tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4113972707486174872..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Origin and dispersal of Y chromosome haplogroup C (Zhong et al. 2010)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47066593712272692162010-10-14T17:16:23.283+03:002010-10-14T17:16:23.283+03:00Best explanation for SRY10831.1a>g Positive and...Best explanation for SRY10831.1a>g Positive and SRY10831.2G>A:<br /><br />http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/427.full.pdf<br /><br />Summary :<br /><br />"In sum, the evidence points to the following: (1)an ancestral G allele at the DYS257 STS, (2) a single origin for the DYS257-A allele in human evolution, and<br />(3) the occurrence of both an A>G transition and a G>A reversion at the SRY10831 site. This information<br />conclusively demonstrates that the root of the tree is haplotype 1A and resolves the reticulation in the haplotype network.<br /><br />This mutational event defines the origin of haplotype 1B from its recursor, 1A. The second (G>A reversion)mutational event at this site, representing the evolution of haplotype 1D from 1C, did not occur until more than 100,000 years later. The estimated age of the YAP insertional event marking the origin of the YAP1 clade was 5,000 6 19,000 years. Subsequent mutations on this lineage occurred between approximately 11,000 and 31,000 years ago."<br /><br />If either SRY10831.1 or 10831.2 are negative at the site, the haplotype is not B/BT, i.e., African/khoisan, but European R1a.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71636428044151174192010-05-21T01:43:59.116+03:002010-05-21T01:43:59.116+03:00In a previous comment, I said:
"The frequenc...In a previous comment, I said:<br /><br />"The frequency of haplogroup C (essentially C3*-M217 in this case) in samples of Kazakhs has varied from about 23% (Karafet et al. 1999) to about 75% (present study). Kazakhs need to be more thoroughly sampled."<br /><br />I should not have put an asterisk in C3-M217 in this context. Please excuse this silly mistake of mine. <br /><br />According to Wells et al. 2001 and Zerjal et al. 2002, most Kazakhs in Kazakhstan (or at least some part of it) belong to the subclade C3c-M48. This contrasts with the present study's sample of Kazakhs from Xinjiang, most of whom have been placed in C3*-M217.<br /><br />Wells et al. 2001<br />Kazak/Kazakstan<br />1/54 = 1.9% D-M174<br /><b>5/54 = 9.3% C-M130(xC3c-M48)<br />31/54 = 57.4% C3c-M48</b><br />1/54 = 1.9% F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1-M52, K-M9)<br />1/54 = 1.9% O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2a-M95, O3-M122)<br />5/54 = 9.3% O3-M122<br />1/54 = 1.9% N1c-M46<br />3/54 = 5.6% P-M45(xQ1a1-M120, Q1a3a-M3, R1-M173, R2-M124)<br />1/54 = 1.9% R2-M124<br />3/54 = 5.6% R1-M173(xR1a1a-M17)<br />2/54 = 3.7% R1a1a-M17(xR1a1a3-M87)<br /><br />Zerjal et al. 2002 (probably a subset of the sample analyzed by Wells et al. 2001)<br />Kazaks/Kazakstan: Almaty, Katon-Karagay, Karatutuk, and Rachmanovsky Kluchi<br />1/38 = 2.6% DE-YAP(xE-SRY8299)<br /><b>4/38 = 10.5% C-M130(xC3c-M48)<br />24/38 = 63.2% C3c-M48</b><br />5/38 = 13.2% K-M9(xL-M20, N1-LLY22g, O1-MSY2.2, P-92R7)<br />3/38 = 7.9% P-92R7(xR1a1-SRY1532)<br />1/38 = 2.6% R1a1a-M17<br /><br />Karafet et al. 1999<br />Kazakhs<br />7/22 = 31.8% BT-SRY10831.1(xC-M130, DE-YAP, K-M9)<br /><b>5/22 = 22.7% C-M130</b><br />5/22 = 22.7% K-M9(xM2a-SRY9138, N1c-Tat, P-DYS257)<br />3/22 = 13.6% N1c-Tat<br />2/22 = 9.1% P-DYS257(xQ1a3a-DYS199, R1a1-SRY10831.2)<br /><br />Karafet et al. 2001<br />Kazakhs<br /><b>12/30 = 40.0% C3-M217</b><br />4/30 = 13.3% F-P14(xI-P19, G2a-P15, J-p12f2, K-M9)<br />1/30 = 3.3% G2a-P15<br />3/30 = 10.0% J-p12f2(xJ2-M172)<br />1/30 = 3.3% J2-M172<br />3/30 = 10.0% N1c-Tat<br />3/30 = 10.0% O3a3c-M134<br />1/30 = 3.3% P-P27(xR-M207, Q1a3a-M3)<br />2/30 = 6.7% R1b1-P25<br /><br />Wei-Hua Shou et al. 2010<br />Kazakh/NE Xinjiang<br /><b>24/41 = 58.5% C-M130</b><br />1/41 = 2.4% D-M174(xD1-M15)<br />2/41 = 4.9% F-M89(xG-M201, H-M69, I-M170, J-M304, K-M9)<br />1/41 = 2.4% G-M201<br />1/41 = 2.4% J-M304(xJ2-M172)<br />1/41 = 2.4% K-M9(xN-M231, O-M175, P-M45)<br />4/41 = 9.8% N-M231<br />3/41 = 7.3% O3a3c-M134<br />1/41 = 2.4% R*-M207(xR1-M173, R2-M124)<br />2/41 = 4.9% R1a1a-M17<br />1/41 = 2.4% R1b-M343<br /><br />Hua Zhong et al. 2010<br />Hazak (Xinjiang)<br /><b>40/53 = 75.5% C3*-M217(xC3a-M93, C3b-P39, C3c-M48, C3d-M407, C3e-P53.1, C3f-P62)</b>Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50334262675573678812010-05-15T07:37:51.970+03:002010-05-15T07:37:51.970+03:00Here are some historical portraits and photos of t...Here are some historical portraits and photos of the Shawnee(Algonquian) in this wiki page:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shawnee.jpg<br /><br />The photo in the center of the images is of Tecumseh:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh<br /><br />Here's a map showing the range of Algonquian languages:<br /><br />http://www.freebase.com/view/en/<br />algonquian_languagesMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32724221718320338372010-05-15T01:32:41.883+03:002010-05-15T01:32:41.883+03:00"You'll have to ask Underhill et alii if ..."You'll have to ask Underhill et alii if you want to obtain more details about the Maori cases of R1-M173" <br /><br />Apparently yes. I haven't spoken to Underhill but I've corresponded with one of the authors, Geoff Chambers. <br /><br />"for years I've been puzzled by the European and Asian looking features in indigenous Americans. Even before DNA, I've always thought that it couldn't be only due to recent admixture". <br /><br />I strongly suspect that the mixing occurred in Central Asia before the movement into America. In other words the two phenotypes were already in existence by that time.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76655287820399869042010-05-14T01:42:01.906+03:002010-05-14T01:42:01.906+03:00"You'll have to ask Underhill et alii if ..."You'll have to ask Underhill et alii if you want to obtain more details"<br /><br />Well, that's fine I think. The Maori, and anybody else, are entitled to a little bit of privacy, I think.<br /><br />I'm really asking because for years I've been puzzled by the European and Asian looking features in indigenous Americans. Even before DNA, I've always thought that it couldn't be only due to recent admixture. So I'm wondering if there will ever be a way to distinguish recent and ancient admixture in American indigenous people.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55992263687035785282010-05-13T23:23:25.219+03:002010-05-13T23:23:25.219+03:00Marnie asked,
"So, dumb question, is the Mao...Marnie asked,<br /><br />"So, dumb question, is the Maori R1-M173 all European?"<br /><br />I would guess so. You'll have to ask Underhill <i>et alii</i> if you want to obtain more details about the Maori cases of R1-M173, though, because they have not published any Y-STRs for any of the Maori individuals whose haplogroup has been "considered of European heritage."Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40438330422462389942010-05-13T23:09:33.428+03:002010-05-13T23:09:33.428+03:00I read the paper again and this is a very poor pap...I read the paper again and this is a very poor paper. Except gathering data on C3 sublineages there is nothing new and the conclusions seem to have been pre-drawn.<br /><br />There is pressure to publish something in academia and that pressure is more severe in China.<br /><br />I personally heard of complaints about Chinese researchers and their aggressiveness.