tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post3564163069587992032..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: A solution to the problem of Indo-Aryan originsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47700675181133844882016-06-17T06:26:09.612+03:002016-06-17T06:26:09.612+03:00http://www.law.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/c...http://www.law.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/colloquium/legal-theory/documents/Kar%20-%20Western%20Legal%20Prehistory.pdfdanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502005047128926960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83129337743551297712011-01-13T06:56:44.648+02:002011-01-13T06:56:44.648+02:00Its interesting that trace amounts of Burusho and ...Its interesting that trace amounts of Burusho and Irula are found in European populations as wellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48023588643650510132010-12-25T13:48:45.253+02:002010-12-25T13:48:45.253+02:00Ashraf : "proto Iranic is 4500 years old"...Ashraf : <i>"proto Iranic is 4500 years old"</i> <br /><br />Given that old Avestan (<i>used as a language of the Zoroastrian scriptures; it's generally classified as an ancient East Iranian language (actually it's more to signify <b>"non-western"</b>), even if it's controversial</i>) is rather close to Sanskrit (<i>For instance, you can understand most of the Gathic (Old Avestan) words just by knowing Sanskrit</i>), I'm not convinced of this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72122125957701700402010-12-24T10:36:03.799+02:002010-12-24T10:36:03.799+02:00"All analyses I have read place Iranian as a ..."All analyses I have read place Iranian as a very clear IE derivative, downstream of a number of evolutions."<br /><br />I never wrote the contrary nor wrote anything about Iranian not being an IE derivative.<br />However there are of course words in Indo-European languages of Europe and Indo-European languages of India-Iran that are not IE (because of non IE phonetics and/or no cognates in the other branches and/or not motivated within IE)those words are inherited from the pre IE languages of the autochtonous(neolithic dated)pre(bronze age dated)IE folks of those regions+some loanwords from neighbor languages+some wanderworts from distant languages(words for goods, spices, metals...)for example it's estimated that 40 to 50% of Greek vocabulary is of IE origin(remaining from "Minoan","Pelasgian",Semitic,<br />Egyptian...)same for Indo-Iranian,Iranian and Indo-Aryan wich do have words from languages such as "BMAC language","Masica'a language X","Hurro-Urartean","Elamite","Dravidian","Para Munda" etc...ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71901793182339491992010-12-24T09:27:02.588+02:002010-12-24T09:27:02.588+02:00It's not Persian but proto Iranic is 4500 year...It's not Persian but proto Iranic is 4500 years old.<br />Please see below:<br />http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/lexicostatistical_comparison_of_indo_european_languages.html<br />"East Iranian<br />This is probably the most complex and controversial group among the Indo-European languages. Having been studied only as late as the 19-20th century, it remains largely unknown to many Indo-Europeanists in the west. For years, researches have tacitly assumed that there should be nothing in Iranian which can't be found in Avestan ignoring the many bizarre peculiarities of this family. It was, for instance, poorly represented in Dyen's lexicostatistical research. The group's textbook classification (Northeast to Southeast Iranian) is completely unacceptable and is hardly supported by any linguistic arguments at all. In fact, a closer look reveals a complicated branch with many different sprouts. The present lexicostatistical study, for instance, shows that the actual difference between Russian and Lithuanian might, in fact, be less than between Wakhi and Shughni, both of which are believed to be "Pamir", or sometimes even called "Pamir dialects".<br />The group average lexicostatistical depth of about 60% indicates that the East Iranian languages have been hiding around the Pamir and Hindu-Kush mountains probably since about 1000-1500 BC, branching off into several subgroups shortly after the period of separation of the whole Indo-Iranian supergroup. As a result, they can be regareded as complex and probably even a rather independent taxon of Indo-Iranian languages.