tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4396739541777343147..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Ancient Y chromosomes from ChinaDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91826354977715082502013-10-07T23:31:17.454+03:002013-10-07T23:31:17.454+03:00Dear Dienekes,
I think you would be interested a...Dear Dienekes, <br /><br />I think you would be interested about this new paper.<br /><br />http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216<br />http://www.ranhaer.com/thread-25961-1-1.html<br /><br />Y Chromosome analysis of prehistoric human populations in the West Liao River Valley, Northeast China<br /><br />Yinqiu Cui etc.<br /><br />Abstract<br />Background<br /><br />The West Liao River valley in Northeast China is an ecologically diverse region, populated in prehistory by human populations with a wide range of cultures and modes of subsistence. To help understand the human evolutionary history of this region, we performed Y chromosome analyses on ancient human remains from archaeological sites ranging in age from 6500 to 2700 BP.<br />Results<br /><br />47 of the 70 individuals provided reproducible results. They were assigned into five different Y sub-haplogroups using diagnostic single nucleotide polymorphisms, namely N1 (xN1a, N1c), N1c, C/C3e, O3a (O3a3) and O3a3c. We also used 17 Y short tandem repeat loci in the non-recombining portion of the Y chromosome. There appears to be significant genetic differences between populations of the West Liao River valley and adjacent cultural complexes in the prehistoric period, and these prehistoric populations were shown to carry similar haplotypes as present-day Northeast Asians, but at markedly different frequencies.<br />Conclusion<br /><br />Our results suggest that the prehistoric cultural transitions were associated with immigration from the Yellow River valley and the northern steppe into the West Liao River valley. They reveal the temporal continuity of Y chromosome lineages in populations of the West Liao River valley over 5000 years, with a concurrent increase in lineage diversity caused by an influx of immigrants from other populations.<br /><br />http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/13/216<br />http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-13-216.pdfMasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03226049899081714570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51594986794743162992013-09-24T05:47:50.256+03:002013-09-24T05:47:50.256+03:00hello very interesting blog. Could it be possible ...hello very interesting blog. Could it be possible to send me the full article too please?anthropologhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01653145733252788656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10891456055214482362013-02-03T23:21:14.978+02:002013-02-03T23:21:14.978+02:00"I am thinking that this K* result could belo..."I am thinking that this K* result could belong to the Y-SNP haplogroups L or T? Do you guys agree with this?" <br /><br />Possible, but it seems unlikely to me. There are quite a few Y-DNA haplogroups listed as 'MNOPS' in the Philippines and Southern Wallacea and it seems reasonable to suppose it could be more widespread. Perhaps as far north as the current study area. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22911949586918518192013-02-03T16:17:28.738+02:002013-02-03T16:17:28.738+02:00Within the 12 Xiaohe graves, there are 11 R1a resu...Within the 12 Xiaohe graves, there are 11 R1a results, and one K* result. I find this K* result interesting.<br />I have read the paper of this study. The following is a list of the Y-SNP markers that have been tested in this study:<br /><br />-C-M216, C-M8, C-M38, C-PK2<br />-F-M89<br />-K-M9<br />-NO-M214<br />-N-M231, N1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat<br />-O-M175, -O1, O2-M95, O3-M122, O3a-M324, O3a3-P201, O3a2c1a-M117 , O3a3c1-M117, O3a-M324, O3a3-P201<br />-P-M45<br />-Q-M242, Q-MEH2<br />-R1a1-M198<br /><br />As a conclusion from this list of tested markers, the remaining subgroups of the Y-SNP marker K-M9(xN, O, P) have not been tested. I am thinking that this K* result could belong to the Y-SNP haplogroups L or T? Do you guys agree with this? Also, since the combination of subgroups of haplogroups R and T have been found in several unexpected cases in other studies, i think this K* could belong to haplogroup T. Ofcourse in order to prove this, the K* needs to be subtyped. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61029522669586803672013-01-19T06:45:48.786+02:002013-01-19T06:45:48.786+02:00Va_Highlander,
It seems that both Rong and Di are...Va_Highlander,<br /><br />It seems that both Rong and Di are just generic terms. They more ore less operating in each other's territory. The difference seems to be that Rong had no significant archaeological site to pin the location to whereas Di was more sinitized, had established a significant state at Hebei during the warring states period and a king's tomb was found,<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongshan_%28state%29<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9BDoWTfcK4 (in Chinese)<br /><br />The grave goods were inscribed in ancient Chinese. The branding of barbarian might be more political (not submitting to Zhou ?) than cultural.dux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71854884016976404682013-01-18T17:56:25.119+02:002013-01-18T17:56:25.119+02:00Valikhan,