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74965785022310103162010-05-13T22:40:16.334+03:002010-05-13T22:40:16.334+03:00"I really wonder when these C3* moved from Ch..."I really wonder when these C3* moved from China to Japan. It's possible that part of C3* were brought to Japan by Microlithic hunter-gatherers, and part of C3* were carried to Japan by early farmers from the coastline of China. And how would Ainu C3* fit in the picture?"<br /><br />I wonder about these questions too.<br /><br />In so many ways, the difference between Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Han Chinese and Tibetan culture, to name a few, seems thousands of years old.<br /><br />In many ways, some of the practices of some Asian cultures seem closer to some North American indigenous groups than to each other. <br /><br />It's an extremely complex picture.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54308042134669914072010-05-13T22:34:06.705+03:002010-05-13T22:34:06.705+03:00yungsiyebu:
Regarding:
"I got so much laugh...yungsiyebu:<br /><br />Regarding:<br /><br />"I got so much laugh out of "Han Chinese cultural demic defusion". Bing Su tried to tone down his usual Chinese nationalism but not successfully.(I suppose that "cultural" was inserted just to avoid the protests from Koreans.)<br /><br />"I also don't agree with author's statement of "Han Chinese cultural demic defusion" for explantion of Hg C3d's Southward migration, that should be related to pre-historic microlithic culture expanding from the north to the southwest of China."<br /><br />Pre-historic microlithic cultural expansion from the north to the southwest. . . Can you expand on this?<br /><br />Can you help us with your thoughts on dates and motivation for some of these expansions? <br /><br />Thank you.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44604840802776479152010-05-13T22:29:21.843+03:002010-05-13T22:29:21.843+03:00This study uses 7 locus STRs and it should be expe...This study uses 7 locus STRs and it should be expected that homoplasy is very rampant.<br /><br />That Japanese C3*'s cluster with Chinese may be just that.<br /><br />It should be noted that most of China's coastline was home to non-Chinese peoples as late as in 300 BC(some even in the 11th century) as noted by the various Chinese chronicles.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70350894802249610052010-05-13T22:29:21.844+03:002010-05-13T22:29:21.844+03:00Ebizur:
So, dumb question, is the Maori R1-M173 a...Ebizur:<br /><br />So, dumb question, is the Maori R1-M173 all European?Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44739279863025522932010-05-13T18:39:05.788+03:002010-05-13T18:39:05.788+03:00The paper indicates:
"Interestingly, beside...The paper indicates: <br /><br />"Interestingly, besides Hg C1, Japanese also have M217-derived individuals who have a close relationship with the Han Chinese ( Figures 3a and b ), rather than with the Altaic-speaking populations." <br /><br />I really wonder when these C3* moved from China to Japan. It's possible that part of C3* were brought to Japan by Microlithic hunter-gatherers, and part of C3* were carried to Japan by early farmers from the coastline of China. And how would Ainu C3* fit in the picture?<br /><br />MJ Network of C3*:<br /><br />http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1005/100513211553d82886dae8179a.pngMasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03226049899081714570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89430218188472546872010-05-13T10:55:45.275+03:002010-05-13T10:55:45.275+03:00I got so much laugh out of "Han Chinese cultu...I got so much laugh out of "Han Chinese cultural demic defusion". Bing Su tried to tone down his usual Chinese nationalism but not successfully.(I suppose that "cultural" was inserted just to avoid the protests from Koreans.)<br /><br />---<br /><br />I also don't agree with author's statement of "Han Chinese cultural demic defusion" for explantion of Hg C3d's Southward migration, that should be related to pre-historic microlithic culture expanding from the north to the southwest of China.Mongolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14828932166698400276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75806709561857518012010-05-13T05:25:35.794+03:002010-05-13T05:25:35.794+03:00Marnie said,
