the same K...</i><br /><br />... just <b>like</b> a color/cluster at the same K...Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33120310253781064592010-11-05T13:34:20.638+02:002010-11-05T13:34:20.638+02:00Question, if a data point appears in a certain col...<i>Question, if a data point appears in a certain color/cluster must it therefore belong to that color/cluster?</i><br /><br />If on the same map, should be so, just as a color/cluster at the same K of an ADMIXTURE analysis.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28098056171414287372010-11-05T13:05:28.589+02:002010-11-05T13:05:28.589+02:00Yes, there are two different green clusters: 6 and...<i>Yes, there are two different green clusters: 6 and 7.</i><br /><br />7 (dark green) is only used in the second map, whose color coding is obviously entirely unrelated with the first one. In the first map the only green used is 6 (light green), which is the same in both Europe and the Middle East.<br /><br /><i>the blue/ green island in the east Med is Crete not Cyprus. Cyprus is shown in blue</i><br /><br />True. But Cyprus wasn't sampled, so it is open to speculation. But considering the coloring of Turkey and Crete, Cyprus' interpolated coloring seems plausible. The point is, no cluster in Turkey is exclusive to Turkey, but they are all found also in either non-Turkish parts of Europe, non-Turkish countries lying east and south of Turkey or both.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40829778290672102632010-11-05T12:40:44.688+02:002010-11-05T12:40:44.688+02:00Not sure why Wiik's map is seen as important h...Not sure why Wiik's map is seen as important here. It is extremely speculative and speculation about European pre-history is not hard to find. <br /><br />But compare to any other map, for example just a basic geographical or bio-region map, and you'll also see approximate correspondences.<br /><br />There are things like mountain ranges and swamps involved, which mean that no matter who was living in the various regions of Europe, those regions are the regions where people also have more contact with each other.<br /><br />Best Regards<br />AndrewAndrew Lancasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15050253327442799011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25246018036786618322010-11-05T10:12:35.453+02:002010-11-05T10:12:35.453+02:00Dieneke, I'm very sorry for the multiple posti...<i>Dieneke, I'm very sorry for the multiple posting. To counteract redundancy in posting I've conflated all of my unpublished posts on this thread, so please don't publish them and also this post, only publish the conflated post that I will send after this one.</i><br /><br />I've asked you many times not to triple post. Opening up a text editor, combining ALL your thoughts into one post and then posting is not difficult.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42393026731768178352010-11-05T10:02:06.076+02:002010-11-05T10:02:06.076+02:00Yes, there are two different green clusters: 6 an...Yes, there are two <i>different</i> green clusters: 6 and 7.<br /><br />Interesting to see that there are two (presumably different R1a haplotypes) red (17) and "Aubergine" (cluster 18). The area of 18 is largely made up of non-Slavic speaking people (Romania, Hungary) in addition to Serbs and Croats and goes all the way to the Ukraine. This may indicate that this region (like Eastern Germany) already had its own R1a before Slavic expansion, and likely before the advent of the Slavic language. The known high frequency of haplogroup I in Serbia/Croatia is also an indication for a persistence of local groups. <br /><br />On the other hand, (17) goes along with the traditional view of northward migrating Slavs and Balto-Slavs from between the Ukraine and the Urals.<br /><br />In map (b) with he second-highest frequencies, yellow (4) appears to be the "Germanic" haplogroup I2. Note, however, that this haplogroup and its distribution also predates the Germanic languages. <br /><br />People just haven't really moved all that much in the past 7,000 or so years.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66372808991182692692010-11-05T05:58:26.228+02:002010-11-05T05:58:26.228+02:00@ Annie Mouse, the blue/ green island in the east ...@ Annie Mouse, the blue/ green island in the east Med is Crete not Cyprus. Cyprus is shown in blue.<br /><br />Some comments on the Balkans, looked at like a painting:<br /><br />The barriers between the groups in the Balkans seem much less distinct than those between the groups elsewhere. The Balkans also seems most complex, with the blue, red, grey, green and purple layers. Compare the Balkans to the solid green in western Europe or to the distinct green, yellow and blue blocks in Scandinavia.<br /><br />The red in the Balkans seems to overlay the blue and the grey. Notice the blue on both the Adriatic and the Black Sea coasts; and the grey on the Baltic coast and at 5 and 7 o'clock south from there.<br /><br />The blue and the grey look distinct from each other, like non-Balkan groups.<br /><br />The purple looks painted over the top as a top layer.<br /><br />So my guess is blue at the southern part and grey at the northern, with red over the blue and grey and purple over the top of the red.<br /><br />Clearly the western green looks much less present than the eastern red in the Balkans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com