I should appreciate such kindness very ...Valikhan,<br /><br />I should appreciate such kindness very much and many thanks:<br /><br />michael(dot)g(dot)ofarrell(at)gmail(dot)com<br /><br />dix13,<br /><br />The difficulty is that "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rong_people" rel="nofollow">Rong</a>" (戎) seems to have been a generic term for barbaric peoples. For instance, the Xirong ("Western Rong") and Shanrong ("Mountain Rong") may have been somehow related. But it may have also been that the only thing that they had in common was the fact that they were both considered barbarian peoples by the Chinese.<br /><br />As for the Xianbei, they were explicitly said to be descendants of the Donghu, a proto-Mongolian people originally to the north of the Di. The sinicization campaign you mention is 500 years or more after the latest archaeological site surveyed in this paper and a millennium or more after the Zhou wrote of the Di and Rong. If there was a relationship between these latter two and the Xianbei, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support the claim, at least from what I can see.<br /><br />So, I must agree with at least the spirit of Lathdrinor's comment. I think it is tempting to emphasize similarities between nomadic pastoralists and minimize their differences, if for no other reason than for simplicity's sake. However, one of the significant conclusions of this paper is that there was considerable genetic variation along the northern boundary of the "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaxia" rel="nofollow">Huaxia</a>". We should probably, as a consequence, resist such temptations as much as possible.<br /><br />We have a similar situation to the west, across the Eurasian steppe. It was assumed that the nomadic pastoralists of that region were more-or-less culturally homogeneous, with only some largely insignificant regional variation. Now, it is becoming increasingly clear that this is not the case and the differences between the Afanasevo, for instance, in the east, and the Yamna, their alleged relations far to the west, were profound, easily more significant than any supposed similarities.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22521806768570113872013-01-18T02:35:16.656+02:002013-01-18T02:35:16.656+02:00Lathdrinor,
The paper found high freq yHpG Q at S...Lathdrinor,<br /><br />The paper found high freq yHpG Q at Shanxi and attributed them to the ancient Di normad there, not the other way round.<br /><br />Later there was large scale sinitization occuring there,<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_of_Xianbei_names_to_Han_namesdux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74098843449356839942013-01-17T14:26:24.664+02:002013-01-17T14:26:24.664+02:00Hi Va_Highlander,
I can send you the original Chi...Hi Va_Highlander,<br /><br />I can send you the original Chinese article in pdf. Valikhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13866507134402028463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4577287994174323652013-01-16T03:28:11.849+02:002013-01-16T03:28:11.849+02:00Va_Highlander,
Yes the paper did not mention Rong...Va_Highlander,<br /><br />Yes the paper did not mention Rong.<br />However, in<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_%28state%29<br /><br />"In 706 BC Qi was attacked by the Shan Rong."<br />"In 664 he protected Yan from the Rong.'<br /><br />Liaonin and Jilin are in the old Yan Kingdom. May be the Rong had not reach there at that time.dux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82760651871228998422013-01-16T02:14:29.008+02:002013-01-16T02:14:29.008+02:00Nomadicism is a lifestyle that was undertaken by a...Nomadicism is a lifestyle that was undertaken by a huge variety of groups over the course of time. We certainly don't have evidence that the Mongols, Turks, etc., who are known descendants of nomads, are Q. On the other hand, it is conceivable that the distribution of Q was a lot higher 3,000 years ago in and around Central Asia, and they were among the groups that spearheaded the pastoral life style in those days. But later nomads, from the looks of it, did not share in the same haplotype. The steppes were never homogeneous, and it is better not to make sweeping statements about the haplotype of nomads when we have plenty of evidence for diversity.Lathdrinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08214825065599007633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29581777390368607932013-01-15T20:50:18.002+02:002013-01-15T20:50:18.002+02:00dix13,
