tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4328077317745011037..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Into, out of, and across the Eurasian steppeDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22761057239640167142015-08-15T12:02:52.278+03:002015-08-15T12:02:52.278+03:00"It seems that my prediction the the West_Asi..."It seems that my prediction the the West_Asian component would appear in post-5ka Europeans and was related to Indo-Europeans has been adequately confirmed by the last two papers."<br />-- "Was related to Indo-Europeans"? That cannot be confirmed based on genes, because Indo-Europeanness is a phenomenon of the linguistic level. You seem to have your own favourite opinion, and therefore you see the genetic evidence through that kind of lenses. <br /><br />Jaakko Häkkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03088022045546791438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67763465877141052122015-08-02T16:14:26.962+03:002015-08-02T16:14:26.962+03:00One characteristic of North American cultures coul...One characteristic of North American cultures could explain how hypothetical Native American-derived populations in Siberia night have lost their characteristic YHG Q profile and assumed a genomic composition more like western Eurasians during a westward expansion across the Eurasian steppes. <br /><br />Eastern Woodland cultures of North American practiced a form of warfare known as "mourning wars" in which the objective was to acquire captives to replace dead members of the tribe. In a scenario in which a YHG Q population invaded a region where the local population was YHG R1a or R1b, and which experienced a 10% replacement of male lineages per generation due to warfare, within 23 or 24 generations - or about six centuries, the proportion of YHG Q in the population would fall to less than 10% and the population would then be largely composed of YHG R1a or R1b lineages. In fact, this effect was observed in the eastern United States in which large numbers of European captives were absorbed into the Iroquois and other Eastern Woodland tribes. (Interestingly, many Iroquois male lineages retained their English patrilineal surnames, despite the matrilineal kinship system of the Iroquois.) The Dene-speaking cultures of North America, which have been linked to the Yeniseian cultures of Siberia, did not seem to have this tradition. This could explain why the Ketts retained their predominantly YHG Q genomic profile while the descendants of "Paleo-Iroquoian" tribes could have "morphed" into predominantly YHG R1a or R1b Proto-Indo-Europeans. <br /><br />To cite one surprising example of retained vocabulary: <br /><br />*Proto Indo-European <i>*stek-lo-</i>, from root *stak- "to stand, place, be firm" <br />*Proto Germanic <i>*stakhla</i> "standing fast,”<br />Oneida (Iroquoian) <i>-itstʌhlatu-</i> ‘made of stone’ ( <i>-itstʌhl- + -atu-3 )</i><br />Oneida <i>-itstʌhl- + -ot-</i> 'rock formation, mountain'<br />Mod. Persian <i>istā(dan)</i> ‘stand’<br />German <i>sta(nd)halt(en)</i> 'to stand firm’<br /><br />I think it's obvious that the IE forms are "in family" with the Iroquoian form, which appears to be metaphorical. <br /><br />This is hardly an isolated case. For instance, German <i>schnell</i> ('fast’) does not seem to have a Proto-Indo-European etymology. It does, however, resemble Proto-Iroquoian <i>-hsnuːɹiɁ</i>, from which Cherokee <i>gatsanula</i> ('fast') and Oneida <i>yosno·lé</i> (‘it’s fast’) are derived.<br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06029565423493357259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67046941525271748262015-07-30T15:26:08.805+03:002015-07-30T15:26:08.805+03:00Martin Clifford ..
Very interesting comments.
