tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4095218854875762596..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: 23andMe Ancestry CompositionDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89414856856665822562014-10-06T19:21:36.688+03:002014-10-06T19:21:36.688+03:00@Gypsy Woman, Speculative does not = not accurate....@Gypsy Woman, Speculative does not = not accurate. Once you go "sub-regional" I would take it with a grain of salt. The rule of thumb, if it does show in conservative and standard, the assignment is correct if showing more in speculative, at the basic level. <br /><br />For most people of predominately Sub-Saharan African ancestry, the estimate is much smaller in "conservative" and "standard." There are people 90% SSA, while in "conservative" are 20% SSA, appear in "standard" as 60% and then "Speculative" as 90% SSA.<br />Sub-Saharan African alleles are very unique and easily detectable unlike non-SSA alleles. <br /><br />Also, ancestry estimation is not telling you how you look. These areas detected for ancestry are "non-exom" regions of the DNA that are not "genes." These areas examined for ancestry are in non-coding regions of the DNA. Something most newbies don't understand. Only 1% of ones DNA accounts for phenotype. <br /><br />As far as looking "Latina" or "Mexican" those populations are mixed European, Native American and African, in varying amounts. People from the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico will have more African ancestry than your average Mexican. These areas had a lot of slaves. <br /><br />There are people "half" Black with one Black parent that don't "look" Black. Look at Derek Jeter and his family. Jeter is part Black and looks Latino, as his sister does. He is probably I would take a wild guess if he tested 40%/45%. His father looks European influenced. Latino is not a specific "look." Many phenotypes in Latin America from Euro to African to Native. <br /><br />http://img.theepochtimes.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2014/07/15/93535425-676x450.jpg<br /><br />Your mtDNA is only a fraction of your DNA and does not represent someone's ancestry but a tiny fraction. It's one maternal ancestor, could be from 20 generations ago. If you click on the info on your mtDNA, it will tell you geographical location(s) of that halpogroup. <br /><br />Your autosomal (Ancestry Composition) shows recent ancestry, prime at a 3rd great grandparent but can go back to a 5th great grandparent. DNA is randomly shuffled. Can be lost about 4th/5th great grandparent. This gives you a ballpark of what is in your recent ancestry. <br /><br />If you are 19% SSA, your mother was at least 45%/50%-ish. A parent could have been Black or a multigenerational mulatto. Most New World Blacks have some sort of admixture. None are 100% SSA. <br /><br />Being Indian by enrollment or status is different than that of being biologically Amerindian. It appears your Native/Asian is 1.7? This would indicate your mother's mother, had more roots that are European/African.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10879752734869436551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10906133773306580082014-02-20T11:32:25.146+02:002014-02-20T11:32:25.146+02:00I recently joined 23andme and my results are quite...I recently joined 23andme and my results are quite surprising. The one thing that I cannot reconcile is the difference in ancestry assignment between the conservative and standard view. <br />Conservative view: (90% confidence Interval)<br />61% European (of that 59% unassigned) <br />1.6% subsaharan african <br />.9% east asian/Native American<br />36.5% UNASSIGNED <br />HMMM…That's a lot of DNA not assigned to a specific group.<br />Now for the Standard..this is where it get interesting:<br />70.8% European Consisting of : 16.9% northern(.7% French/German and 16.2 unassigned northern), 13.4% southern European (3.1 Italian, 1.3 Iberian, 8.9% nonspecific southern), 40.7% non specific European.<br />19.3% SubSaharan African consisting of: 14% West African, 5.3% non specific.<br />1.7% East Asian/Native American consisting of: .8% Native and 1% non specific asian.<br />1.1% Middle Eastern consisting of: .9% Middle Eastern, .2 north african.<br />7.1% UNassigned to any group.<br /><br />I know that the Confidence interval is 75% for standard and 90% for conservative. I took a stats class before and the one thing that definitely learned is that anything under a 90 confidence interval is not reliable. Yet, some people feel that the standard view is pretty accurate. <br /><br />What I do know about my ancestry for sure (I have the genealogy to prove it) is that my father's mother is 100% Southern Italian and his father is a mix of English and German ancestry. <br />My mother is from Quebec (French speaking) Canada, but her ethnic background is a mystery (although her birth records report Native American and Indian). That's why I took the DNA test, to confirm what her birth records report. <br /><br />I would like an opinion on whether or not I can conclude that one of her parents was probably black or at least mixed with black. Also, can I rule out that her mother was not Native (my mtdna is X2b4).