<br />The most obvious feature of the East Iranian languages is a wide-spread lenition of consonants (d > ð > l; b > v; k > c, etc.) which, by the way, might be an early areal, rather than genetic feature. This makes East Iranian words look a far cry from a "normal" Indo-European:<br />Cf. Ossetic ærtæ, Shughni aráy (three)<br />Pahsto lûr, Yidga lughdoh; Ishkashimi udoGd (daughter)<br />Yd. uxsho; Sanglechi khoar; Shughni xo:gh (six)<br />Pashto le:wê [metathesis]; Shughni urj (wolf)<br />The Pamir languages may form an internal genetic unity with three following subbranches: (1) Yidgha-Munji; (2) Ishkashimi-Zebaki-Sanglechi; (3) Shughni-Rushan-Sarikoli-Yazgulami. The first two are rather closely related (1)/(2) ~80%, while the third is a little more differentiated (1)/(2); (2)/(3) ~ 70% (on average) with Yazgulami being particularly different. There might also be some speculations on relating ancient Bactrian (the language of the Kushan Kingdom) to Yidga-Munji, but the precise lexicostatical study of Bactrian is absent due to lack of lexical material."ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47323629763542439142010-12-23T14:33:41.473+02:002010-12-23T14:33:41.473+02:00Ashraf,
"Iranic is way more diverse than Sla...<i>Ashraf,</i><br /><br />"Iranic is way more diverse than Slavic=>more ancient."<br /><br />Excluding late Semitic loan words, I have never seen any evidence for this, at all. All analyses I have read place Iranian as a very clear IE derivative, downstream of a number of evolutions.<br /><br />At any rate, the paper you cite is neither mainstream, nor does it support your assertion.<br /><br />The paper you cite is a nice early exercise in computational linguistics - but just that. It's a first attempt that however at that point pretty much doesn't get anything right, yet. <br /><br /><br />Major Problems:<br /><br />- From the paper itself: "Cognates are words inferred to have a common historical origin because of systematic sound correspondences and clear similarities in form and meaning. Despite some initial enthusiasm, the method has been heavily criticized and is now largely discredited," and "substantial borrowing of lexical items between languages makes tree-based methods inappropriate." I agree with that.<br /><br />- Sound/word change timing is highly dependent on usage frequency. If you ignore that, you can easily get an order of magnitude or more wrong time estimates.<br /><br />- Modern and attested ancient IE languages plainly do not follow a clear-cut tree pattern. Local Sprachbunde are as important, sometimes more important. The Greek/Balkan complex is one well-known example. Another is Germanic languages, which pretty much at any given time have incorporated words from all over their neighbors - that is, Iranian, Slavic, Greek, Latin - and later Spanish, then yet again Slavic, French, and English. Anytime you look, you can see words that went from e.g. Slavic --> Germanic, then later back to Slavic, and sometimes back a third time. And that is mostly just the past 1,500 years. Imagine what happened before!<br /><br />In other words, a much better description of linguistics is that of regions in which language persistence and/or change happens. In that notion, labeled languages are just fleeting snapshots of somewhat congruent projections. <br /><br />It's akin the discussion of catastrophic events versus slow changes in geology or genetics - except here, when there are suddenly 200,000 people with the same language, it may be the precursor of a catastrophic change; when there are few people speaking the same dialect, things change slowly.<br /><br /><br />Some Contradictions:<br /><br />Contrary to what you say, in the tree you refer to, Persian is only ~2,000 years old (which is of course way too young)<br /><br />Proto-Greek, which may be about 4,500 to 3,500 years old, in this figure has been a 7,000 year-old isolate. But why? And where? And how? And why is it then still so similar to proto-Germanic?<br /><br />- The timing is totally off with respect to well-documented sequences. For example, Germanic language divergence happened around the Bronze age - not 250 AD (when German - not Germanic dialects had started to consolidate).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40565916306886371382010-12-23T10:28:16.082+02:002010-12-23T10:28:16.082+02:00Iranic is way more diverse than Slavic=>more an...Iranic is way more diverse than Slavic=>more ancient.<br />This is also sustained by glottochronology please see below<br />Balto-Slavic is 5400 years old while Indo-Iranian is 6600 years old.