I t...Martin Clifford ..<br />Very interesting comments. <br />I think your perspectives aren't isolated. <br />Time will tell :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87837380346867809582015-07-26T17:03:35.679+03:002015-07-26T17:03:35.679+03:00Martin Clifford Styan:
"However, it appears ...Martin Clifford Styan:<br /><br /><i>"However, it appears that Yamnaya was the result of a migration from the south-east, rather than being the source of a migration to the south-east."</i><br /><br />Which, if you think about it, makes more sense. Environmental conditions improve toward the north and west. It's difficult to imagine any scenario in which pastoralists would voluntarily migrate toward a region that is colder and drier than that which they left behind.<br /><br /><i>"I have always been very doubtful about ideas that Indo-European came from any further east than the regions around the Black Sea. However, the new evidence motivated me to look around the Internet for such ideas. I found information about the “Sogdiana hypothesis” from the linguist Johanna Nichols, according to whom Indo-European spread out from Central Asia."</i><br /><br />Indeed, though it's a bit more complicated than that. What Nichols proposed is a linguistic spread zone extending from Sogdiana and Bactria to Anatolia. Historically, a language introduced into this zone spread easily and rapidly from east to west. In fact, more generally, the only proven linguistic expansion from west to east in this part of the world was the Russian expansion across the steppe into Siberia, late in the modern era. Nichols favored an origin for Indo-Iranian in Bactria or thereabouts. Under the right circumstances, at least, she did not rule out an origin for PIE in Anatolia or for that matter even the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, though the latter is somewhat less likely under her hypothesis given the evidence.<br /><br /><i>"I also found Mariya Ivanova’s article “The Caucasus and the Orient: The origin of the “Maikop Phenomenon” in the 4th millennium BC” (reported by Dienekes on 31 May 2013). Ivanova connects the Maikop Culture of the northern Caucasus with Iran and southern Central Asia, rather than with the Euphrates and Tigris basins as others have done."</i><br /><br />Again, I think that what Ivanova's excellent paper is telling us is a bit complicated. It seems difficult to ignore material evidence suggesting that Maykop arose as a result of Mesopotamian influence, albeit indirectly through cultural intermediaries. What Ivanova demonstrates, I think, is that Maykop was more immediately involved in an exchange network of elite goods encompassing parts of Iran and the oases of southern Central Asia. Satisfying Mesopotamia's increasing demand for metal seems the most likely explanation for the Maykop phenomenon, so it shouldn't surprise us to find goods and cultural influences arriving in Ciscaucasia through essentially the same network that supplied lapis lazuli, for example, to the population centers of the south.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13477536942856054282015-07-26T11:24:59.621+03:002015-07-26T11:24:59.621+03:00@ Mooreis better
"You haven't considered...@ Mooreis better<br /><br />"You haven't considered the fact that remedello (sic.), and copper age (sic.) italy (sic.) in general, didn't speak indo european (sic.). Perhaps your error lies in your reliance on 195os (sic.) archaeological theorems which (sic.) view Remedelo (sic.) as a "Kurganized culture". It's not.""<br /><br />Not its not. the Archaeological equivalnce was dubious, and now we have genetic proof. But hey, feel free to be the proverbial ostrich..<br /><br />* "A statement, which you purport to be "the fact that Remedello [people] didn't speak Indo European."<br /><br />Incorrect and misquote. I actually said "<i>consider</i> the fact that Remedello [people] didn't speak Indo European. <br /><br /><br />So, your rebuttal was lame, wrong and misdrected. Poor thing, in addition to cognitive inaptitude, you appear to also have a chip on your shoulder against people that exercise and keep fit. Now I see how you get your name "moreisbetter". <br />Keep wishing, you special person :) <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65895659013443341902015-07-21T12:43:34.262+03:002015-07-21T12:43:34.262+03:00Styan said...
I first entered my previous comment ...Styan said...<br />I first entered my previous comment a week ago, but for some reason it did not appear. Now I would like to add a comment on Slumbery’s comment above. I was also surprised by the high levels of Gedrosia in Yamnaya and Corded Ware people in view of the low levels or absence of this component in modern Eastern Europeans. It seems the people with a significant amount of Gedrosia passed through Eastern Europe, then disappeared from there, but survived in the West. The modern Balto-Slav populations probably represent a later migration, presumably from the Balkans.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128296726906488883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29608430898609128662015-07-21T12:35:29.929+03:002015-07-21T12:35:29.929+03:00Styan said...