<br /><br />If the conservative view is correct, my mother is probably mixed Black and White (French considering she was born in a French speaking Quebec area). So wouldn't I show more French? <br />Also, my mother does not look French or Black; she is often mistaken for Latina or Mexican.<br /><br />Ciao,<br />Ashley Gypsy Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669539770698885416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60870786156243331242013-12-11T05:37:37.636+02:002013-12-11T05:37:37.636+02:00Onur, I read through the thread above, and felt li...Onur, I read through the thread above, and felt like saying thank you for your excellent grasp of genetics as well as politics, sociology and nationalist ideologies in general. Not to mention commendable tact. :-)<br /><br />Best regards<br /><br />Yalchin<br />Yalchinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03686301381030286244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77724708232200320382013-10-07T21:28:58.923+03:002013-10-07T21:28:58.923+03:00I did the 23andme and received my results in less ...I did the 23andme and received my results in less than two weeks after processing. I am a product of 100% Greek parents, grandparents - going back many, many generations (according to our extensive family tree). Yet, 23andme lists me as Italian. 44.4% to be exact. I am a woman, so this is this figure solely reflects my maternal side. I, too, and unclear how they came to this conclusion and how they map regions like this. Anai Rhoadshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01369171034974032496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53581164421675859082013-08-20T15:27:27.421+03:002013-08-20T15:27:27.421+03:00I was surprised how much non-specific showed up in...I was surprised how much non-specific showed up in my three modes. For Conservative, Standard, and Speculative, respectively, it was 98.5%, 91.5%, and and 36.8%. My background is 3/4 British Isles (all 4 countries), and 1/4 German.<br /><br />Conservative:<br /><br />0.9% British & Irish<br /><0.1% Scandinavian<br />51.8% Non-spec. N. Euro.<br />46.7% Non-spec. Euro.<br />0.7% Unassigned<br /><br />Standard:<br /><br />6.8% British & Irish<br />1.0% Scandinavian<br />0.4% French & German<br />76.4% Non-spec. N. Euro.<br />15.1% Non-spec. Euro.<br />0.4% Unassigned<br /><br />Speculative:<br /><br />47.3% British & Irish<br />11.4% French & German<br />2.7% Scandinavian<br />33.6% Non-spec. N. Euro.<br />1.7% E. Euro.<br />1.1% Non-spec. S. Euro.<br />2.1% Non-spec. Euro.<br /><0.1% Sub-Saharan African<br />0.1% UnassignedLevitylabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05374812313257748146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72004367416875975912013-07-06T23:23:44.389+03:002013-07-06T23:23:44.389+03:00Anaxagoras,
Thank you for your kind remarks. I am...Anaxagoras,<br /><br />Thank you for your kind remarks. I am glad to see that there are so many things we can agree on when we look at all the available data. I admit that some of my statements to you were a bit harsh. Also I think I misjudged some of your views. I apologize for these. <br /><br />Did all of those 3 Troodos Cypriots get their autosomes tested? If so, I suggest you to send their genotype files to Dienekes for analysis in the Dodecad Project. Unless they are relatives, I guess he will admit all of them despite the closed status of submissions to the Dodecad Project, as they are all from a Greek population, i.e., Greek Cypriots.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62639496159395801632013-07-06T23:12:01.641+03:002013-07-06T23:12:01.641+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49408336303802007652013-07-06T13:54:14.080+03:002013-07-06T13:54:14.080+03:00Onur,
Thank for your much more constructive comme...Onur,<br /><br />Thank for your much more constructive comment this time. I agree that as the discussion was becoming somewhat too personal, it has to end at some point. <br /><br />In the end, I believe we agree on the majority of things. I went again through the Behar et al paper and indeed in the supplements it says that these individuals were Greek Cypriots. So apologies if I initially disputed that. There is also another paper by Haber et al (2013) which is using (from what I understand) the same sample of individuals. Of course I acknowledge that both of these articles are of high quality and that both show a higher west Asian than European admixture among this sample of Cypriots. What I had in mind and I kept questioning the representativeness of these 12 individuals, is that there is historical evidence of some clustering, within Cyprus, of people with a higher European admixture than the Cypriot average. Two of such regions are some villages in the Famagusta region (major port during Frankish rule) and some isolated villages up in the Troodos mountains. Initially, I was thinking that these were just urban (or maybe rural..) legends, but after testing 3 individuals from the Troodos region (one of them is me) all were found to be of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a-M458, which is extremely surprising! <br /><br />Anyway, overall, if we disregard the 23andme data, which I accept that are somewhat flawed, indeed the evidence so far points to a very strong Levantine admixture among Cypriots.Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48398461035239129712013-07-05T13:52:50.180+03:002013-07-05T13:52:50.180+03:00Anaxagoras,