<br /><br />http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v426/n6965/fig_tab/nature02029_F1.html<br /><br /><br />The loanwords of Semitic into IE are most likely Semitic because they are motivated within Semitic and have Afro-Asiatic cognates for example:<br />"There is no doubt that bar/bur (grain) is widespread not only in semitic but throughout afro-asiatic"<br />"as for proto indo-hitttie *kou (bull,cow), Orel and Stolbova propose an Afro-Asiatic root *gar=calf, the possible related form gw can be placed in another Afroasiatic root *gaw also attested in Berber, East Chadic and Omotic."ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88912871536122942192010-12-23T10:26:23.840+02:002010-12-23T10:26:23.840+02:00Iranic is way more diverse than Slavic=>more an...Iranic is way more diverse than Slavic=>more ancient.<br />This is also sustained by glottochronology please see below<br />Balto-Slavic is 5400 years old while Indo-Iranian is 6600 years old.<br /><br />Here below some 2 possible clues about a possible Western Asian origin for Indo-Iranian from Martin Bernal's book "afro-asiatic roots...<br />1"Pokorny describes (the pie root for six) uncertainly as *sueks,*seks,*kseks,*ksueks,*ueks or*uks.The Sanskrit form is xat but the Avestan is xsvas.The initial cluster xsv is unparalleled in Indo-European.This suggests a loan but from what Semitic form?Akkadian and Hebrew have forms based on s--s/t.The conventional explanation is that the Semitic root is *sds,but th,s was dropped in the southwest asian languages.Saul Levin uses Egyptian form sis or srsw to postulate that the Afroasiatic root was SeCS.He also insists on the importance of the linked numbers six and seven in mesopotamian and semitic culture.There were for instance, the seven visible planets, leading to the days of the week, the seven days of creation and resting after the sixth day, not to mention the sexagesimal system."<br />2"The word "Aryan" has an Afroasiatic origin.It is a loan from Semitic into Indo-Iranian.In Ugaritic the name "ary" was used as a gentilic (name of a people), but the word "ary" (companion) is clearly related to Egyptian "iri" with the same meaning.This relationship is only one of a number of LINGUISTIC INDICATIONS THAT THE INDO-IRANIAN WERE IN CLOSE CONTACT WITH SEMITIC SPEAKING PEOPLES OF MESOPOTAMIA AND SYRIA.the Indo-Europeanist Oswald Szemerenyi has argued plausibly that the reduction from PIE 5 vowel systems (a,e,i,o,u) to a 3 vowel system (a,i,u) in Indo-Iranian was the result of contact with speakers of Semitic.As Szemerenyi emphasizes, such a fundamental borrowing indicates very close contacts." <br /><br />The loanwords of Semitic into IE are most likely Semitic because they are motivated within Semitic and have Afro-Asiatic cognates for example:<br />"There is no doubt that bar/bur (grain) is widespread not only in semitic but throughout afro-asiatic"<br />"as for proto indo-hitttie *kou (bull,cow), Orel and Stolbova propose an Afro-Asiatic root *gar=calf, the possible related form gw can be placed in another Afroasiatic root *gaw also attested in Berber, East Chadic and Omotic."ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76650231872042346522010-12-23T06:14:04.380+02:002010-12-23T06:14:04.380+02:00Ziemowit,
A little OT, I agree that Slavic (and p...<i>Ziemowit,</i><br /><br />A little OT, I agree that Slavic (and perhaps even more so Baltic) are more conservative in many ways. However, part of that is also that western IE languages have had their own shared contacts for the past 3,500 years or so. There is just no straightforward tree for modern IE languages, but the older forms are often still present.<br /><br />For example, you still have northern German <i>kollern</i> (the sound something heavy makes when it rolls or when it becomes "unround"), <i>kullern</i> (to roll), and of course German Kugel (sphere, ball). You can see how the other forms (to roll/rollen/Rolle; sphere, ball) have become more mainstream in western IE, but the other form persist.<br /><br />At any rate, whether Semitic <-> IE or Germanic/Slavic <-> Iranian, one has to be very careful about the actual direction and antiquity of loanwords. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if many shared agricultural words are loosely of pre-IE Anatolian origin and migrated from there into adjacent directions and territories, which independently evolved different language groups such as Semitic and IE. In such a scenario, a specific loanword is neither Semitic nor IE.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11684118412114437682010-12-23T01:22:53.464+02:002010-12-23T01:22:53.464+02:00@ Ziemowit :
