tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post330810090994129832..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Some ADMIXTURE estimates in EurasiaDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58378801159996294302010-10-10T18:09:08.786+03:002010-10-10T18:09:08.786+03:00How does this scheme for the Finns and Skandinavia...How does this scheme for the Finns and Skandinavia nations?Errant-programmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509755152200782634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82387995447446639702010-10-03T21:52:15.863+03:002010-10-03T21:52:15.863+03:00Y-DNA Q is absent in the Saami, but found at 4% in...Y-DNA Q is absent in the Saami, but found at 4% in Norwegians<br />http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG/800px-Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNGPallantideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17274599344150375033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88380800336182982452010-10-02T12:11:41.342+03:002010-10-02T12:11:41.342+03:00In Russia the largest East Asian component probabl...In Russia the largest East Asian component probably is in the regions affected by the Turco-Mongol invasion, like those close to Kazakhstan, Southern Volga and Tatarstan.<br />Turkicworls.org/genetics describes both mtDNA and Y in various regions and the share of eastern mtDNA is high in these areas but absent in old Finno-Ugric populatiosn like Mari and Komi-Zyryans.<br />Inn the Far North there might be another source of Eastern mtDNA tha originally came from the Paleosiberian Q populations to the Khanty over the Ob-Yenisey river systems. Some of it was transmitted with fur trade westwards to the Komi and Vepsians and from them to Novgorod.<br />The Saami are very heterogenous and might have an old Iberian component by th atlantic caost but also a Q component by the Atlantic coast from the East.<br />A trace of Q can still be found in Trondheim region in Norway, and might have reached the Orkney islands also.<br />DNA Tribes seems to find some " Amerind" influence over Siberia. <br />Turkicworld.org/genetics now has a rather new article by Anatoli Klyosov that might deserve its own discussion.Pikeperchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03762681546916941870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72951447430762361042010-10-02T01:18:21.801+03:002010-10-02T01:18:21.801+03:00One more thing to add: most of Persia, Mesopotamia...One more thing to add: most of Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria and Transcaucasia have the "northern Mongoloid" component in equal shade with most of Central Asia in your maps, which is also implausible.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85746584595049487202010-10-01T21:54:50.606+03:002010-10-01T21:54:50.606+03:00Fanty, your third group of maps are implausible as...Fanty, your third group of maps are implausible as they show the "southern Mongoloid" component in Asia Minor in equal shade with Kazakhstan and show no visible "southern Mongoloid" component in southern Central Asia, and also as they show the "northern Mongoloid" component more in East Europe and Asia Minor than in most of Central Asia. These are all in direct contradiction with the results of Behar et al. and all other genetic studies of these regions so far and also with anthropology and craniometry in addition to genetics.<br /><br /><i>The dog bites itself into the tail.<br /><br />"Racial purity" could be only measured by autosomal genetic testing.<br /><br />But to interpret the results you need to know wich are the "racial purest" populations.<br /><br />So this is doomed to fail.</i><br /><br />My formula above is plausible. All I need is experiments to show that it works.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80710495472029673532010-09-30T20:26:35.015+03:002010-09-30T20:26:35.015+03:00The dog bites itself into the tail.
"Racial ...The dog bites itself into the tail.<br /><br />"Racial purity" could be only measured by autosomal genetic testing.<br /><br />But to interpret the results you need to know wich are the "racial purest" populations.<br /><br />So this is doomed to fail.<br /><br />I have made several diverent maps of those admixture calculations of Behar recently (used the more detailed charts in the PDF). To get a better picture of what they claim.<br /><br />This here are maps of K2 and K3 intra European:<br />http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8849/k23.gif<br /><br />Thats a map of the K8 intra European:<br /><br />http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3366/k8intraeuropeanadmixtur.jpg<br /><br />And this is a razer lazy done K10, world wide (Actually Europe, Africa, Asia) in a different style (one map for each admixture component)<br /><br />The darkness of the color is also not proportional to the admixture. But good enough to get the idea.<br /><br />Its that admixture result that made Litharians apear "THE European" somehow.<br /><br />http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/923/k10n.jpgFantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37179451473488208292010-09-30T00:43:36.056+03:002010-09-30T00:43:36.056+03:00there are Caucasoid/East Asian populations with Ea...<i>there are Caucasoid/East Asian populations with East Asian/Caucasoid admixture</i><br /><br />If ingredients of the West European and East Asian averages are chosen from the racially purest West European and East Asian populations, then their averages can be used as gold standards for Caucasoidness and Mongoloidness respectively. A similar gold standard for Dravidoidness (South Asian race) can be established from an average of the racially most Dravidoid South Asian populations. In fact, similar gold standards can be established for virtually all races.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83791763838894439472010-09-29T23:40:24.446+03:002010-09-29T23:40:24.446+03:00You guys are way over me but isn't race geneti...You guys are way over me but isn't race genetics about structure and not viewing populations as being elemental (irreducible). <br /><br />Supposedly the French Basques are the most "European" because they've had less admixture. But that implies their is a parent population shared by Europeans being considered pure. Haven't the Basques been drifting from this parent population due to evolution? Also that parent population was never perfectly homogeneous. I just don't understand how you decide on a elemental population. The above combined with the fact that the Basques are more isolated from other europeans than say the English possibly makes them less European. Wouldn't the English better capture recent European specific mutations?<br /><br />I guess I'm talking about a trade off.