tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post4018692175094340316..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Sardinian R-M269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival into Europe (or does it?)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39584106395698289232010-05-06T23:35:14.610+03:002010-05-06T23:35:14.610+03:00We absolutely have to stop talking about this or w...<i>We absolutely have to stop talking about this or we are both going to be excommunicated.</i><br /><br />Agreed. But you can always continue this discussion through the email address I provided. One last thing I will add before finishing this discussion (at least in this blog) is that for many things that goes back to pre-modern times it is extremely blurry what is Turkish or not (many historians will admit to that). Turks and Greeks are still fervently debating over things like the origin of baklava to no avail. I think it is much more appropriate to focus on more concrete facts in this respect.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77956609725192369722010-05-06T22:47:37.370+03:002010-05-06T22:47:37.370+03:00onur,
I read your posts before they were deleted....onur,<br /><br />I read your posts before they were deleted. I also checked wiki (if you can take that as a source). The dance you are refering to is indeed not a belly dance. However, if wiki is to be believed, the dance *is* of Turkish origin.<br /><br />This only underlines my original point that traditional Greek and Turkish dances are easily distinguishable(based on costume, many points of style, music and musical intruments.) There are even quite observable regional differences within each country.<br /><br />We absolutely have to stop talking about this or we are both going to be excommunicated.<br /><br />The technical discussion of uncertainly in time estimates of genetic splits, while not so obviously enticing, perhaps offers a greater chance of leading to a definitive answer regarding the relatedness of Europeans and SW Asians.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86235556018725254652010-05-06T22:41:46.368+03:002010-05-06T22:41:46.368+03:00Marnie there are diverse opinions on how good is t...Marnie there are diverse opinions on how good is the MC and how should it be used and I tried to gather some of the most important recent papers in <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/12/ongoing-debate-on-molecular-clock-in.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>. <br /><br />However, in the same search I did to find this link above, I stumbled with a long spate of posts all saying that the MC must be slower than usually claimed: <br /><br />- <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/11/molecular-clock-two-to-six-times-slower.html" rel="nofollow">Molecular clock two to six times slower than thought</a>.<br />- <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/01/molcular-clock-speculation-obscuring.html" rel="nofollow">Molecular clock must be slower for primates to have diverged when Africa and America were still together</a>.<br />- <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/03/mutation-rate-is-less-than-half.html" rel="nofollow">Mutation rate is less than half</a>.<br />- <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2008/04/new-paper-ofn-chimpanzee-and-bonobo.html" rel="nofollow">Human-chimp divergence should be at least 8 million years old</a> (not anywhere from 7 to 5 million as is usually claimed, and this is a crucial reference for human MC guesstimates).<br /><br />I have no faith in the MC as it is now: it must be even slower than the evolutionary rate most probably. But this is what we have.<br /><br />Anyhow, mtDNA is a general reference and a more clear field, because you often have complete sequences to work with (due to the much smaller size of the DNA string). If you can't get things straight in the mtDNA, much less in the Y-DNA. <br /><br />I don't think that there's such a paper on Y-DNA specifically anyhow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90747798989027478582010-05-06T22:30:52.320+03:002010-05-06T22:30:52.320+03:00Marnie, Dienekes deleted my last two posts, which ...Marnie, Dienekes deleted my last two posts, which were replies to your statements in square brackets in your previous post. If you haven't been able to read them or have forgotten or missed some parts, please send me an email at gedoloth@yahoo.com so that I can send you my deleted posts (including the one you already replied).Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73129801274568803682010-05-06T22:13:57.709+03:002010-05-06T22:13:57.709+03:00Maju,