"Thanks for the info on the wes...Marnie said,<br /><br />"Thanks for the info on the western most representations of C (Kazakhs) and southern most (Maori). <br /><br />I was wondering about New Zealand, since its considered to be indigenously polynesian."<br /><br />You're welcome.<br /><br />Maori (Underhill et al. 2001, "Maori Origins, Y-Chromosome Haplotypes and Implications for Human History in the Pacific")<br />23/54 = 42.6% C2-M38<br />1/54 = 1.9% G-M201<br />5/54 = 9.3% I-M170<br />1/54 = 1.9% J2-M172<br />1/54 = 1.9% J-12f2(xJ2-M172)<br />3/54 = 5.6% O3-M122<br />1/54 = 1.9% K-M9(xL-M11, M1-M4, M2a-SRY9138, N1c1-M178, O-M175, P-M45, T-M70)<br />18/54 = 33.3% R1-M173<br />1/54 = 1.9% P-M45(xQ1a1-M120, Q1a2-M25, R1-M173, R2-M124)<br /><br />As you may see, the modern Maori appear to be only half Polynesian in regard to their patrilineal ancestry.<br /><br />Han-Jun Jin et al., "Y-chromosomal DNA haplogroups and their implications for the dual origins of the Koreans," Human Genetics (2003) 114 : 27–35<br />Manchurian ("In addition, we included the following new Chinese and Mongolian samples: 39 Yunnan Han, 44 Manchurians, and 49 Khalkhs.")<br />10/44 = 22.7% C-RPS4Y<br />1/44 = 2.3% DE-YAP<br />2/44 = 4.5% K-M9(xO-M175)<br />22/44 = 50.0% O-M175(xLINE1, SRY465, M95)<br />2/44 = 4.5% O-M175(+LINE1)<br />2/44 = 4.5% O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)<br />5/44 = 11.4% O2b1-47z<br /><br />Han-Jun Jin et al. (2009)<br />Manchurians<br />10/48 = 20.8% C<br />1/48 = 2.1% DE<br />1/48 = 2.1% K(xNO)<br />1/48 = 2.1% NO(xO)<br />1/48 = 2.1% O(xO1, O2, O3)<br />1/48 = 2.1% O2(xO2a, O2b)<br />4/48 = 8.3% O2b(xO2b1)<br />9/48 = 18.8% O2b1<br />16/48 = 33.3% O3(xLINE1)<br />4/48 = 8.3% O3+LINE1<br /><br />Toru Katoh et al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004)<br />Manchu ("...collected in the northeastern part of<br />China.")<br />9/101 = 8.9% C-M130(xC3c-M48)<br />8/101 = 7.9% C3c-M48<br />17/101 = 16.8% C-M130 total<br /><br />2/101 = 2.0% K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)<br />1/101 = 1.0% O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2b-SRY465, O3-M122)<br />3/101 = 3.0% O1a-M119<br />34/101 = 33.7% O2b-SRY465<br />43/101 = 42.6% O3-M122<br />1/101 = 1.0% P-M45(xR1a1-SRY1532)<br /><br />Haplogroup diversity: 0.6966±0.0289<br />No. of STR haplotypes: 52<br />STR haplotype diversity: 0.9404±0.0165<br /><br />Karafet et al. 2001 ("Manchu (Liaoning)") & Hammer et al. 2005<br />Manchu<br />14/52 = 26.9% C3-M217(xC3c-M86)<br />1/52 = 1.9% J-p12f2(xJ2-M172)<br />2/52 = 3.8% N1-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)<br />1/52 = 1.9% N1a-M128<br />3/52 = 5.8% O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2-P31, O3-M122)<br />7/52 = 13.5% O3-M122(xM134, LINE1)<br />8/52 = 15.4% O3a3c-M134<br />5/52 = 9.6% O3-M122(+LINE1)<br />2/52 = 3.8% O1a-M119(xO1a2-M110)<br />3/52 = 5.8% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465/P49)<br />2/52 = 3.8% O2b-P49(xO2b1-47z)<br />2/52 = 3.8% R-UTY2(xR1-M173)<br />1/52 = 1.9% R1-M173(xR1b1-DYS194.469, R1a1-SRY10831.2)<br />1/52 = 1.9% R1a1-SRY10831.2<br /><br />Yali Xue et al., "Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times," Genetics 172: 2431–2439 (April 2006)<br />Manchu (The dot for the Manchu sample has been placed in Liaoning in the map in Figure 2.)