"Waggg, those “typically Indo-...@ Ziemowit : <br /><br /><i>"Waggg, those “typically Indo-Iranian words” are in fact typically Slavic words"</i><br /><br />I don't think so. These specific words (and a few others) are only shared by Slavic and Indo-iranian if I'm not mistaken, they are not found in other IE language families AFAIK. Thus they quite likely entered Slavic because of the Scythian or Sarmatian presence in their area of origin (Slavic and Indo-iranian are not exactly twin sisters despite what you seem to say). <br /><br /><i>"Waggg, there is no relation between Scythians and Ossetians"</i><br /><br />Not Specifically Scythians, but Alans, it seems so.<br /><br /><i>"Scythians were not Iranians. We know it from genetics. Read here"</i><br /><br />I can't go these pages, but that's really unimportant because I can't see how genes could show that Scythians weren't speaking some Iranic languages. <br /><br />Plus IIRC, the testing of ancient DNA from Scythians or Sarmatians' Kurgans (mtDNA-wise) fit what was found in the ancient DNA of the Andronovo horizon. <br /><br /><i>"Waggg, please don’t quote Wikipedia, it is mostly outdated crap. Try to find some scientific peer reviewed papers."</i><br /><br />Since Wikipedia is using scientific peer-reviewed studies I can't see how your comment is of any relevance. <br />Besides, the Iranic-speaking Scythian/Saka is clearly the mainstream theory, so...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47873349861383816762010-12-23T00:18:43.941+02:002010-12-23T00:18:43.941+02:00“So how comes some Typically Indo-iranian words ar...“So how comes some Typically Indo-iranian words are found among Slavic languages?”<br /><br />Waggg, those “typically Indo-Iranian words” are in fact typically Slavic words. There are hundreds of similar, almost identical words. Those languages are very closely related. Learn Polish and Vedic Sanskrit and you will see. Polish is more archaic and conservative. Words are closer to PIE. For example ‘wheel’ in Polish is ‘kolo’ and ‘kulko’ in Vedic Sanscrit it is “cakra”, in Avestan Iranian it is “caktra”. So we can see here a lot of sound changes and modifications: ‘k’–>’c’, ‘l’–>’r’ . Assumed PIE roots are “*kuel” and „*keklo”.<br />Linguistic relation may be similar to this: <br />http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zAeGFbarHks/SwHlpODZirI/AAAAAAAAANY/-M9G1L_dJIQ/s800/fala.jpg<br /><br /><br />“What about Ossetian? and what about the Saka language of Xinjiang? What about all the recorded names of Scythian, Sarmatian and Alanic individuals?”<br /><br />Waggg, there is no relation between Scythians and Ossetians. Scythians were not Iranians. We know it from genetics. Read here:<br /><br />https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=167673&postcount=126<br /><br />https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=182068&postcount=129<br /><br />Waggg, please don’t quote Wikipedia, it is mostly outdated crap. Try to find some scientific peer reviewed papers.EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51156766348296682932010-12-22T22:03:57.280+02:002010-12-22T22:03:57.280+02:00@ Ziemowit : "So all those languages between ...@ Ziemowit : <i>"So all those languages between India and Iran and Eastern Europe could be either closer to Indo-Iranian or to Slavic. We don’t know that. " </i><br /><br />So how comes some Typically <i>Indo-iranian</i> words are found among Slavic languages? <br /><br />E.g. Russian <i>bog</i> (god) and Indo-iranian <i>bhagas</i> or Russian <i>budit'</i> (to awake, to wake up) from the same root than the Indo-aryan word <i>Buddha</i> (meaning "the awakened one")?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1420719691761030902010-12-22T21:57:16.803+02:002010-12-22T21:57:16.803+02:00ziemovit : "Scythian languages are not known&...<b>ziemovit</b> : <i>"Scythian languages are not known"</i><br /><br />What about Ossetian? and what about the Saka language of Xinjiang? What about all the recorded names of Scythian, Sarmatian and Alanic individuals? <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#Classification<br /><br /><b>Dienekes</b> : <i>"for the Cimmerians there is zero evidence that they were Iranians"</i><br /><br />Given their nomadic "way of life" (close to the Scythians; let's not forget this typical way of life appeared only a few centuries earlier in the central Asian steppes), and the name of some of their kings, it's generally supposed they at least had an Indo-iranian elite. <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#Origins<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#Language<br /><br /><b>AdygheChabadi</b> : <i>"Hittite ("centum") "azu-wa", Ugaritic "ssw"" - "I thought that the Anatolian IE languages were older than the Indo-Iranian branch and developed separately from Indo-Iranian as many of the innovations found in many ancient IE languages are lacking in the Anatolian languages."