Several years ago I found that a goo...Styan said...<br />Several years ago I found that a good way to deal with admixture data was to copy a spreadsheet to my computer and rearrange the individuals and populations according to the largest component, to further sub-divide them according to which components came second and arrange them in order of the size of the largest component. This revealed some very interesting geographical patterns. I was especially interested in the Dodecad K12 data, which divided “West Asian” into “Caucasus” and “Gedrosia” components. The recent publication of ancient autosomal DNA data motivated me to look at this subject again. So far I have not found a spreadsheet integrating the K12 data for modern populations known for several years with the newly published ancient data. However, I have found K12 data for a number of ancient individuals on various websites. I have combined these with the data from several years ago and observed some very interesting things.<br /><br />In particular, I found that the Yamnaya and Corded Ware people have high levels of the Gedrosia component and only a little Caucasus. (e.g. M020637 Yamnaya Sok River I0443: North European 61%, Gedrosia 27%, Atlantic Med 6%, Caucasus 3%, Siberia 3%) This suggests to me that an important part of the ancestry of these people came from east of the Caspian. This surprised me because, on the basis of several things I have read, I expected Yamnaya to be connected more with the Balkans, Anatolia and the Caucasus, but if so they would have less Gedrosia, more Caucasus and probably also more Atlantic Med and South-west Asian.<br /><br />The Gedrosia component is named after the ancient Gedrosia region around the Iran / Pakistan border, where it reaches its highest levels in modern populations. However, this does not necessarily indicate its place of origin. It is found at significant levels from the British Isles to South India. I think Gedrosia in Asia cannot come from Europe because in Europe, Gedrosia is always found admixed with a much higher percentage of North European. The new ancient data shows that this was already the case in the Yamnaya Culture. In Asia, Gedrosia frequently occurs at high levels in groups with little or no North European admixture, especially in Dravidian populations. Similarly, Gedrosia in Europe and the Middle East cannot come from India, because in India, Gedrosia is always found with a high level of the South Asian component. The latter hardly extends beyond the north-western edge of the Indian Subcontinent. I think the Gedrosia component can be identified with the Neolithic farmers of the eastern Middle East – roughly from the Zagros to the Indus Valley. Its spread could have been associated with both the Dravidian and Indo-European languages.<br /><br />I have been fascinated by the Indo-European problem for decades. I have generally favoured an Anatolian origin, although I have always been aware of the Kurgan hypothesis. Various people seem to think that the new ancient DNA data confirms the Kurgan hypothesis. It seems to me very credible that, at least, the Western European Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European originate from the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures. However, it appears that Yamnaya was the result of a migration from the south-east, rather than being the source of a migration to the south-east. I have always been very doubtful about ideas that Indo-European came from any further east than the regions around the Black Sea. However, the new evidence motivated me to look around the Internet for such ideas. I found information about the “Sogdiana hypothesis” from the linguist Johanna Nichols, according to whom Indo-European spread out from Central Asia. I also found Mariya Ivanova’s article “The Caucasus and the Orient: The origin of the “Maikop Phenomenon” in the 4th millennium BC” (reported by Dienekes on 31 May 2013). Ivanova connects the Maikop Culture of the northern Caucasus with Iran and southern Central Asia, rather than with the Euphrates and Tigris basins as others have done.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128296726906488883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16962266313896866812015-07-16T22:00:40.825+03:002015-07-16T22:00:40.825+03:00Simon_W