Thanks for the Henn 2009 "Characterizi...Maju,<br /><br />Thanks for the Henn 2009 "Characterizing the Time Dependency of Human Mitochondrial DNA Mutation Rate Estimates" reference.<br /><br />I'm still sorting through it. It's one of those "wow" papers, IMHO.<br /><br />The paper mentions yDNA, but is focused primarily on mtDNA.<br /><br />Is there a similar comprehensive paper on yDNA?<br /><br />If not, is there such a paper in the works?<br /><br />Also, early in this thread, there was a discussion about population size. I haven't followed all of the discussion in this thread. Pardon me. Were any references mentioned on work to estimate population size in Eurasia in the last 30,000 years?<br /><br />Thank you.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77826231905245132762010-05-06T21:51:25.970+03:002010-05-06T21:51:25.970+03:00What part of the "conversation on dancing end...What part of the "conversation on dancing ends here" don't you understand?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67098390365357304282010-05-06T20:00:44.051+03:002010-05-06T20:00:44.051+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12676455257732669412010-05-06T19:41:10.996+03:002010-05-06T19:41:10.996+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38140425254836299602010-05-06T19:03:43.901+03:002010-05-06T19:03:43.901+03:00"I would really like to see a graphical depic..."I would really like to see a graphical depiction of the uncertainty in estimating the age of the split".<br /><br />I think I have already mentioned it but anyhow:<br /><br /><a href="http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/1/217" rel="nofollow">Henn 2009</a>. Search for fig. 2. <br /><br />It's not about R1b specifically but about the accurate usage of "pedigree" and "evolutionary" rates in MC age estimations. The pedigree rates fails miserably at ages before 5000 years ago (3000 BCE). However there is an area of uncertainty between that date and c. 15,000 years ago. Earlier the evolutionary rate is the only one that provides consistent answers, it seems. <br /><br />In this case, always within the theoretical and undemonstrated MC hypothesis, the evolutionary rate is providing answers that match the requirements, instead the pedigree rate always falls outside of its narrow time allowance. <br /><br />I'm no fan of the MC hypothesis as such, which obviously needs a lot of refining (to say the least), but within that context this is as good as it gets.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51479642758154426672010-05-06T18:19:14.659+03:002010-05-06T18:19:14.659+03:00On the original topic of this thread, the uncertai...On the original topic of this thread, the uncertainty of estimating the age the split between east and west R-M269, I would like to see more discussion.<br /><br />I would really like to see a graphical depiction of the uncertainty in estimating the age of the split.<br /><br />It would be instructive to see the uncertainty discussed from different angles: genetic, linguistic and archeological.<br /><br />Without a concise comparison of these, I'll satisfy myself with looking at the ultimate effect of the split: culture. <br /><br />[Onur, the origin of belly dancing is not Greek. Amongst my Iranian friends, it is also not considered to be a traditional Iranian dance, (although it is a very fun dance.)<br /><br />It does appear to be a traditional dance of Egypt and Lebanon, to name a few.]Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16031595983330728062010-05-06T17:21:59.030+03:002010-05-06T17:21:59.030+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77599592006331839392010-05-06T13:06:17.726+03:002010-05-06T13:06:17.726+03:00The conversation on dancing ends here, and please ...The conversation on dancing ends here, and please don't litter the blog with long discussions on unrelated topics. A casual observation that is off-topic is fine, but a multi-post thread on Anatoian dancing in a post about European R-M269 is a no-no.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18545328128127840512010-05-06T07:11:24.362+03:002010-05-06T07:11:24.362+03:00Totally OT, but there's only so much Megalithi...Totally OT, but there's only so much Megalithism that I can handle. <br /><br />Couldn't help it:<br /><br />Best Bluegrass Clog Dancing Video Ever Made<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2j8f7H2WY&feature=pyv&ad=4904988462&kw=dance&gclid=CPPlsorJvKECFQdkgwodqw-s9w<br /><br />Flat Footing:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9rJ2na9Umg&feature=related<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIHL_Dzf1xo&feature=related<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aphScE2oZts&feature=relatedMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47797114411888586272010-05-06T06:42:31.731+03:002010-05-06T06:42:31.731+03:00Sorry to all for this off topic information about ...Sorry to all for this off topic information about Turkish and Greek dances.