</i> <br /><br />So what? That's the whole point. <br />In the Kurgan theory, it generally is supposed that some Indo-iranians brought the concept of war chariot in west Asia and the blood horses to fit the requirements for this type of warfare (hence the Mitanni case of an Indo-iranian elite and the vocabulary about horse and chariot among a Hurrian-speaking population (all invaders)). <br />The words would have been adopted by the populations concerned by the process (Ugarit and Hittites were neighbors of the Mitanni, BTW). <br /><br />As for Lycian "esbe" (I think it's attested toward 700 bc) I'm not even totally sure it is linked with Indo-iranian since by that time, IE "satem language-speaking" population that supposedly migrated from south-east Europe to Anatolia (Phrygians for instance. The Thracians were Satem, at least in classical time. Also think of the Moesia region of ancient south-east Balkans and of Mysia of north-western Anatolia that could possibly support this view).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11502601446425576372010-12-22T20:47:27.671+02:002010-12-22T20:47:27.671+02:00Pconroy, I asked you for scientific peer reviewed ...Pconroy, I asked you for scientific peer reviewed papers, not internet crap. What Valentin Stetsyuk writes is total nonsense. I have never heard about Turks in Europe before Indo-European expansion. I have never heard about Anglo-Saxons in Central Europe etc.<br /><br />Germanic, Celtic, Iranian, Greek and other IE languages didn’t originate in Eastern Europe. Germanic languages evolved in Western Europe, so did Celtic, Iranian in Iran and Greek in Greece. They are all related to PIE, but they were not formed in one homeland.<br /> <br />It is like with Romance languages. Romance languages come from Latin, but they didn’t originate in Rome, or even in Italy. It wasn’t like that Latin split into Romanian, Portuguese, French and Spanish languages in Italy and then Romanian tribes migrated from Italy to Romania, Portuguesa tribes migrated from Italy to Portugal etc. It is nonsense.<br /><br />I repeat, Scythian languages are not known. We cannot assign them precisely to any language family because we don’t know their grammar and lexicon. Did they have dual forms 500 B. C. like PIE and Slavic languages today or lost them like all Indo-Iranian languages before 600 B.C.? Did they have ‘o’ vowel like PIE and Slavic or only ‘a’ vowel like Indo-Iranian? How verbs were conjugated, like PIE and Slavic or did they follow modified Indo-Iranian paradigm? How nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and articles were inflected?<br />We don’t know that, because no Scythian text has survived. If we knew that we would be able to say whether they were more similar to Slavic or to Indo-Iranian. <br />It is believed that there existed Proto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian continuum some time ago, because Vedic Sanskrit and Avestan are similar to Slavic. But Vedic Sanskrit was formed in India, Avestan in Iran not in Europe. So all those languages between India and Iran and Eastern Europe could be either closer to Indo-Iranian or to Slavic. We don’t know that. <br />Slavic languages are more archaic and conservative, closer to PIE, than Indo-Iranian languages and I believe that Scythian languages could be closer to Slavic because genetic studies of aDNA tell us that ancient Scythians were genetically closer to Slavs than to Iranians, and languages usually correlate with genes.<br />https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=182068&postcount=129EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29511348373989013922010-12-22T20:06:42.104+02:002010-12-22T20:06:42.104+02:00If I'm not mistaken, the whole concept of the ...If I'm not mistaken, the whole concept of the seven-day week is not only Semitic, but particularly Jewish, and it spread to other cultures. This is contrary to the claim in Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi's Kuzari, that it is a universal, and constitutes a proof for common ancestry (in the Biblical time frame)Zoharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13777354773864518000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13743931037647259992010-12-22T19:28:15.441+02:002010-12-22T19:28:15.441+02:00I don’t want to claim that the Indo-Aryans lived i...I don’t want to claim that the Indo-Aryans lived in Europe, just a small sidemark.<br /><br />Herodotus mentions the Iranic Sigynian in Europe.<br />But they were most likely within the Scythic/Cimmerian spectrum of Indo-Iranians. Less likely remaining fragments of Indo-Iranians from the balkans.Patarameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584120532418176778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20655663361060529002010-12-22T18:23:03.369+02:002010-12-22T18:23:03.369+02:00Adyghe,