<br />8/35 = 22.9% C3-M217(xC3c-M48)<br />1/35 = 2.9% C3c-M48<br />9/35 = 25.7% C3-M217 total<br /><br />1/35 = 2.9% DE-YAP(xE-SRY4064)<br />1/35 = 2.9% K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)<br />2/35 = 5.7% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)<br />2/35 = 5.7% N1a-M128<br />1/35 = 2.9% N1b-P43<br />1/35 = 2.9% O1a-M119<br />3/35 = 8.6% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)<br />2/35 = 5.7% O2b*-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)<br />3/35 = 8.6% O3-M122(xLY1, M159, M7, M134)<br />3/35 = 8.6% O3-M122+LY1(xM159, M7, M134)<br />2/35 = 5.7% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)<br />5/35 = 14.3% O3a3c1-M117<br /><br />Manchu total (Han-Jun Jin et al. 2003 + Katoh et al. 2004 + Karafet et al. 2001 + Xue et al. 2006)<br />50/232 = 21.6% C-M130 [17/101 = 16.8% - 14/52 = 26.9%]<br /><br />As I have mentioned in my third point above, the present study's sample of Manchus from Heilongjiang Province reveals a much higher proportion of Y-DNA haplogroup C, but the sample size is so small that I am unsure of the statistical significance of this difference:<br /><br />Manchu (Heilongjiang)<br />8/25 = 32% C3-M217(xC3a-M93, C3b-P39, C3c-M48, C3d-M407, C3e-P53.1, C3f-P62)<br />3/25 = 12% C3c-M48<br />11/25 = 44% C-M130 totalEbizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28798582628142397592010-05-13T03:26:12.732+03:002010-05-13T03:26:12.732+03:00This is slightly off topic regarding haplogroups, ...This is slightly off topic regarding haplogroups, but not regarding anthropology.<br /><br />I came across this Tlingit "Traditional Checklist". The Tlingit are a Na-Dene people of the Pacific coast of Alaska and British Columbia. Yes, they do look quite "Asian".<br /><br />Here's their wonderful checklist:<br /><br />http://www.ankn.uaf.edu/curriculum/<br />Tlingit/MathinWeaving/educationchecklist.htmlMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27674158410361896132010-05-12T14:34:33.621+03:002010-05-12T14:34:33.621+03:00Li Jin's own massive data had the percentage o...Li Jin's own massive data had the percentage of C130(RPS4Y711T) among Han Chinese at 2 percent for southern Chinese and 4 percent for northern Chinese.<br />The discrepancies(with this study) cannot all be attributed to sampling.<br />Every effort appears to have been expended in order to make it appear that Han Chinese were the source, not the recipient of genes in East Asia.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19432142985236779232010-05-12T13:26:36.927+03:002010-05-12T13:26:36.927+03:00"I was wondering about New Zealand, since its..."I was wondering about New Zealand, since its considered to be indigenously polynesian". <br /><br />As Ebizur wrote, 'If the European influence were excluded, over 80% of the Maori should belong to haplogroup C2'. So, no C3 in NZ Maori. <br /><br />"Much of it is sinocentric garbage". <br /><br />I had that impression a little when I first saw this post yesterday. However the research is not completely without value.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61825512564965395662010-05-12T11:19:38.096+03:002010-05-12T11:19:38.096+03:00If you posted a comment on this yesterday it may h...If you posted a comment on this yesterday it may have been lost in a moderation accident. Unfortunately I have had to start moderating comments because of the appearance of certain trolls, but I deleted a bunch of comments by accident when I meant to delete a single one. So, if it's not too much trouble, post your comment again.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87837582696294772092010-05-12T08:59:54.763+03:002010-05-12T08:59:54.763+03:00I got so much laugh out of "Han Chinese cultu...I got so much laugh out of "Han Chinese cultural demic defusion". Bing Su tried to tone down his usual Chinese nationalism but not successfully.(I suppose that "cultural" was inserted just to avoid the protests from Koreans.)<br /><br />Among his other masterpieces is "Han Chinese Neolithic" apparently referring to Hongshan culture of Inner Mongolia, a place Chinese were forbidden to enter until the 20th century.