You actually start to undermine my confid...Simon_W<br /><br />You actually start to undermine my confidence in my theory.<br /><br /><i>"The Gedrosia component used to be an interesting puzzle for many years, but it has been resolved, it's no longer puzzling. The Gedrosia centered on the British Isles is from the Corded Ware. The Corded people from Germany were the first ancient sample in central/western Europe who had any Gedrosia at all, and they had 20 – 21% of it, more than any modern European population."</i><br /><br />I missed this. Where can I found this analysis? <br />I don't deny that I am a little sceptical about this, because if true then I see there a puzzle. "Gedrosia" is pretty much falling near zero in Eastern Europe in the modern population, included core CW areas. Actually some of the core areas of CW among the areas where "Gedrosia" hits the bottom. Based on the presence of the component in the modern populations CW would be the last place where I would look after the historical source.Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27014214062003932832015-07-13T00:42:22.185+03:002015-07-13T00:42:22.185+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46277144429401567812015-07-13T00:29:21.695+03:002015-07-13T00:29:21.695+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49045443928173185592015-07-10T11:38:48.199+03:002015-07-10T11:38:48.199+03:00Sorry, I forgot to add:
@ Slumbery
The Gedrosia ...Sorry, I forgot to add:<br /><br />@ Slumbery<br /><br />The Gedrosia component used to be an interesting puzzle for many years, but it has been resolved, it's no longer puzzling. The Gedrosia centered on the British Isles is from the Corded Ware. The Corded people from Germany were the first ancient sample in central/western Europe who had any Gedrosia at all, and they had 20 – 21% of it, more than any modern European population.<br /><br />@ Rokus<br /><br />Since R1b-L51 is very rare in eastern Europe and Anatolia it's quite possible that we will never find an ancient sample with this marker anywhere east of central Europe. So perhaps it really originated in central Europe, as you seem to believe. But it didn't grow on trees, it's descended from R1b-L23 which does exist in the east and which was found in Yamnaya.<br /><br />The new finding by Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy of R1b in Vucedol is interesting, as it opens up the possibility that this R1b came from Anatolia.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55333130178996238502015-07-09T18:31:57.281+03:002015-07-09T18:31:57.281+03:00@ Mirza
Europeans are descended from both, from p...@ Mirza<br /><br />Europeans are descended from both, from pre-IE people and from PIE. There are no Europeans without PIE admixture and no pure PIE. And I won't say that R1b is from local farmers because it doesn't look very likely at all, as I elaborated in my reply to Slumbery. But y-haplogroups don't matter much anyway, having a PIE haplogroup (whatever these were) doesn't make anyone more Indo-European than others, it represents just an infinitesimal part of ones ancestry.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44866470184031823412015-07-09T18:22:28.883+03:002015-07-09T18:22:28.883+03:00@ Rokus
I didn't say the R1b in Yamnaya is in...@ Rokus<br /><br />I didn't say the R1b in Yamnaya is indicative of Caucasus admixture. Rather, I thought it might be in line with it. It's a fact that Corded people have the same type of West Asian Caucasus-like admixture as Yamnaya has. And if this isn't related with their R1b it must be from their mothers, which would gel well with their mtDNA.<br /><br />Why do you think Yamnaya has just R1b1a2a2 as „their subclade“? Besides they also had R1b1a2a which may be ancestral to your R1b1a2a1.<br /><br />Given the eastern origin of R1b and the decreasing frequency of R1b from west to east it follows that later expansions from east to west carrying less R1b/more other haplogroups supplanted some of the R1b on their way. It would make sense if they had I2 clades, among others.<br />Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5873471166738718602015-07-09T18:09:04.999+03:002015-07-09T18:09:04.999+03:00@ Eurologist