In terms of the Gutians, I've seen sp...Adyghe,<br /><br />In terms of the Gutians, I've seen speculation that they are:<br />Goths<br />Jats<br /><br />But, the most likely is that they are:<br />Kurdspconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55809766278031490182010-12-22T11:53:36.517+02:002010-12-22T11:53:36.517+02:00Proto Turkic for 7 is sette please see below:
htt...Proto Turkic for 7 is sette please see below:<br /><br />http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/<br /><br />Not only seven but according to the linguist Blazek, most of the Turkic numerals (wich do not have cognate within other Altaic branches) has no Turkic nor Altaic etymology and he connects many of them to Tocharian and East Iranian forms, for example iki (2) from Iranic (eki=one by one), bis (5) from Tocharian, bir from IE per (fore), tört (4) from Iranic (char) etc...ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86597447833960896192010-12-22T06:58:49.919+02:002010-12-22T06:58:49.919+02:00BTW, I just came across this provocative article t...BTW, I just came across this provocative article titled:<br /><b>Introduction to the Study of Prehistoric Ethnogenic Processes in Eastern Europe </b> (Word Doc):<br />alterling2.narod.ru/English/AO23.doc<br /><br />Where the author Valentin Stetsyuk, Lviv, Ukraine writes about the relationship of the Germans vs Iranians in the North Pontic Steppes (aka Ukraine)?! <br /><br />He states: <i><br />When the Turks left their territory, the migration of the Indo-Europeans followed. As the first, speakers of Hittite-Luwian moved in the direction of Anatolia and entered there around or after 2000 BC. Later the Celts, the Illyrians, the Italics advanced westward, and the Greeks migrated towards the Balkan Peninsula following the way of the Hittite-Luwians. The Indo-Aryans went to the southeast, but the Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, and Iranian tribes remained in Eastern Europe for a long time. Such presumption can be plausible as the Slavic, Baltic, Iranian, and Germanic languages share some mutual characteristic features. One of them in contrast to the other Indo-European languages is transforming the ancient Indo-European bh to b. These two sounds were fallen together in the Slavic, Baltic, Iranian languages but in Germanic b was evolved to p. The voiced aspirated stop bh either has kept or evolved to different sounds in the other Indo-European languages. <br /></i><br /><br />Based on linguistic evidence, like word lists correspondence, he produces a speculative map of Germanics and Iranics on the East European Steppes, which I've uploaded here:<br />http://i53.tinypic.com/141o5dg.jpg<br /><br />I'm no linguist, so can't properly evaluate the evidence, but I will say that it would offer an alternative explanation to the "Dagestani" component, which would account for elevated levels in NW Europeans (British/Germans/Scandinavians) ?!pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60711722504012871472010-12-22T05:31:07.623+02:002010-12-22T05:31:07.623+02:00This is the link that shows Elamite as a child lan...This is the link that shows Elamite as a child language of Proto-Afro-Asiatic:<br /><br />http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/afro-asiatic.png&imgrefurl=http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/tag/afro-asiatic/&usg=__xupQI0GhAlMc0TO_GTT2T386KeY=&h=414&w=705&sz=17&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=ulyLGl5CP7BRtM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=161&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAfro-Asiatic%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D636%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=535&vpy=213&dur=2419&hovh=172&hovw=293&tx=147&ty=73&ei=MXARTcaZLsL78Aa7xJTVDQ&oei=MXARTcaZLsL78Aa7xJTVDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64547049625266775002010-12-22T05:21:57.011+02:002010-12-22T05:21:57.011+02:00Then there is the mystery of the Gutian Language.....Then there is the mystery of the Gutian Language...was it IE or an isolate???