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64336116052549664402010-09-29T22:11:05.101+03:002010-09-29T22:11:05.101+03:00The Spaniards always cluster with French and North...The Spaniards always cluster with French and Northern Italians, so I would expect Spaniards to be also 98.1 Euro. Nothing strange.GrIQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02907176579081773431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80000866975432148062010-09-29T19:43:43.458+03:002010-09-29T19:43:43.458+03:00My proposal is this: If we are to calculate the Ca...<i>My proposal is this: If we are to calculate the Caucasoidness and Mongoloidness of a population, we'd better compare it to a bundle of West European and a bundle of East Asian populations. This will prevent the effects of population-specific deviations.</i><br /><br />Your proposal is misguided as there are Caucasoid/East Asian populations with East Asian/Caucasoid admixture. Hence, your study dedign would not produce an accurate estimate.<br /><br />If one is interested in determining how much gold was added to an alloy, they do it by measuring against pure (or as unadmixed as possible) gold, they do not measure against what most "gold" artifacts are.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-540166870606598662010-09-29T18:58:05.363+03:002010-09-29T18:58:05.363+03:00What I mean by bundle is average.What I mean by bundle is average.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57838341886027830392010-09-29T18:48:27.901+03:002010-09-29T18:48:27.901+03:00Basques are neither isolated nor inbred, nor disti...<i>Basques are neither isolated nor inbred, nor distinct from other Iberians.</i><br /><br />Basques deviate from other Iberians to some extent (not necessarily very much) in all the freely accessible studies (the study you mention isn't freely accessible) I've seen that included them both. But other Iberians too are distinct from other Europeans to some extent. <br /><br />My proposal is this: If we are to calculate the Caucasoidness and Mongoloidness of a population, we'd better compare it to a bundle of West European and a bundle of East Asian populations. This will prevent the effects of population-specific deviations.<br /><br /><i>If we were to use Iberians and general, we would be using a population with North African (and in some cases) Negroid admixture.</i><br /><br />I think the non-Caucasoid admixture in Iberians is being exaggerated.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88321699004526529652010-09-29T16:19:24.295+03:002010-09-29T16:19:24.295+03:00Well, use of genetic poles is apparently importan...Well, use of genetic poles is apparently important to have distinct results, but also misleading when populations under the analysis has historically nothing to do with one or another of those poles.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54497339039449376432010-09-29T16:00:30.935+03:002010-09-29T16:00:30.935+03:00Basques are not a genetic isolate
I should put it...<i>Basques are not a genetic isolate</i><br /><br />I should put it this way: Basques are from a genetically <b>relatively</b> inbred/isolated segment of SW Europeans, so they shouldn't be used as a pole for Caucasoidness. Spaniards as a whole or the Portuguese represent the genetics of SW Europe much better than Basques.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34007573112103010482010-09-29T15:29:05.462+03:002010-09-29T15:29:05.462+03:00Basques are not a genetic isolate<a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05/basques-are-not-genetic-isolate.html" rel="nofollow">Basques are not a genetic isolate</a>Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20304521243192489082010-09-29T13:17:28.178+03:002010-09-29T13:17:28.178+03:00I don't know much about Orcadian history. But ...I don't know much about Orcadian history. But if they are genetically non-isolated (unlike Basques and Sardinians) and are genetically typical West Europeans, they can be used as a pole for Caucasoidness.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67805313970709991582010-09-29T02:32:31.361+03:002010-09-29T02:32:31.361+03:00Orcadians are a mix of Norse vikings and British w...Orcadians are a mix of Norse vikings and British women in the first place. So, they should be a typical Germanic/Celtic blend and by this represent a lot of Americans.<br /><br />If there is native American or central Asian in them, it must be from their Norse admixture.<br /><br />If they would be such a bad anchor, why would FTDNA do them the highest weighted reference population for their "Western European" tag?<br /><br />Well ok, they had out "Western European" like candy, maybe because of the quiet centralized position of Orkadians.<br /><br />I made this (better viewable)map:<br />http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/519/500ksnp.jpg<br /><br />from this project here:<br />500K SNP try to recreate the Bahar map with more populations (volunters who send in their profiles):<br /><br />Some of these clusters base on too few people yet (UK on 2, Germany on 2...)<br /><br />http://bga101.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I have heard today comes an update, wich is possibly containing my data aswell.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84650345793256683642010-09-29T01:56:20.304+03:002010-09-29T01:56:20.304+03:00I wouldn't use Orcadians for any population ad...<i>I wouldn't use Orcadians for any population admixture analysis, they are NOT a good sample!</i><br /><br />I wouldn't use not just Orcadians, but also any other isolated population like Sardinians and Basques. Caucasoidness should be measured using typical West European populations like the English, French, etc. as poles, just as Mongoloidness is measured using typical central East Asian populations like the Han Chinese, Japanese, etc. as poles.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83871285523247136482010-09-28T23:03:19.385+03:002010-09-28T23:03:19.385+03:00pconroy, what do you think about FTDNA using the o...pconroy, what do you think about FTDNA using the orcadians as the Western Euro reference. Have you taken the Pop finder test?Salabencherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01636826320080888533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37722919735005157662010-09-28T21:32:22.809+03:002010-09-28T21:32:22.809+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75836725289416976622010-09-28T19:39:07.537+03:002010-09-28T19:39:07.537+03:00Dienekes,
I wouldn't use Orcadians for any po...Dienekes,<br /><br />I wouldn't use Orcadians for any population admixture analysis, they are NOT a good sample!<br /><br />On 23AndMe they are skewed far away from the other European clusters, just like the Basque and Sardinians. Americans who are of British, Scandinavian and Native American heritage, frequently cluster with the Orcadians - providing evidence that there is some Central Asian/Native American heritage in the Orkenyar - or else that there is some very ancient North Eurasian heritage there. Either way, they don't represent Northern or Western Europeans too well.<br /><br />On DeCodeMe, although I am Irish, I am closer to the French and Icelandic samples than the Orkney one - so a poor proxy for British/Irish too.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.com