Regarding the autosomal impact of th...@ Eurologist<br /><br />Regarding the autosomal impact of the original Indo-Iranians, Davidski from Eurogenes has recently modeled the modern Pathans very successfully with qpAdm as 63.4% Sintashta + 23.1% Georgians + 13.4% Dai. The fit was extremely good: chisq 0.049 tail prob 0.975924.<br /><br />As for the idea that Sintashta originated from Sardinian-like Farmers from SE Europe settling the steppe and mixing with Yamnaya-like people, I think it's dubious that they still existed at such a late date. There was the Yamnaya movement into southeastern Europe, and the Bronze Age Hungarians were clearly steppe admixed. Well, there is a Bronze Age and an early Iron Age sample from Bulgaria with rather strong West Asian components, so, who knows. But actually Sintashta people are very similar to Corded people, even in the yDNA, so the most natural assumption is that they are related with Corded people to the west, and hence not at all descended from early farmer-type people of SE Europe. (At least not directly, of course Corded people have also about 25% Middle Neolithic farmer ancestry.)Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83777799967213798242015-07-09T17:44:43.520+03:002015-07-09T17:44:43.520+03:00Slumbery,
The Iberian farmer was R1b-V88 or R1b1c...Slumbery,<br /><br />The Iberian farmer was R1b-V88 or R1b1c.<br /><br />The earliest attestation of R1b(xV88) in Europe west of the steppe is thus in the early Corded Ware male from Poland, and, a finding from a brand new thesis by Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy, in the Vucedol culture in Hungary. Both date to the same time, ca. 2860 – 2600 BC.<br /><br />The Corded Ware was about 75% Yamnaya-like in the autosomes. And there was Yamnaya in Hungary. Although it's possible that the R1b is from local farmers – wouldn't it be strange that there was no R1b all the time during the early and middle Neolithic, and then, just at the time when there was a major population upheaval with strong steppe-like admixture it pops up for the first time. It would be more natural to assume that it arrived at that time from the east. Especially since there was R1b(xV88) in the east, in Yamnaya.<br /><br />Moreover both Yamnaya and modern western Europeans have R1b-L23, which according to current estimates based on full sequence analysis isn't very old, perhaps 4400 BC. If this had originated in western Europe, how did it come to dominate on the steppe at such a late date and across such a vast distance, also keeping in mind that it was the other way round, there was a massive migration from the steppe to central Europe.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-522000965997213802015-07-06T18:00:29.028+03:002015-07-06T18:00:29.028+03:00Dear Mike Thomas,
Let's look at what YOU wrot...Dear Mike Thomas,<br /><br />Let's look at what YOU wrote. There's not denying that.<br /><br />"You haven't considered the fact that remedello (sic.), and copper age (sic.) italy (sic.) in general, didn't speak indo european (sic.). Perhaps your error lies in your reliance on 195os (sic.) archaeological theorems which (sic.) view Remedelo (sic.) as a "Kurganized culture". It's not."<br /><br />Parsing this, which is hard due to the many errors, we get:<br /><br />A statement, which you purport to be "the fact that Remedello [people] didn't speak Indo European."<br /><br />Thus, the question remains: how do you know what they spoke? Do the bones speak to you?<br /><br />Changing what you said after the fact is Standard Internet Lame (SIL), just like, say, posting workout selfies.mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53782812554199868602015-07-02T21:46:56.105+03:002015-07-02T21:46:56.105+03:00More on Y Haplogroup Q in Europe and North America...More on Y Haplogroup Q in Europe and North America:<br /><br />YHG L804 (and by implication L805 and L807 in Scandinavia) are fraternal subclades. <br /><br />See: http://www.haplogroup.org/blog/2014/07/17/q-cts3814-q-cts11969-two-y-dna-lineages/<br /><br />Mass DNA testing has produced some interesting results, including examples of YHG Q-CTS1780 in Scotland and Poland.<br /><br />See: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/amerind-y/dna-results<br /><br />Also, Roberta Estes has published additional data about YHQ Q in Europe and the Americas. (See: http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/)<br /><br />One commentator responded to this article:<br /><br />"I have tested as Q-M3 but have ancestry in Germany. My grandfather didn’t come to the U.S. until 1923. No one is native american."<br /><br />It appears that the Chinese findings of YHG Q-M3 aDNA in western China may have not have been a fluke after all, and YHG Q-M3 may have been widely scattered throughout northern Eurasia, including Europe.