<br /><br />To me, the evidence very clearly points to the Indo-Iranian languages coming from the east and spreading westward...But I am also prone to think that there may have been a migration of Indo-Iranian/ Aryan speakers that came down through the Caucasus from the Caspian steppes southward...but I have no evidence of this other than to say it is extremely plausible.<br /><br />I found this site that seems to agree with me...they say, "To the north of the Kassites, there lived a group of people called Hurrians who were probably the native inhabitants of the southern Caucasus. They spoke a language unrelated to all other languages around them, and they seem to have spread quickly around the landscape in the second millennium BCE. Their area of influence stretched westwards to the Van Lake area and made them neighbours of the Hatti and later the Hittite Kingdom. Around the 1400 BCE, a group of Hurrian people formed a kingdom called the Mitanni in the areas of modern Kurdistan and eastern Turkey. The Mitannis adopted the Assyrian cuneiform and have thus left us with a few written documents of their civilisation. From these documents and also from an important inscription detailing a Mitanni peace treaty with the Hittites, we know that at least the ruling class of the Mitanni kingdom were from an Indo-European and specifically Indo-Aryan background. A manual for training of horses uses many Indo-European names for horse accessories, and in the aforementioned peace treaty, we have the name of many Indo-Aryan deities included in the pantheon of Mitanni gods. This has for long puzzled the historians, since the distance between the Mitanni and the rest of the Indo-Aryans who at the time lived in Central Asia and Afghanistan is great. Conventional scholarship suggests a migration of Indo-Iranians from the plains of Central Asia to northeastern Iran and then south to the Indus Valley. If this view is accepted, the existence of a semi-isolated Indo-Aryan ruling class in western Iran seems highly confusing. A possible suggested answer is the migration of a branch of Indo-Iranians from the northern plains of the Caspian Sea down the Caucasus and into western Iran. This and other suggestions seem to be kept at the level of theory in the absence of empirical evidence in their support."<br />http://www.iranologie.com/history/history1.html<br /><br />What do you think of that, Dienekes?AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76947133065722462732010-12-22T05:19:55.627+02:002010-12-22T05:19:55.627+02:00The Kassites lived immediately north of the Elamit...The Kassites lived immediately north of the Elamites, another linguistic isolate (possibly a distant child of Proto-Afro-Asiatic or a distant relative of it, like a sister language...which, if Elamitic did not already have a name, would technically be called, "Para-Afro-Asiatic"...that is based on Witzel's usage of Para-Munda...A language related to, but not ancestral to Munda). <br /><br />Based on what I have read, Elamite has few, if not any, Indo-European borrowings at all...<br /><br />And from everything I have read...Indo-European languages borrowed words from the Semitic languages...I know of one case where the Indo-European terminology was adapted into the Semitic form and that was in the case of the Philistines...who were, apparently, Indo-European and transitioned to a Canaanitic Language that retained many Indo-European words in the form of a substrate language. Some of these Philistine substrate words made their way into one of the older forms of Hebrew (Biblical). For instance, the word, "Seranim"...apparently, meaning rulers or lords.<br /><br />But anyway...it is well-known by many linguists that there are many possible and known Semitic loans in Indo-European Languages...Here is a list I found: http://www.esnips.com/doc/d918fdbb-1f5b-4465-9038-b16a04bf6dca/SemiticPreIEloans_20080817/?widget=documentIcon<br /><br />From this website: http://paleoglot.blogspot.com/2008/08/list-of-possible-proto-semitic-loanword.html<br /><br />And also here...a 39 page pdf about the influence of Vasconic and Semitic languages on Indo-European: http://www.cls.psu.edu/pubs/pubs/LINGUA1158.pdf<br /><br />Also of interest is this paper on the origins of Proto-Semitic...It could also shed light on the impact of Semitic on PIE: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/rspb20090408.pdfAdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6042773096932288022010-12-22T03:57:21.317+02:002010-12-22T03:57:21.317+02:00I am still unconvinced of Indo-Aryans originating ...I am still unconvinced of Indo-Aryans originating in the west, well, somewhere close to the Near East.