<br /><br />Onur,<br /><br />I think there are significant stylistic differences between traditional Turkish and Greek dances. Some dances, such as the Horon, do seem to be danced traditionally in both countries, but even then, the styles are divergent. See links to a Cretan and Turkish Horon dances, below. <br /><br />Zeybek Dance - Turkey<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhR5fFIas5M<br />From the Aegean Region of Turkey. This dance is somewhat similar to dances I've seen danced in regions of Northern Greece, such as Florina. However, although it is customary for the lead dancer to separate from the line and improvise, it is not customery for all the Greek dancers to dance separately as in this Turkish dance.<br /><br />Some Greek Cypriot dances are danced as singles.<br /><br />Horon dances ---------------------<br /><br />Cretan Horon dance<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt8HXgcwtvE<br /><br />Turkish Horon dance<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSJY84RkTGU&feature=related<br /><br />Belly dances --------------------<br /><br />Although the chiftetelli, karshilama and halay may occasionally be danced in Greece, they are not considered to be traditionally Greek.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81011655087064181662010-05-06T06:40:54.926+03:002010-05-06T06:40:54.926+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1654864110304994262010-05-06T06:40:54.927+03:002010-05-06T06:40:54.927+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22938871281155353612010-05-06T04:57:12.515+03:002010-05-06T04:57:12.515+03:00Even with Turkish and Greek dances, while there ar...<i>Even with Turkish and Greek dances, while there are some similarities, there are also quite significant differences.</i><br /><br />Of all the traditional (by traditional I mean the ones going back to pre-modern times) Turkish dance styles, as far as I know only bar and lezginka do not exist among the Greeks. The rest (zeybek, hora, horon, chiftetelli, karshilama and halay) are all traditionally performed also by the Greeks. The reason why bar (I am not actually so sure if it really doesn't exist among the Greeks) and lezginka do not exist among the Greeks is that they exist in Turkey almost exclusively in the ancient Armenian and Georgian territories; this also explains their existence among the Georgians, Armenians and Azeris (btw, halay and horon too are traditionally performed by them). So, none of the traditional Turkish dance styles are exclusively Turkish. <br /><br />Here is a map showing the traditionally main traditional dance styles of the provinces of Turkey:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Verbreitungskarte_der_t%C3%BCrkischen_Volkst%C3%A4nze.png<br /><br />But, of course, for the common Turkish-Greek traditional dance styles (I mentioned all of them above) there may be significant differences between their Turkish and Greek percentage distributions (there may also be some stylistic differences), largely due to the difference of place of origin for the majority of the Greeks and Turks (south Balkans for the majority of the Greeks, Anatolia for the majority of the Turks).Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46038424893092445322010-05-06T04:05:59.340+03:002010-05-06T04:05:59.340+03:00"The megalithic culture is not present after ..."The megalithic culture is not present after Bronze Age collapse (1200 BCE) and the data are not sufficiently detailed to distinguish between a demise of the megalithic culture at the time of the demise of the Minoan civilization to the IE speaking Myceneans (ca. 1400 BCE) and Bronze Age Collapse. Why would Bronze Age or Minoan collapse impact it if it was not connected".<br /><br />It became connected within the expanding Mycenaean (Greek) civilization. As I just said, since c. 1350 BCE El Argar shows very clear signs of Hellenization and we know that in the Bronze Age, the most strategic material was tin, found in aboundance only in NW Iberia and SW Britain. Greeks hence must have realized how important was for their militaristic society to gain control or at least secure access to such strategic resources, otherwise very scarce.