The only relevancy of my ethnic ident...Anaxagoras,<br /><br />The only relevancy of my ethnic identity in this discussion is the fact that I am, quite naturally, more interested in knowing about the genetics of my ethnic group and its neighbors. I tried to end this discussion as soon as I felt that it began to heat up, and I have been trying to end this discussion since then. As I made it clear, the 12 Cypriots of the Behar et al. study are exclusively Greek Cypriots and from no other ethnic group. I have seen enough of their and other Greek Cypriots' genetic results to make reliable inferences about Greek Cypriots' genetic affiliations. I have never tried to impose you anything. You are free to believe whatever you wish. But that should never make you immune to criticism. Despite that, I have directed most of my criticism at 23andMe rather than you. <br /><br />I did not say you claimed a complete or almost complete replacement of the indigenous population of Cyprus by the Greek colonizers. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. <br /><br />I said the West Asian ancestry is larger than Southern European ancestry in modern-day Cypriots, but did not clarify how much larger. I also said that modern-day Cypriots have much more pre-Greek ancestry than Greek settler ancestry. Note that pre-Greek Cypriot does not mean exclusively West Asian, as pre-Greek Cypriots already must have had some level of Southern European minority genetic element, however smaller than that of post-Greek-colonization Cypriots. <br /><br />Lastly, when I mentioned pre-Greek Cypriots in the context of historical times I was referring just to their existence in Cyprus, not to their arrival there. Surely, in early historical times Greeks and Phoenicians had not arrived in Cyprus yet.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80529765981033153972013-07-05T03:05:11.561+03:002013-07-05T03:05:11.561+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57050736244632439582013-07-04T18:59:24.195+03:002013-07-04T18:59:24.195+03:00Do you actually read what you write?
Yes I do rea...<i>Do you actually read what you write?</i><br /><br />Yes I do read what I write. I wrote 'ancestor' instead of 'descendant' by mistake. Of course, being as ironic as you are, you have highlighted this and published it. Thanks! Much appreciated.. At least we agree on the fact that modern day Greeks are genetically linked to ancient Greeks and on the fact that ethnic identity has nothing to do with genetics. <br /><br /><i>Genetics of modern-day Cypriots strongly implies that they are largely descended from pre-Greek Cypriots. But I did not go that far as 10,000 years. I am writing about the historical times</i><br /><br />Indigenous Cypriots arrived in the island mainly during prehistoric times. The main extensive migrations during historic times were from Greeks, Phoenicians and Jews. Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44594344368776094412013-07-04T18:47:31.947+03:002013-07-04T18:47:31.947+03:00Onur,
It doesn't seem that your ethnic identi...Onur,<br /><br />It doesn't seem that your ethnic identity is irrelevant, otherwise you wouldn't bother spending a whole week trying to prove the ethnic identity of a nation, other than yours. You do stick to the facts, but only to the facts that are along the lines of your preconceptions.<br /><br />Thanks for disputing my knowledge. It is so kind of you. I do understand genetics and complex (not just simple) maths, because it is part of my job. I am a genetic epidemiologist. What about you? Does your advance training in statistics and genetics tell you that s sample of 10 from a nation comprising of 5 distinct ethnic groups (Greeks, Turks, Maronites, Armenians, Latins - the latter are the ancestors of Franks and Venetians) is representative of the whole population?? And to answer further your next ironic comment, yes I do know that autosomal analyses require smaller sample sizes but still 10 individuals are too few and cannot be representative. Even in the 8 23andme Greek Cypriot samples that I saw, South European ancestry ranges from 50% to 75%. Even if we accept that the ancestry composition of 23andme is completely useless in distinguishing south Europeans from west Asians, the fact that there is a considerable variation in the admixture composition of these 8 Greek Cypriots, proves that there is genetic variation among Cypriots. Unless you believe that 23andme's ancestry composition is entirely a random guess. You put your comments in line with Dienekes’. Obviously these have nothing in common, as he always gives polite and constructive comments in contrast to you who try to impose your opinion to the other person, usually by being ironic and arrogant. <br /><br />If you go back to my initial post you will see clearly that I was ASKING about the specific ancestry composition results and I never took them as a fact regarding the ancestry composition of my country. It is you who claim that you know FOR SURE that Cypriots are a west Asian nation with little European admixture. I never claimed that the Greeks have replaced the indigenous population of Cyprus as you suggested. On the contrary, I always believed that we are a mixture of west Asian and European ancestry. Our main disagreement that caused all this debate is that you are entirely certain, based on the existing data, that the west Asian ancestry is much larger than the European, while I prefer to wait a bit more for more evidence to accumulate in order to derive a conclusion.Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79070013659293822452013-07-04T03:29:13.853+03:002013-07-04T03:29:13.853+03:00I think Dienekes has given the adequate answer to ...I think Dienekes has given the adequate answer to Grandal, so I see no need to respond to him.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6876239432807961912013-07-04T03:24:11.578+03:002013-07-04T03:24:11.578+03:00I do not understand how claiming that modern day G...<i>I do not understand how claiming that modern day Greeks are in fact ancestors of ancient Greeks makes me a nationalist. If an Italian says that Italians are the ancestors of ancient Romans will you also call him a nationalist?</i><br /><br />Do you actually read what you write? What does it mean "modern Greeks are ancestors of ancient Greeks" and "modern Italians are ancestors of Romans"?! Did you mean "descendant" rather than "ancestor"? If so, read below.<br /><br /><i>You claim that modern day Cypriots are descendants of the indigenous population that lived in the island 10,000 years ago (which I agree at some extent)</i><br /><br />Genetics of modern-day Cypriots strongly implies that they are largely descended from pre-Greek Cypriots. But I did not go that far as 10,000 years. I am writing about the historical times. <br /><br /><i>but you find it extremely difficult to accept that modern day Greeks are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks, who lived there 2,500 years ago. If this is not anti-Greek nationalism from your site, I do not know what it is.</i><br /><br />Do not put words in my mouth. I have never claimed such a thing. Mainland Greeks probably have not genetically changed much since ancient times and Cypriots probably have not genetically changed much since ancient times either. It is you who claims that Cypriots genetically changed much during the Greek colonization.<br /><br /><i>And to finish with this, the fact that there is Greek admixture in Anatolia and Syria, does not make modern day Greeks less Greek. There is Roman admixture in England. Does this make the Italians less Roman??</i><br /><br />As I have made it clear, what I have been writing has nothing to do with Greekness, as, unlike you, I do not define Greekness based on blood. So you are no less Greek than a Mainland Greek irrespective of how much pre-Greek Cypriot blood you have.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3644507010711986622013-07-04T03:23:13.906+03:002013-07-04T03:23:13.906+03:00Thanks for sharing your ethnic identity. This make...<i>Thanks for sharing your ethnic identity. This makes things clearer (i.e. why you are so interested on determining the true genetic admixture of Cypriots).</i><br /><br />My ethnic identity is irrelevant as long as I stick to the facts, and that is what I have been doing so far.<br /><br /><i>For me the issue is closed. You believe that a sample of n=10 is enough to derive the genetic admixture of a nation of over 1 million inhabitants. I do not believe that, but I also do not have the time and energy to persuade you about the opposite. Just to say that your claim is like saying that an election poll of 10 individuals can give you a clear picture of the outcome of an election.</i><br /><br />You obviously do not understand genetics and simple maths. If you analyze more than 10 unrelated individuals from a homogeneous and relatively small population and all of them show very similar ADMIXTURE results and tightly cluster together in cluster analyses, then chances of those individuals being genetically unrepresentative of that population is extremely low. <br /><br /><i>I never said that R1a and R1b are frequent in Greece and Cyprus. In Cyprus especially these are quite rare as you rightly say.</i><br /><br />Then I misunderstood you. Sorry for that.<br /><br /><i>The point I was making is that when you take a small sample of people you are risking deriving biased conclusions (this is called sampling error). For example, in the 11 unrelated Greek Cypriot samples that I have access to, the prevalence of R1a is 27%. In the few Haplogroup studies done in Cyprus, using larger sample sizes, the prevalence is around 3%. Such misleading results can be derived also for admixture analysis using 10 or 12 individuals.</i><br /><br />Autosomal studies require much less sample sizes than haplogroup studies to be representative of populations.<br /><br /><i>Something else that I cannot convince you about is that you are 100% certain that Cypriots are primarily a West Asian population and that you consider 23andme’s analysis as completely useless. Fair enough. Time will show.</i><br /><br />As Dienekes and I have been telling you, 23andMe is very inadequate in distinguishing between "South Europeanness" and "West Asianness" and estimating their levels. But you are free to believe whatever you wish, of course.