<br /><br />Getting back to linguistic evidence for a back migration from North America, here are two more examples of possible correspondences between Iroquoian and archaic Indo-European languages - in this case, Proto Celtic:<br /><br />‘to see’<br />*Proto Celtic <i>*ad-kwis-o-</i> (Matasovic)<br />Oneida <i>-atkatho-</i> verb 'see' made up of: (-atkatho-)<br />Cherokee <i>agowhtiha</i> v.t. 'he sees him, it'<br />Nottoway <i>waskehi</i> <br />Mohawk <i>aiontkáhtho/aié:ken</i><br />Mingo <i>ktukha</i>' “to see something or someone”<br />*PIE <i>*kweys-</i> 'perceive' (Pokorny)<br />*PIro <i>-atkahthw-</i> 'look at' (Charles)<br />*PIro <i>-kẽ(ː)-</i> 'see' (Charles)<br /><br />'breath' - *Proto Celtic has three forms:<br /><br /> <i>*anatlā-</i> <br /> <i>*atakā-</i> <br /> <i>*awelo-</i><br /><br />The latter is very close to the Oneida equivalent <i>awélyas</i> and also resembles Cherokee <i>k)awoladesgv</i>. (*PIro: PNI <i>*owɹaɁ</i> 'air, wind'/ *PIE <i>ḱewero-</i> 'wind' / Mingo <i>kææha'</i> 'wind to blow')<br /><br />The second form, <i>*atakā-</i>, on the other hand, more closely resembles Cherokee <i>a(jo)tasga</i> 'he's blowing, he's blowing (on it)'<br /><br />There are only a few examples. So far, I've identified over 60 potential candidate correspondences between Indo-European and Iroquoian/Siouan languages out of the 207 words of the Swadesh list, which is well above the 10 percent figure often regarded as 'noise' due to false cognates.<br /><br />In summary, I think it is increasing apparent that the Indo-European languages have a deep affinity with North American languages, and the most likely explanation involves a back migration from the Americas, which contributed to the "Native American component" in West Eurasians. <br /><br /> <br /><br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06029565423493357259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33337420614812628562015-06-28T01:35:22.092+03:002015-06-28T01:35:22.092+03:00Why don't you publish my comments? By the way ...Why don't you publish my comments? By the way I have two questions for you:<br />1. What is the percentage of Hellenic genetic input in Pontus "Greeks"? 0,0001%? <br />2. What is the percentage of Yamnaya admixture in mainland Greeks? 13% 16%?<br /><br />You were talking too much about Central Asian admixture in Turks without any genetic evidence. Why don't you enlighten us about Yamnaya/Indo-European admixture in modern Greece as well? "How Indo-European are Greek speakers?" or "How Hellenic are Pontus Greeks?". Sounds good in my opinion.<br /><br /> <br />antifahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08003843020795560064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80606713652662676392015-06-28T01:18:57.399+03:002015-06-28T01:18:57.399+03:00@Gary
Thanks for the link to the Vajda talk. Ver...@Gary<br /><br />Thanks for the link to the Vajda talk. Very interesting to learn about the Ket people and their linguistic and genetic links to the Nadene.AndyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073608165891123021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76912254543140842422015-06-27T12:32:06.665+03:002015-06-27T12:32:06.665+03:00Interesting article. By the way Dienekes, it appea...Interesting article. By the way Dienekes, it appears that Greeks have ~15% Yamnaya-related ancestry (original Indo-European according to many) at most. And what do you think about the fact that Pontic "Greeks" are just acculturated northeast Anatolians? <br /><br />Speaking of ancestry, it has become even more clear that Anatolian Turks have 10-12% East Eurasian admixture on average, based on the autosomal DNA results of 50+ members in our Turkish DNA project (see FTDNA Anatolia project). What I'm trying to say is, even if you take Kazakhs as a perfect genetic representative for the Turks that conquered Anatolia centuries ago it would still make Anatolian Turks more Turkic than Greeks are Indo-European. How sad, is not it? <br /><br />Also, what do you think about this? http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/<br /><br /><br />I remember a time when you said only O and C haplogroups can be linked with the spread of the Turkic languages. As science advances, pseudo-scientific views (or "propagandas" to be precise) of some amateur bloggers retreats. For example, R1a and R1b are not European haplogroups as has been said for many years, they are "Ancient North Eurasian". Also, all of the ancient samples from Altai region seem predominantly west eurasian. You've been spreading the myth that proto-Turks were 100% East Eurasian even though you have