<br /><br />The story is narrated, always from a Greek viewpoint, and quite distorted by the pass of time, in several legends: two of Herakles' Jobs and Plato's narration of Atlantis. At least that's my opinion. <br /><br />The fact that <a href="http://www.dainst.org/index.php?id=595" rel="nofollow">the collapse of the civilization of Zambujal (VNSP) is coincident with the silting of the canal</a> joining it to the Ocean, running by the exact distance described by Plato, suggests me that a tsunami caused the destruction of Zambujal (just as another one destroyed nearby Lisbon in 1775) and that, being already in decline, it never fully recovered, becoming then a non-urban society (externally burnished pottery culture) until the Celtic invasion some 500 years later, with Tartessos probably taking its role for some centuries, until Phoenicians destroyed it. <br /><br />"Minoans used stone crypt burial and had fertility cultures with continuity between, for example, the Megalithic culture, the Minoans and Göbekli Tepe.Marija Gimbutas wrote the book making that suggestion".<br /><br />Maybe. But they may just reflect an older shared (Neolithic) background. However it's true that Cycladic (not Minoan) figurines and Los Millares idols have some general affinity, particularly by depicting the head of "the goddess" as an inverted triangle - nothing else. Not enought to establish cultural identity but suggestive of some contact possibly. <br /><br />"Early developments of the megalithic culture it towards the North end of the range (British Isles, Brittany, greater Denmark). One could have a sequence of Near Eastern farming arriving via a coastal route in the Atlantic area, followed by megalithic religious/archeological innovation in the North by the people most reliant on the sea, followed by back migration of a maritime orientation to the Minoans whose palace culture may have been a locally influenced refinement".<br /><br />I don't think you can seriously consider a N->S migration in those times. Also, there's no archaeological backing for such ideas. The Mega-Megalithic style so typical of Britain has its roots in Armorica (Brittany, West France) and is exceptional, not the norm. The norm is collective burial in dolmens, with or without gallery. It is the humble dolmen what defines Megalithism as a unit, not the rarer colossal monuments. There are also many cultures, particularly in the Mediterranean, that practiced collective burial in other ways, typically in caves. They are not normally considered Megalithic but conceptually they are pretty close.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3145261164841340822010-05-06T04:05:49.297+03:002010-05-06T04:05:49.297+03:00"... megaliths were part of a pre-IE culture&..."... megaliths were part of a pre-IE culture".<br /><br />I very much agree with this. In fact Dolmenic Megalithism in Asia (derived from the one of Europe somewhat mysteriously) also appears outside of the Indoeuropean expansion area all the time: Caucasian peoples, Afroasiatics, Dravidians and even Koreans adopted it at different times but not ever a Indoeuropean people, whose extremely individualist and competitive culture of god-blessed war heroes, does not seem to fit with the "collectivist" (clannic?) monument these dolmens are. <br /><br />"The Minoans were a pre-IE culture that is well known for its maritime trade; it reached at least as far as Mediterranean Spain as indicated by Minoan objects found there, hence, it is very likely that the Minoan trade network also reached as far as Sardinia, at a time when megaliths had been erected in Sardinia".<br /><br />Minoans were pre-IE, yes. But they probably were a different pre-IE stock than West Europeans. Their language was probably different, their genetics are mostly different as well. <br /><br />Eastern Mediterranean (not necessarily Minoan) items (glass beads) have been found in Eastern Iberia only in very specific occasions (two or so). There was some trade probably but nothing compared with the much better documented trade with Northern Europe (amber) and Northern Africa (ivory, ostrich egg). The Megalithic trade routes were Atlantic and West Mediterranean almost exclusively. Where East Mediterranean items have been found are areas essentially out of the Megalithic area. <br /><br />However the tholos tomb should have arrived to Iberia (c. 3000 BCE, at the very beginning of Minoan civilization in the best case) from that area. Cyprus is a good candidate but there's a lapse of many centuries between Cypriot tholoi (used as homes) and Iberian tholoi (used as tombs). <br /><br />The tholos again is marginal in the context of Iberian Megalithism and restricted to some areas of the south, particularly Almería. However other neo-megalithic tomb styles (artificial caves) may also have Oriental origins (??).