<br /><br /><i> I was just saying that 8 out of 8 Greek Cypriot samples in 23andme turn out to have a larger Southern European ancestry than West Asian. Obviously, this fact (not my opinion) annoyed you so much that you are willing to write day after day pages and pages about how much West Asian and how little European the Cypriots are.</i><br /><br />If you made a clarification by saying "according to 23andMe" rather than treating it as a fact, I would not need to debate with you so long. I did not say anything different from Dienekes regarding the shortcomings of 23andMe.<br /><br /><i>If more tests are done and we turn out to be more West Asian than European I have absolutely no problem accepting it, because I am not a nationalist as you accuse me.</i><br /><br />Nationalism is not a defect or crime. I have some nationalist friends. They are not so bad people. Nationalism becomes really a problem when it begins to distort one's sense of reality. Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48606297890093977722013-07-03T20:57:11.008+03:002013-07-03T20:57:11.008+03:0023andme’s Ancestry Composition may be somewhat pro...<i>23andme’s Ancestry Composition may be somewhat problematic in determining sub-regional admixture, but it can definitely distinguish European from non-European (eg. West Asian) ancestry!</i><br /><br />I haven't seen recent reports on this, but it did <i>not</i> distinguish these correctly at the time I wrote this post.<br /><br />In general, I would strongly advise against resolving issues of "European-ness" or "Asian-ness" using 23andMe's ancestry composition.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86332878666681292622013-07-03T20:12:37.190+03:002013-07-03T20:12:37.190+03:00Sorry to pop in, but this Onur-Anaxagoras discussi...Sorry to pop in, but this Onur-Anaxagoras discussion is getting a bit out of hand..<br /><br />This post is dedicated to discussing 23andme’s ancestry data and not on determining the ancestry composition of a specific nation. <br /><br />@Onur<br />23andme’s Ancestry Composition may be somewhat problematic in determining sub-regional admixture, but it can definitely distinguish European from non-European (eg. West Asian) ancestry! It is somewhat obscured to me why you are being so stubborn trying to convince another person about his genetic identity. If he believes that he and his compatriots are more European than Asian, then let it be. The way I see it, as an outsider, is like trying to persuade a Sicilian Italian that genetically he is more indigenous Sicilian than Italian. Even if this is true, you have to acknowledge and respect that ethnic identity is a sensitive issue to many people and insisting in proving your point on someone else’s genetic identity could be offending to some and will definitely not lead anywhere. <br /><br />@Anaxagoras<br />From my experience, 23andme’s subregional admixture is indeed somewhat problematic so do not rely too much on it. If you have access to 11 FTDNA accounts as you say, try to see how many of those Cypriots have Y-DNA and/or mt-DNA matches with mainland Greeks. Even a -1 or -2 marker match can give an indication of very ancient common ancestry. This may help you in your quest for determining the genetic link between mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots. <br />Grandalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12361652100479508939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32733280276429171682013-07-03T14:56:08.232+03:002013-07-03T14:56:08.232+03:00Something else that I cannot convince you about is...Something else that I cannot convince you about is that you are 100% certain that Cypriots are primarily a West Asian population and that you consider 23andme’s analysis as completely useless. Fair enough. Time will show. I personally will be working on clarifying the admixture composition of Greek Cypriots and as I said before, I will be posting the results on this blog. I do not claim that Greek Cypriots are more South European than West Asian. I was just saying that 8 out of 8 Greek Cypriot samples in 23andme turn out to have a larger Southern European ancestry than West Asian. Obviously, this fact (not my opinion) annoyed you so much that you are willing to write day after day pages and pages about how much West Asian and how little European the Cypriots are. If more tests are done and we turn out to be more West Asian than European I have absolutely no problem accepting it, because I am not a nationalist as you accuse me. I do not understand how claiming that modern day Greeks are in fact ancestors of ancient Greeks makes me a nationalist. If an Italian says that Italians are the ancestors of ancient Romans will you also call him a nationalist? You claim that modern day Cypriots are descendants of the indigenous population that lived in the island 10,000 years ago (which I agree at some extent), but you find it extremely difficult to accept that modern day Greeks are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks, who lived there 2,500 years ago. If this is not anti-Greek nationalism from your site, I do not know what it is. And to finish with this, the fact that there is Greek admixture in Anatolia and Syria, does not make modern day Greeks less Greek. There is Roman admixture in England. Does this make the Italians less Roman??Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12215661237770500252013-07-03T14:53:29.105+03:002013-07-03T14:53:29.105+03:00Onur,