You may be correct, as I haven't seen ...dix13,<br /><br />You may be correct, as I haven't seen the paper itself, but this abstract makes no mention of the Rong.<br /><br />What the abstract says, roughly, is that the high frequency of haplogroup Q is possibly due to the fact that Shanxi was the main area of activity for the Di (狄人), an ancient race of nomadic pastoralists. The Rong, according to surviving accounts, were said to be further to the west. They are sometimes associated in Chinese historical accounts, but it was also common for such accounts to blur distinctions between what may in fact have been distinct "barbarian" populations.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9372048446556255702013-01-13T07:15:34.008+02:002013-01-13T07:15:34.008+02:00The article seems to suggest that
for the nomadic ...The article seems to suggest that<br />for the nomadic tribes Rong and Di<br />the dominant yHpG is Q. The result<br />is more significant than I thought.<br /><br />One of the puzzle from Louis Gates'<br />documentary Faces of America, is<br />among the twelve celebs whose DNA<br />were analysed YoYo Ma was found to<br />be closest related to Eva Langoria<br />despite that there was another American Japanese in the sample,<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_langoria<br /><br />Longoria was thought to have 27% presumingly Mayan DNA. Indigenous<br />American are thought to be mainly<br />of yHpG Q (I know Longoria is female). Chinese surname Ma (meaning horse) tends to be decendent of the nomads rather than farmers. So was the possible<br />link happened 12 thousand years ago before the Indigenous American crossed over the Bering Straits ?dux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1506228313413808022013-01-12T10:41:04.539+02:002013-01-12T10:41:04.539+02:00Thanks for those titbits folks. The translation s...Thanks for those titbits folks. The translation seems not much better than what we find in instructions for assembling Chinese made products. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63693205886988199182013-01-12T04:50:58.016+02:002013-01-12T04:50:58.016+02:00Unfortunate that the ancient DNA
from Linzi was no...Unfortunate that the ancient DNA<br />from Linzi was not included.dux.iehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10092230072050546370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90205981460398461402013-01-12T00:17:07.930+02:002013-01-12T00:17:07.930+02:00For the sake of completeness, the remaining eleven...For the sake of completeness, the remaining eleven of the thirteen archaeological sites mentioned are Heigouliang cemetery (Barköl Kazakh Autonomous County, Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, dated to the early Iron Age), <a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/02/ancient-dna-from-pengyang-nomads.html" rel="nofollow">Pengyang cemetery</a> (Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, 2600-2200 BP), Taojiazhai cemetery (Xining City, Qinghai Provence, 2000 BP), Hengbei Village cemetery (Jiang County, Shanxi Province, Early Zhou to Spring-and-Autumn period), Sanguan cemetery (Wei County, Hebei Provence, early Lower Xiajiadian), Miaozigou cemetery (Chayouqian Banner, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, type site, 5500-5000 BP), Niuheliang cemetery (Jiangping County, Liaoning Province, Late Hongshan, 5650-5150 BP), Halahaigou cemetery (Sihe Village, near the town of Yuanbaoshan, Chifeng City, Inner Mongolia, 4500 BP), Dadianzi cemetery (near type site of Xiajiadian, Aohan Banner, Inner Mongolia, two phases: Lower Xiajiadian, 4000-3500 BP, and Upper Xiajiadian, 3000-2300 BP), Dashanqian cemetery (Chifeng City, Lower Xiajiadian, 4000-3500 BP), and Jinggouzi cemetery (Linxi County, Inner Mongolia, type site, Spring-and-Autumn through Warring-States periods).Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62772185980673074922013-01-10T17:54:58.924+02:002013-01-10T17:54:58.924+02:00Google really made a mess of this one. My grasp of...Google really made a mess of this one. My grasp of Chinese is modest, at best, but some of this is already familiar to me.<br /><br />The first archaeological site mentioned is in Xinjiang Provence: the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaohe_Tomb_complex" rel="nofollow">Xiaohe cemetery</a>, near Lop Nor. This is the "westernmost Creek crowd", reported to be R1a1. To the best of my knowledge, this is nothing new and their Y DNA has been known for some years.<br /><br />The next site is the Tianshanbeilu cemetery -- sometimes called <i>Linya</i>, as in <a href="http://www.sino-platonic.org/abstracts/spp097_sino_western.html" rel="nofollow">Li, 1999</a> -- in the Hami Oasis area of Xinjiang. This is a site of particular interest, since the ceramic assemblage shows connections to both the <a href="http://www.sino-platonic.org/abstracts/spp086_siba.html" rel="nofollow">Siba culture</a>, to the east, and to the Ke’ermuqi culture, from the Dzungar Basin. Ke'ermuqi had apparent cultural ties to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasevo_culture" rel="nofollow">Afanasevo people</a> of southern Siberia.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.com