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91089041548832326862010-05-12T08:41:38.403+03:002010-05-12T08:41:38.403+03:00This is not a new study. Bing Su's old trick....This is not a new study. Bing Su's old trick. Much of it is sinocentric garbage.Hectorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12971694159010797162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85973809034863479542010-05-11T06:05:07.325+03:002010-05-11T06:05:07.325+03:00Thanks for the explanation of C3 in Kazakhs and th...Thanks for the explanation of C3 in Kazakhs and the Maori.<br /><br />Thanks for the info on the western most representations of C (Kazakhs) and southern most (Maori). <br /><br />I was wondering about New Zealand, since its considered to be indigenously polynesian.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53273807025402986422010-05-11T03:58:48.685+03:002010-05-11T03:58:48.685+03:00Just a few brief comments:
1. Note to Aaron and A...Just a few brief comments:<br /><br />1. Note to Aaron and Andrew: the black in "NW Norway and those northern islands in the arctic circle" is not part of the gradient shading that represents Y-DNA haplogroup C, but rather part of the black outline that marks the boundaries of countries and the edges of bodies of land.<br /><br />2. This study's reported frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup C in Polynesia is much too low. The average for Polynesia as a whole should be greater than 50% C2; some Polynesian populations, such as the Maori of New Zealand, have only about 40% Y-DNA haplogroup C2, but half of present-day Maori males appear to be patrilineally descended from recent European males, as they belong to haplogroups R1-M173, I-M170, etc. If the European influence were excluded, over 80% of the Maori should belong to haplogroup C2.<br /><br />3. This study's small sample of Manchus from Heilongjiang Province of northeasternmost China contains a much greater percentage of Y-DNA haplogroup C3 than previous studies' samples of Manchus, most of which have been obtained from the province of Liaoning.<br /><br />4. The frequency of haplogroup C (essentially C3*-M217 in this case) in samples of Kazakhs has varied from about 23% (Karafet et al. 1999) to about 75% (present study). Kazakhs need to be more thoroughly sampled.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-27028907552355107502010-05-11T02:44:16.241+03:002010-05-11T02:44:16.241+03:00"The presence of the mtDNA C3b (P39) haplogro..."The presence of the mtDNA C3b (P39) haplogroup in the Na-Dene imply a lack of genetic identity with the Inuit or other modern Eskimo populations..."<br /><br />In fact, Y-DNA haplogroup C3b (P39) was detected in Greenland Eskimo populations. See Bosch, E., F. Calafell, Z. H. Rosser, S. Norby, N. Linnerup, M. E. Hurles, and M. A. Jobling. 2003. High level of male-biased Scandinavian admixture in Greenlandic Inuit shown by Y-chromosomal analysis. Hum. Genet. 112:353-363German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49647167110475218452010-05-11T02:17:52.654+03:002010-05-11T02:17:52.654+03:00Andrew,
I'm quoting from the Stanford paper, ...Andrew,<br /><br />I'm quoting from the Stanford paper, who do qualify what they mean by Amerind and Na-Dene. Please see the paper. The links are open, so you should have no problem getting access to the material.<br /><br />Your argument against a grouping of Eskimo with "Na-Dene" is an argument with that paper.<br /><br />It's true that the genetic associations between Siberian and North American populations are somewhat unclear at this point.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60237999176083305582010-05-11T02:08:31.253+03:002010-05-11T02:08:31.253+03:00@Marnie Re: NaDene