Thanks for sharing your ethnic identity. Th...Onur,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your ethnic identity. This makes things clearer (i.e. why you are so interested on determining the true genetic admixture of Cypriots).<br /><br />For me the issue is closed. You believe that a sample of n=10 is enough to derive the genetic admixture of a nation of over 1 million inhabitants. I do not believe that, but I also do not have the time and energy to persuade you about the opposite. Just to say that your claim is like saying that an election poll of 10 individuals can give you a clear picture of the outcome of an election.<br /><br />I never said that R1a and R1b are frequent in Greece and Cyprus. In Cyprus especially these are quite rare as you rightly say. The point I was making is that when you take a small sample of people you are risking deriving biased conclusions (this is called sampling error). For example, in the 11 unrelated Greek Cypriot samples that I have access to, the prevalence of R1a is 27%. In the few Haplogroup studies done in Cyprus, using larger sample sizes, the prevalence is around 3%. Such misleading results can be derived also for admixture analysis using 10 or 12 individuals.Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31884962585672586332013-07-02T16:57:49.362+03:002013-07-02T16:57:49.362+03:00Lastly, as for my ethnic identity, I am a Turk fro...Lastly, as for my ethnic identity, I am a Turk from Turkey (Anatolian Turk on the paternal side and Balkan Turk on the maternal side) and have no familial connection to Cyprus. I am making this explanation just to satisfy your curiosity, as I do not allow my ethnic identity to influence my views.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31302634649145952602013-07-02T16:43:54.729+03:002013-07-02T16:43:54.729+03:00Anaxagoras,
I am speaking based on hard data. You...Anaxagoras,<br /><br />I am speaking based on hard data. You, on the other hand, are making speculations about the haplogroup composition of historical peoples without recouse to any solid evidence and making inferences about peoples' autosomal genetics solely based on "family lore". Besides, neither modern-day Greeks nor Greek Cypriots are hign in R1a or R1b, this is especially true for Greek Cypriots, whose frquency of the totality of the Y-DNA R haplogroups does not even exceed 15% (see Eupedia).<br /><br />Autosomal analyses does not require high sample sizes, and most of the time a sample size of 10 is enough to give detailed information about the autosomal genetic variation of a population, especially of small and genetically homogeneous populations such as Cypriots (the Greek Cypriot sample of the Behar et al. paper consists of 12 individuals, which is more than enough for Greek Cypriots). The fact that all the Behar Greek Cypriot individuals, the Dodecad Greek Cypriot individual and all the Dodecad Turkish Cypriot individuals have all very similar ADMIXTURE results and all cluster together to the exclusion of the non-Cypriot populations in cluster analyses proves conclusively that all those Cypriot samples (whether Greek or Turkish) are representative of Greek and Turkish Cypriots (this is especially true for Greek Cypriots since there are more publically available individuals for genetic analysis for Greek Cypriots than those for Turkish Cypriots). <br /><br />I did not say Turkish Cypriots are exclusively descended from the few hundred remaining households. It should have been clear by now that what I am saying is that the bulk of the ancestry of Turkish Cypriots comes from Greek Cypriot converts to Islam. As I have been demonstrating in my posts, genetics and history confirm this. The Dodecad Turkish Cypriots have very small levels of Mongoloid genetic components and are very similar to the Greek Cypriots in all other genetic components (the relatively elevated average Negroid component level of the Dodecad Turkish Cypriot sample is all because of a single Dodecad Turkish Cypriot individual who has recent Sub-Saharan ancestry). And, as I said many times, the Greek and Turkish Cypriots cluster together to the exclusion of the non-Cypriot populations in cluster analyses. So we can quite confidently say that the genetically closest population to Greek Cypriots are Turkish Cypriots and vice versa. <br /><br />Your view of Greekness and the Greek history is nationalist, biased and romantic rather than factual, objective and rational. You do not even mention the fact that most of Asia Minor was eventually Grecified (it took the early Middle Ages for its many regions). So when the Turkmens came, most of the population of Asia Minor was Greek (the rest being mainly Armenian). I am not even mentioning the historically vibrant Greek communities of Syria. I already explained to you that Cyprus was most probably more genetically impacted from Greek colonization than most of Asia Minor was (genetics seems to confirm this). But don't expect me to accept your unfounded claim that Cypriots are more Southern European in origin than West Asian or more Greek settler in origin than pre-Greek Cypriot in origin. As Dienekes and I explained, 23andMe is weak when it comes to the populations of West Asia and environs. <br /><br />I have said enough. If you have no new information to add, then it is best to not continue this discussion.