<br /><br />There is other evidence not being considered...Such as the apparent Indo-Aryan and non-Indo-Aryan IE words that appear in what little Kassite (considered a language isolate) writing we have...For example:<br /><br />Bugash, possibly the name of a god, it is also used as a title.<br /><br />Buriash, Ubriash, or Burariash, a storm god, (= Greek Boreas)<br /><br />Duniash, a deity<br /><br />Gidar, corresponding to Babylonian Adar<br /><br />Hala, a goddess, wife of Adar/Nusku, see Shala<br /><br />Harbe, lord of the pantheon, symbolized by a bird, corresponding to Bel, Enlil or Anu<br /><br />Hardash, possibly the name of a god<br /><br />Hudha, corresponding to a Babylonian "Air-god"<br /><br />Indash, possibly corresponding to Sanskrit Indra<br /><br />Kamulla, corresponding to Babylonian Ea<br /><br />Kashshu, (Kassu) a god, eponymous ancestor of the Kassite kings<br /><br />Maruttash, or Muruttash, (possibly corresponding to the Vedic Maruts, a plural form)<br /><br />Miriash, a goddess (of the earth?), probably the same as the next one<br /><br />Mirizir, a goddess, corresponding to Belet, the Babylonian goddess Beltis, i.e. Ishtar = the planet Venus; symbolized with the 8 pointed star<br /><br />Nanai, or Nanna, possibly a Babylonian name, the goddess<br /><br />Ishtar (Venus star) as a huntress, appearing on kudurrus as a female on a throne.<br /><br />Shah, a sun god, corresponding to Babylonian Shamash, and possibly to Sanskrit Sahi.<br /><br />Shala, a goddess, symbolized by a barley stalk, also called Hala<br /><br />Shihu, one of the names of Marduk<br /><br />Shimalia, goddess of the mountains, a form of the name Himalaya, Semele, see Shumalia<br /><br />Shipak, a moon god<br /><br />Shugab, god of the underworld, corresponding to Babylonian Nêrgal<br /><br />Shugurra, corresponding to Babylonian Marduk<br /><br />Shumalia, goddess symbolized by a bird on perch, one of two deities associated with the investiture of kings<br /><br />Shuqamuna, a god symbolized by a bird on a perch, one of two associated with the investiture of kings<br /><br />Shuriash, corresponding to Babylonian Shamash, and possibly to Vedic Surya, also a sun god, but this might be the star Sirius, which has an arrow as a symbol<br /><br />Turgu, a deity<br />http://pierce.yolasite.com/kassite.phpAdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62876416573507739482010-12-22T00:54:31.020+02:002010-12-22T00:54:31.020+02:00Pconroy, I am interested in scientific peer review...Pconroy, I am interested in scientific peer reviewed papers on Scythian or Sarmatian languages not in pseudoscientific etymologies and speculations.<br /> Those languages are not known. There is no agreement in regard to hydronims. Each can have 10 different etymologies from different languages. Borystenes for example has Greek, Iranian, Baltic, 5 Slavic and many other etymologies. Similarly other. We don’t know who and when named those rivers and how those names evolved and what they really mean and how correctly they represent original names.<br />There is no R1b on the steppe in aDNA or modern distribution, so forget about Celts or Germans.<br />Scythians were R1a1.<br />What happened with Scythians?<br />https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=241156&postcount=1608EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31021164599494754522010-12-22T00:13:58.098+02:002010-12-22T00:13:58.098+02:00Dienekes, where did Herodotus mention that Scythia...<i>Dienekes, where did Herodotus mention that Scythians were Iranians?</i><br /><br />Herodotus had no concept of an Iranian language family. The inference that they were Iranians comes from linguists. Also, by Iranian I don't mean inhabitants of Iran, but the linguistic category.<br /><br /><br /><i>2. Concerning Herodotus, didn't he also say there were several stories about the Scythians and indeed in the story you cite didn't he say the Scythians displaced ANOTHER Iranian speaking people in Europe (the Cimmerians)? <br /></i><br /><br />There is scant evidence that the Scythians themselves were Iranians; for the Cimmerians there is zero evidence that they were Iranians.<br /><br /><br /><i>They go on to equate the Indo-iranians with the "Timber Grave Culture" and their substrate with the "Abashevo Culture", with some links to the "Catacomb Culture"</i><br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/scythians-of-north-pontic-region.html<br /><br />"not a single biological fact (at least insofar as craniometry is concerned) suggests that the only, or at least the principal ancestors of the steppe Scythians were people of the Timber-grave culture"Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com