no genetic/linguistic/archeological evidence to back it up. <br /><br />Anyway, keep living in the world where Greeks are a pure race while Turks are only %5 Turkic. No one buys your propaganda anymore. antifahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08003843020795560064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15844759920303123142015-06-26T17:49:52.923+03:002015-06-26T17:49:52.923+03:00According to http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/euro...According to http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml which is drawing upon info from Sergey Malyshev, the early Neolithic R1b1 farmer was R1b-V88! That's the African variant of R1b, definitely not ancestral to R1b-M269.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72505236064855172352015-06-26T17:42:43.697+03:002015-06-26T17:42:43.697+03:00'The Corded Ware was basically R1a from northe...<i>'The Corded Ware was basically R1a from northern EHG, but had R1b admixture, which accounts for the similar strong Caucasus admixture. The Bell Beaker R1b derives via founder effects from the Corded Ware R1b.'</i><br /><br />The first Corded Ware R1b(a2a1) sample still has to be found! And how this hypothezised R1b could ever be indicative of any "strong Caucasus admixture" of Corded Ware? Moreover, Caucasus R1b, like Yamnaya R1ba2a2, belongs to another subclade than Bell Beaker samples that have R1ba2a1.<br />Maybe you 'assume' RISE98 Nordic LN (soutnern Sweden) to be derived from corded Ware? Please take into consideration the strong influences of an important Danish bell Beaker (Jutland) nearby. This culture has been described as derived from the Dutch Veluwe group, a location were U106 is frequent and diverse.<br /><br /><i>'Since Italo-Celtic at this early stage was still an I2 language and centered in and around the Carpathian Basin, we cannot expect the early R1b wave to Britain to have been Celtic.'</i><br /><br />Given the current array of I2I2a subclades in Vatya and Yamnaya we can't expect any wave of Italo-Celtic wave emanating out of the hypothetized Hungarian stop-over. The utter absence of evidence for a Kurganic identity of European language groups except Greek and Armenian isn't new, however, and I agree that English I2a2a1a1 is too old and unique to be related to LN or EBA immigrants of any alien kind at all.<br />Rokushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13883125231922541439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60408713025921467652015-06-26T16:39:58.622+03:002015-06-26T16:39:58.622+03:00@Tobus -
How closely the European subclades of YH...@Tobus -<br /><br />How closely the European subclades of YHG Q are related to North American subclades depends on how long ago they diverged, and in truth we don't really know. The oldest aDNA is Afontova-Gora2, and that has been dated to 17000YBP, or only about 2000 years before the Americas were settled. It might also be that some of the European subclades represent "lost" North American subclades. In truth, North American DNA is undersampled, as has been pointed out repeatedly in these blogs, and we have only begun to scratch the surface of North American aDNA. One thing that is sure is that there are numerous parallels between archaic Indo-European languages and modern North American languages. For instance, as I pointed out previously, the Swedish word for 'and', <i>och</i> in very close to its Lenape (Algonkian) counterpart <i>ok</i> and Mohawk (Iroquoian)<i>nok</i>. Here are some more examples from the regions of Sweden where YHG Q is most abundant: <br /><br />E Sweden (Vi) Cherokee/Mohawk Siouan<br />‘this’ <i>a hana</i> / <i>hina</i> (Ch) / <i>hinné</i> (Crow)<br />‘that’ <i>a dana</i> <i>na</i> (Ch.) / <i>hena</i> (Lakota) <br />‘here' <i>har, hena, henan</i> / <i>ahani</i> (Ch.) / <i>den</i> (Dakota)<br />‘there’ <i>dar, dena, den an</i> / <i>nahnai</i> (Ch.) / <i>hen</i> (Dakota) <br />‘who' <i>vam, hokan</i> / <i>ónhkha</i> (Mo.) /<br /><br />My suggested etymology of Proto-Celtic <i>*gladio-</i> or <i>*kladio-</i> is not merely an "opportunistic speculation from a single data point". I clearly placed my discussion of this etymology in the context of other examples from the semantic field of "Weapons and Tools", and I've previously pointed out a large number of candidate correspondences between Indo-European and North American languages. The Cherokee word for 'ax', <i>galuysdi</i> which is different from the equivalent Northern Iroquoian forms, resembles