<br /><br />A more clear case can be made for the Orientalization of parts of Iberia at a later date, already deep in the Bronze Age, when El Argar civilization adopts Mycenaean burial practices (pithos). Guess it can be argued that "Minoan" (sensu latissimo) traders paved the way for Greek adventurers but even at this late stage, there is still a duality in Iberia between the Mediterranean civilization of El Argar (non-megalithic, hellenizing, with bronze) and the Atlantic civilization of Zambujal, still with Megalithism and some Bell Beaker up to its end c. 1200 BCE. <br /><br />(cont.)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54415737351197033032010-05-06T04:05:11.208+03:002010-05-06T04:05:11.208+03:00"The appearance of megalithic culture is clos..."The appearance of megalithic culture is close in time to the appearance of the Near Eastern/European package of crops and domesticated animals"...<br /><br />Only in some cases. The most clear one is SW Iberia, which is also the oldest one by far, but there are two centuries or so of hiatus and it seems a very local development, not any import. There's not any known Cretan civilization so far back in time (we're talking here of the 5th millennium BCE). <br /><br />"Megalithic is also largely <b>exclusive</b> of the area where the Linear Pottery migration of farming and herding is working its way up the Danube"...<br /><br />Do you mean "excluding"? Because otherwise I make no sense of this sentence. Only a handful of West Danubian groups adopted Dolmenic Megalithism and they did so in the late stages of their history. <br /><br />"The R1b/R1a divide coincides neatly with the areas where the megalithic culture was present and the area where the Linear Pottery/Funnelbeaker culture is found".<br /><br />I concede for the Dolmenic Megalithism area but not for Danubian. Poland or Czechia for instance were intensely Danubian but have low levels of R1b. I see absolutely no parallel between Danubian culture and R1b. <br /><br />"Men with Y-DNA haplotypes immediately prior to the R1a/R1b divide are common in the Red Sea area".<br /><br />Sounds interesting. Do you have a source?<br /><br />"If R1b had its origins in Central Europe, you would expect a mix of R1a and R1b there".<br /><br />R1b had its origins in West Asia, R1 probably in South Asia. The R1b subset that might have got its origins in Central Europe would be R1b1b2a1 and only that sublineage (it is the vast majority of R1b by numbers but it's not all R1b, not at all). <br /><br />You make a good point on why there seems to be a sharp divide between R1b-dominated and R1a-dominated areas and my humble opinion is that R1b never extended (in meaningful numbers) to places under the ice sheet like Poland, except in the westernmost areas: Scandinavia and specially Britain and Ireland. In addition, these NE areas had very low population density until historical times (only in the Middle Ages technological advances able to exploit properly the deep northern soils became available) what made male-mediated sweeps more likely, as probably happened after the Indoeuropean invasions.<br /><br />The coincidence in the European space of R1b and R1a is probably nothing but a coincidence, as they seem to stem from South Asia (at R1 and R1a levels). <br /><br />Regardless, a divide between West and East Europe is already evident in the Paleolithic archaeological record early on and reinforced in the late UP. However I suspect that original Eastern European Y-DNA clade was I, together or not with R1a. <br /><br />"Ancient DNA overwhelmingly supports demic replacement as the norm rather than exception in the initial expansion of farming and herding in Europe".<br /><br />Actually not so clear. The modern apportions of mtDNA only begin to be seen in Central Europe by the late Bronze Age, while in SW Europe Paleolithic continuity is very evident. So aDNA (and sure: we need more and better quality of this stuff) if anything would suggest a SW->Central Europe flow with Urnfields, what I think it's out of the question.<br /><br />The data <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/10/european-ancient-mtdna-in-sequential.html" rel="nofollow">shows</a>: <br /><br />1. North Germany: non-modern mtDNA pools in a Kurgan (CW) site (and previous Neolithic sites) and then a totally modern mtDNA pool in a Urnfields site just a few kilometers away (but 1000 years later). <br /><br />2. Iberia: more or less modern mtDNA pools, high in H, for all the time since Epipaleolithic (full Paleolithic if we consider nearby Taforalt in Morocco). <br /><br />So the only thing I make sense of this is a SW->NE gene flow within Bell Beaker or something of the like. However it's not a hypothesis I like (as contradicts archaeology, it seems) so I rather think that the aDNA data panel is incomplete and possibly wrong in some cases. <br /><br />(cont.)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22924948579445035932010-05-06T03:03:41.923+03:002010-05-06T03:03:41.923+03:00ashraf,