<br /> Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86090038126771942082013-07-02T02:55:26.733+03:002013-07-02T02:55:26.733+03:00Now going to the Turkish Cypriots. Do you really c...Now going to the Turkish Cypriots. Do you really claim that the 120,000 or so Turkish Cypriots (I am using the 1974 estimate before the Turkish invasion of the island) are descendents from a few hundreds?? This is mathematically and biologically implausible. Also, during the Ottoman rule of Cyprus there has been an unprecedented architectural, linguistic and generally cultural identity shift in the island. For example, almost all major Christian churches were turned into Mosques. Was all of that fuss just to please a few hundred individuals? Indeed many 16th century settlers returned back to Turkey, but many more arrived after that. In addition, many western European travelers who visited Cyprus throughout the Ottoman rule were speaking of a large Greek community and an almost as large Turkish community. I do not think that this was just their imagination. I know the history of Cyprus from inside out and of course I know that genetically Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots are very similar, mainly for 2 reasons: (1) indigenous Cypriots and Anatolians are genetically quite similar, (2) some Greek Cypriots converted to Islam due to the reduced taxation imposed on Muslims in comparison to the Christians and these people gradually assimilated to the Turkish Cypriot community. On the other hand, marriage between individuals from the 2 communities was extremely rare due to strict religious barriers. In addition, there are Turkish Cypriots that have ancestors from deep inside Eastern Turkey, some even from Turkmenistan (settlers were broad from there as well). I have Turkish Cypriot friends who have ancestry from such regions. Clearly, these individuals would not cluster with Greek Cypriots, as they would have a much higher Central Asian admixture. The point again here is that with such small sample sizes, you risk recruiting by chance individuals from the 2 communities who may be extremely related or on the other hand completely unrelated. Therefore, you cannot derive any sound conclusions unless you have larger sample sizes. <br /><br />Finally, It is interesting what you say about the ‘DNA tribes’ ancestry analysis. I was reading some time ago that it was quite flawed, but maybe they have improved it since then. Maybe I should give it a go..Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70857508419207818562013-07-02T02:50:07.012+03:002013-07-02T02:50:07.012+03:00Regarding the 'Behar Cypriots', what needs...Regarding the 'Behar Cypriots', what needs to be clarified here is that you speak of ‘Behar Cypriots’ as if they are a specific ethnic group (i.e. Behar..). Maybe I misunderstood it like that initially. So what you are saying is that the ‘Behar Cypriots’ are just the Cypriots included in the study by Behar et al. Ok… If you have contacted the author and these participants are all Greek Cypriots, I cannot argue about that. The main issue here though is that we are talking about very small sample sizes. Even the n=12 sample in DODECAD is extremely small to derive any valid conclusions about the genetic admixture of such a genetically heterogenous population, as the Cypriots. For example, based on the very few studies that were done among Cypriots looking at Y-haplogroup composition, the prevalence of haplogroup R1a was found to be around 3%. From the results that I saw from 11 Greek Cypriots who have tested their Y-haplogroup with FTDNA, 3 of 11 were haplogroup R1a (including me). This indicates how a small sample can give rise to erroneous/biased estimates. The point here is that unless we have a big study with a representative sample from all over Cyprus, we cannot conclude the genetic admixture of this population for sure. So instead of making claims that Greek Cypriots are more West Asian than European maybe you could help in determining this for sure? You seem so passionate about Cypriot genetics that I am starting to think that you are as well a Cypriot. Unless you are so keen to demonstrate that a population has this and that admixture for other populations and not just the Cypriots. As I told you, I have no problem accepting that Greek Cypriots are more West Asian than they are European, but I need to see some hard evidence (large representative samples). All I was saying in my initial post was that from 8 tested Greek Cypriot samples in 23andme, all had a larger European admixture than West Asian. If you believe that these are spurious results generated by the flaws of 23andme, then I cannot convince you about the opposite. However, in contrast to you, I do not go round announcing that Cypriots are more European than West Asian or whatever. What I do is try to discuss it with people who are really into this field (like Dienekes) and maybe try to have some more people tested to clarify the situation.Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72407389853756084062013-07-02T02:36:19.343+03:002013-07-02T02:36:19.343+03:00The propaganda I was referring to started during t...The propaganda I was referring to started during the Ottoman occupation of Cyprus and continued during the British occupation and the aim was to persuade the Greek Cypriots that they are not really Greeks so they should stop demanding unification with mainland Greece as the Cretans and all other islanders did. I really do not believe that you are a part of this and I can accept that you have a natural interest in determining the genetic admixture of Greek Cypriots, however initially your arguments sounded like that. Regarding ‘Greekness’, what do you mean exactly by saying ‘the mainland Greeks are not the sole representatives of Greekness’?? Again, you are along the lines of another propaganda this time trying to prove that modern day Greeks have little in common, genetically, with ancient Greeks. Also, I do not understand your argument that the ‘Greek identity spread to such a large territory that it became impossible to speak of a Greek racial type’? There were Empires that spread much much more than the Greeks (Persians, Romans, Mongols, Ottomans, British, etc.). The Greeks always lived where modern day Greece is, as well as in the shores of Asia Minor, southern parts of Italy (Magna Grecia) and in the shores of the Black sea (hence a substantial Greek admixture in those populations). This was the historical homeland of the Greeks. I do not see a great spread there. The only great spread was achieved with the expedition of Alexander the Great, which lasted only for a few decades before it collapsed and then things returned back to ‘normal’ (i.e. Greeks concentrated in the limited geographical region I mentioned above, as well as north Egypt and Cyprus). The genetic identity of ancient Greeks is pretty much known. The indigenous population was most likely mainly of Y-haplogroup J2b, EV-13, G2a and probably some I and T. The first settlers, who actually initiated today’s Greek civilization and in fact the concept of the ‘Greek’ ethnic identity, where the Mycenaeans, who based on archaeological and linguistic evidence came from the Ukrainian steppes (ca. 1600 BC) and were most likely primarily R1a people. The next great migration into the area of modern day Greece was from the Dorians who again based on archaeological and linguistic evidence came from northern Europe (somewhat western this time) and were most likely primarily R1b people. After the Dorian invasion and especially after the era of Alexander the Great, when the Greek tribes united for the first time, we have the formation of the Greek ethnic identity (both cultural and genetic). If you notice, the paternal haplogroup composition of ancient Greeks I am describing above is remarkably similar to the haplogroup composition of modern day Greeks. And you know why? Because there was no major spread of Greeks as you suggest. Instead, there was always a nation living in the geographical area of Greece through the centuries with very limited recent admixture from outside (the major one being that of the Slavs). Greeks are as heterogenous genetically as any other European nation (if we exclude maybe the Iberians and the British). <br />Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59063604014267729152013-07-02T01:19:44.269+03:002013-07-02T01:19:44.269+03:00To summarize, according to genetic analyses, Greek...To summarize, according to genetic analyses, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots are genetically almost indistinguishable from each other; the two populations have almost the same results in ADMIXTURE analyses and cluster together to the exclusion of non-Cypriots in cluster analyses. So we can quite confidently talk of a Cypriot genetic cluster that is exclusive to Greek and Turkish Cypriots. What are the characteristics of this genetic cluster, i.e., Cypriots? They are primarily genetically a West Asian population (more from the northern West Asian variety than from the southern West Asian variety) but have a Southern European minority genetic element that is elevated compared to the West Asian standards, which is a strong sign of some elevated level of mainland Greek ancestry. Nonetheless, the first populations Cypriots genetically cluster with are all West Asian populations and the populations most similar to them in ADMIXTURE analyses are all, again, West Asian populations, not to mention the fact that the closest populations to them Fst-wise are all West Asian populations. But certainly not all West Asian populations are genetically closer to Cypriots than European populations are, because West Asia has a strong north-south dichotomy (the north strongly leans towards Europe) and thus is not a genetically unified region. So if a genetic analysis has a single West Asian reference population group (that is what we see in 23andMe), it is garbage, at least for genetically primarily West Asian populations such as Cypriots.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.com