forms for "Weapons and Tools" from Baltic Old Prussian: <i>kalabijan</i> ‘sword’, <i>kalpus</i> ‘ax’, <i>kalmus</i> ’stump’, <i>keljan</i> 'spear'. The root for the Cherokee form is likely derived from *Proto Iroquoian <i>-kaɹ-</i> 'to bite', and is also likely related to Anatolian forms such as Luwian <i>karsti</i> and Hittite <i>kuērzi</i>, 'to cut'. (Other possibly related terms include Cherokee <i>agvhalvda</i> ‘a piece of something that's been cut', where 'v' represents a nasalized 'u', and ’Proto-Germanic <i>*halbaz</i> "something divided".) At any rate, if you feel there are better proposed etymologies for <i>*gladio-</i> / <i>*kladio-</i> from Nostatic or Eurasiatic, then feel free to post them.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06029565423493357259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65873349746525145542015-06-26T13:45:44.564+03:002015-06-26T13:45:44.564+03:00Simon_W,
I don't see a problem with that, at ...Simon_W,<br /><br />I don't see a problem with that, at all. In an initial, quick expansion into already occupied territory, autosomal DNA <b>typically</b> dilutes quickly, leaving very little trace within just several generations. However, if the initial culture is very successful, later waves can dominate also in autosomal DNA.<br /><br />Language and autosomal DNA can be strongly coupled (e.g., Icelandic, Pennsylvanian "Dutch") but also strongly decoupled (e.g., Hungarian, Mexican Spanish) after several generations. By the time of Indo-Iranian I doubt there was much autosomal trace left from the original IE speakers.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74145320402399926132015-06-25T17:39:52.239+03:002015-06-25T17:39:52.239+03:00@ Mooreisbetter
You say;
* "How do you k...@ Mooreisbetter <br /><br /><br />You say; <br /><br />* "How do you know what language the Remedello people spoke? Do you have a time machine?"<br /><br />I never claimed I "know" what language they spoke. In fact, that is what <i>you</i> claimed ("The Remedello culture of Northern Italy is acknowledged to be the first example of the Indo-European influx into that area. .. This is settled, and I have read dozens of posters here make statements to that effect in the past.") So you appear to have a defective memory, and a propensity to confabulation, to begin with. <br /><br />Rather, what I stated was that we should consider the possibility that Remedello is not, in fact, a 'Kurgan ("PIE") culture'. Not everything that had wheels and heriarchy need be 'Indo-European'. Anyone with half a brain would realize that. So it seems rather that it is **you** that has made the simplistic, circular reasoning that you wrongly and unsuccesfully attempted to paint me with. <br /><br /><br />* You jest: "They bore Y-Chromosome Hg I, so they couldn't have been Indo-European-speaking, since Indo-Europeans were all R1, and that therefore proves IEs were R1." T<br /><br />I never said that. Not being a halfwit, I wouldn;t make any simplistic and implicit links between genes and language. <br /><br /><br />* You then engage in a long-winded pile of self-gratuitous pontification, making statements like<br /><br />"Italy has a well-preserved prehistory and well-documented history"<br />-> A+ to Captain Obvious. <br /><br /><br />"We have a good sense of when the first Indo-Europeans came into the region {Italy}"<br />-> Ok. So it is clearly you that has a time machine, because, frankly, i don't really know when IE arrived to Italy. ? Neolithic (unlikely), ? Copper Age, ?Bronze Age, even late Bronze/ early Iron Age ?? Certainly, Italic languages all seem to date to c. 1000 BC, if you've read recent perspectives (which I doubt). <br /><br />"I-M26 ..holds one of the keys to understanding the process of Indo-Europeanization. "<br />--> Really? Well, of course its important, because clearly it was still around during the Indo-Europeanization process - whenever and however that occurred. <br />But the fact is, m26 was around In mesolithic, and likely Late UP Europe, and became Neolithicized. Everything points to M26 being western, linking it perhaps with France,Iberia, etc. The autosomal look of the I2 samples from Remedello looked Neolithic. So im not sure how you link it so explicitly with your bizarre theory of IE'ization {from the Palaeolithic west}.<br /><br /><br />* "Certainly you won't reply"<br /><br />I did; and have shown that you don't know what you're talking about. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.com