Just looked at the traditional dance link...ashraf,<br /><br />Just looked at the traditional dance links you put up.<br /><br />As with language, you have to be extremely careful before you assume cultural association by examining a few elements of dance.<br /><br />I think it would be quite difficult to assume an association between the Vasconic and Turkish dances you put up.<br /><br />Even with Turkish and Greek dances, while there are some similarities, there are also quite significant differences.<br /><br />For starters, Western European dances seem to be danced in place and often on point (point the toe).<br /><br />Eastern European dances are usually danced in a line (of people, as in Croatia and Turkey) or in a circle. They are almost never danced on point. The dances in the Southern Balkans are almost always danced in a right rotating circle.<br /><br />There do seem to be some vague similarities between Western and Eastern European folk dances, but I think it would be extremely difficult to estimate exact associations or timescales from these similarities.<br /><br />You can google my post about bagpipes (tulum, gaida). I do happen to think these instruments are related and were carried west across Europe for pastoral and defensive purposes. The bagpipe/tulum/gaida is unique in the sound it creates and would not have been surpassed in outdoor transmission capability until the 20th century. (except by the horn, but horn is not compact and cannot easily be played continuously.) <br /><br />As I mention in my post a few months ago, the bagpipe seems to be oddly associated with populations that have a high percentage of R1b. I'm not saying that only R1b men played it, just that there seems to be an odd association with the bagpipe and r1b.<br /><br />It's quite interesting to look at the different gaida/tulum traditions:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaida<br /><br />The heartland of eastern most gaida players seems to be in Georgia/Azerbaijan/Armenia.<br /><br />There are a few cultures that took it further east, such as the Hazara, but I would suspect that that is not the heartland of where the gaida was developed.<br /><br />I don't usually go out on a limb on some pet theory. However, in the case of the gaida/bagpipe/tulum, it's hard to miss how useful and important it must have been for outdoor communication, warning and also, to keep step in advancing a line of defense.<br /><br />Keeping step might seem like a triviality, but if you've ever read about infantry warfare, you would quickly grasp how important this would be.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37705799032278078372010-05-06T02:39:46.789+03:002010-05-06T02:39:46.789+03:00“I wasn't aware of any evidence that would con...“I wasn't aware of any evidence that would connect the Minoans to megaliths...”<br /><br />To be clear, I didn't make a very strong claim. I merely said that: “A plausible ancient Maritime culture to associate with the megaliths is the Minoan culture.” But, it is splausible that the Minoans or a culture antecedent to them were connected with the megaliths.<br /><br />1. The appearance of megalithic culture is close in time to the appearance of the Near Eastern/European package of crops and domesticated animals; in the British Isles, those innovations could not have arrived without maritime trade. <br /><br />2. Megalithic is also largely exclusive of the area where the Linear Pottery migration of farming and herding is working its way up the Danube and where the Funnelbeaker culture is found. It pre-dates the Bell Beaker culture by more than 1000 years. Timing also suggests that farming and herding of Near Eastern crops likely reached the Atlantic area by a coastal route.<br /><br />3. The participants in the megalithic culture had regular maritime trade. The archeological similarities over thousands of years, all along the Atlantic and North Mediterranean coastline attest to that fact.<br /><br />4. The R1b/R1a divide coincides neatly with the areas where the megalithic culture was present and the area where the Linear Pottery/Funnelbeaker culture is found.