It is problematic to associate...@Marnie Re: NaDene<br /><br />It is problematic to associate the Na-Dene with Eskimo rather than Amerind populations. <br /><br />The Ket of Siberia whose language (Yenesian) is part of the same language family as the Na-Dene, is not ethnically or linguistically closely related to modern Eskimo (aka Inuit) populations. <br /><br />The presence of the mtDNA C3b (P39) haplogroup in the Na-Dene imply a lack of genetic identity with the Inuit or other modern Eskimo populations (and a likely ancestral connection to South American tribes who have also in the case of one tribe shown an mtDNA X2 haplotype). <a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001764" rel="nofollow">Similarly</a>, mtDNA haplotypes D2a in the Aleuts and Eskimos and D3 in the Eskimos are private haplotypes not found in the Na-Dene, and mtDna haplotype A2b found in the Inuit and Siberians but not the Na-Dene, also suggesting a lack of population genetic identity. The mtDNA A2, B2, C1 and D1 divergence dates are all similar and the alignment of those divergence dates and the divergence dates of the related Northeast Siberian clades basal to them also suggest a single episode of pre-Eskimo arrival for Native Americans. The fact that the Na-Dene, Inuits and Siberians share mtDNA type A2a "is probably due to secondary expansions of haplogroup A2 from Beringia long after the end of the LGM" according to <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2258150/" rel="nofollow">Achilli (2008)</a> (i.e. it back migrated, quite possibly due to introgression from Na-Dene into Inuit populations after the Inuits reach North America ca. 3000 BCE).<br /><br />So using archeological evidence of Eskimo culture arriving ca. 3000 BCE to imply Na-Dene culture arriving at that time is problematic. There is indisputable evidence of modern human populations in the Americas from 13500 years ago in the Pacific Northwest, and I am aware of no archeological evidence that distinguishes a later date.<br /><br />The Na-Dene have about 25% mtDNA X2a (a haplotype shared also by 15% of Algonquins, 10% of Sioux and 6-10% of other Northwest Coastal Indian groups, as well as with a variety of Asians (the only group to have X*, X1 and X2 in abundance are the Druze in Israel, so it probably originated in Asia).<br /><br />Y-DNA Q (M242) is also present at about 25% in the Na-Dene and while unusual in being found in both the Northeast Asia and the Americas, has an estimated date of origin consistent with being part of the original migration.<br /><br />The migration of the NaDene from the Pacific Northwest to the Navajo areas in the American Southwest dates to <a href="http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/130/1/153" rel="nofollow">about 1000 AD</a>, but this does not mean that the Na-Dene arrived later in time than other early Native Americans.<br /><br />A more plausible hypothesis is that there were multiple tribes in Beringia, that the Na-Dene tribe was the only one with a substantial Siberian component (perhaps the leader of other groups) and that some daughter tribes of those tribes took a Pacific route, while others an Atlantic route, with the Na-Dene daughter tribes being among those taking the Atlantic route but not among those taking the Pacific route. It is also appears fairly likely from the archeology that the Clovis (whose archeological evidence is more abundant in the East than in the West and generally clines from East to West) may correspond to the Atlantic route rather than the Pacific one; and that Na-Dene daughter tribes may have been among the Clovis.<br /><br />The fact that the Na-Dene may have closer ties to modern Siberians than some other tribes of Native Americans may be a product of the other tribes being more distant (from the East and Southeast Asia) and may also be a reflection of the Asian relatives of other early American Indian tribes being completely destroyed, while the Ket have merely been reduced to a few thousand people but survived.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.com