<br /><br />5. Men with Y-DNA haplotypes immediately prior to the R1a/R1b divide are common in the Red Sea area.<br /><br />6. R1b is not found in the Eastern/Central European Linear Pottery/Funnelbeaker area in great frequencies. If R1b had its origins in Central Europe, you would expect a mix of R1a and R1b there, and would expect R1a to be ancestral to R1b, which it is not. <br /><br />7. Ancient DNA overwhelmingly supports demic replacement as the norm rather than exception in the initial expansion of farming and herding in Europe. Ancient DNA also supports significant episodes of demic replacement in the Iberia and Italy within the last thousand years.<br /><br />8. The megaliths were present in Basque Country, which was pre-IE, and also far pre-dated the Celtic culture which was the first known IE culture in the Atlantic region and dates to the 9th century BCE, several thousand of years after the megaliths. This provides strong circumstantial evidence that megaliths were part of a pre-IE culture. <br /><br />9. The Minoans were a pre-IE culture that is well known for its maritime trade; it reached at least as far as Mediterranean Spain as indicated by Minoan objects found there, hence, it is very likely that the Minoan trade network also reached as far as Sardinia, at a time when megaliths had been erected in Sardinia.<br /><br />9. The megalithic culture is not present after Bronze Age collapse (1200 BCE) and the data are not sufficiently detailed to distinguish between a demise of the megalithic culture at the time of the demise of the Minoan civilization to the IE speaking Myceneans (ca. 1400 BCE) and Bronze Age Collapse. Why would Bronze Age or Minoan collapse impact it if it was not connected.<br /><br />10. Minoans used stone crypt burial and had fertility cultures with continuity between, for example, the Megalithic culture, the Minoans and Göbekli Tepe.Marija Gimbutas wrote the book making that suggestion.<br /><br />11. Early developments of the megalithic culture it towards the North end of the range (British Isles, Brittany, greater Denmark). One could have a sequence of Near Eastern farming arriving via a coastal route in the Atlantic area, followed by megalithic religious/archeological innovation in the North by the people most reliant on the sea, followed by back migration of a maritime orientation to the Minoans whose palace culture may have been a locally influenced refinement.Andrew Oh-Willekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02537151821869153861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90692010175420314052010-05-05T17:16:09.184+03:002010-05-05T17:16:09.184+03:00I've long suspected that to be the situation. ...<i>I've long suspected that to be the situation. Celtic, German and the Italic languages have a common origin. They diverged as they spread west, north and south.</i><br /><br />These three branches of the IE language family seem to be more related to each other than to any other known IE branch, but their exact relationship to each other and also to other IE branches is very much open to debate.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24965801652726923972010-05-05T08:35:52.008+03:002010-05-05T08:35:52.008+03:00"And once you need to invoke Urnfield or even..."And once you need to invoke Urnfield or even times before that, you may as well say that Proto-Celtic is simply the most western expression of IE, and probably goes back at least 4,000 years (the start of the Central European Bronze Age), and most likely to Bell Beaker". <br /><br />I've long suspected that to be the situation. Celtic, German and the Italic languages have a common origin. They diverged as they spread west, north and south.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35537686807698206352010-05-05T04:22:25.374+03:002010-05-05T04:22:25.374+03:00Btw, the kemenches played in the links above are a...Btw, the kemenches played in the links above are all "Pontic kemenche", the traditional kemenche of northern Anatolia (Pontus). There is one other type of kemenche in Turkey: "classical kemenche", which is traditionally played in Istanbul and some of the other regions of Turkey. The instrument known by the name of "kemane" (some versions of it are also called "kabak kemane") is traditionally played in many regions of Anatolia and its environs, and like kemenche and almost all of the other musical instruments of Anatolia and its environs (including baglama), kemane has been traditionally played by both Muslims and Christians. Kemane is very close (even its name is very close) to Pontic kemenche and so can also be considered as a type of kemenche.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.com