tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2783074111616489445..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Dorothy King on Greek homosexualityDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13977424507250661752012-06-01T22:39:54.056+03:002012-06-01T22:39:54.056+03:00I'm way too late, but I'd like to point ou...I'm way too late, but I'd like to point out that there's also Demosthenes' <i>Against Androtion</i>, speech 30, in which he says:<br /><br /><i>"Now it is worth your while, men of Athens, to study too the character of Solon, who framed this law, and to observe what care he took of the constitution in all the laws, how much more zealous indeed he was for the constitution than for the matter on which he was legislating. This may be seen in many ways, but especially from this law, which forbids persons guilty of prostitution to make speeches or to propose measures. For he saw that the majority of you do not avail yourselves of your right to speak, so that the prohibition seemed no great hardship, and he could have laid down many harsher penalties, if his object had been the chastisement of these offenders.</i><br /><br />"Numerous well-known pederastic relationships, such as that of Patroclus and Achilles, were explicitly homosexual, yet also regarded as chaste."<br /><br />What an insult to their memory!<br /><br /><i>But in his inner tent, an ampler space,<br />Achilles slept; and in his warm embrace<br />Fair Diomede of the Lesbian race.<br />Last, for Patroclus was the couch prepared,<br />Whose nightly joys the beauteous Iphis shared;<br />Achilles to his friend consign'd her charms<br />When Scyros fell before his conquering arms.</i><br /><br />The Iliad, Book IX.<br /><br />Also,<br /><br />"A surprise to him was the relatively low number of male homosexual scenes of copulation: 13 to 15, as opposed to 82 heterosexual ones or, put another way, 18% of the total (using the higher figure). He had expected a stronger showing of the homosexual theme, "given the view scholarship has taken over the last century or so"<br />Of her 393 vase paintings, 14% have a male homosexual content, in the form of gods pursuing mortal adolescents."<br /><br />Which would mean only 55 vase paintings. Over 100,000 vases have been found in ancient Greece, which means that only 0.05% have homosexual content, an incredibly small number for a civilization where homosexuality was apparently common and accepted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-22782487377667673952010-10-18T23:13:10.851+03:002010-10-18T23:13:10.851+03:00Also, Aeschines mentions a number of laws promulga...Also, Aeschines mentions a number of laws promulgated by Solon, who was a noted pederast who enjoyed having intercourse with boys.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3178360756693352102010-10-18T23:05:35.883+03:002010-10-18T23:05:35.883+03:00"I'm not "selectively quoting source..."I'm not "selectively quoting sources"."<br /><br />You're only quoting those sources which only support your side of the argument, while ignoring those sources which contradict whatever you have to say. <br /><br />"Diodorus Siculus wrote for a Greek and Roman audience and expressed incredulity at what was reported to be a Celtic practice. If it was "ok" to be gay in his audience or to actually prefer sleeping with men than with women, then the Celtic practice would not seem bizarre at all as he makes it out to be."<br /><br />Diodorus was a Roman era Greek who may have embraced the Roman's greater aversion to homosexuality, or was maybe reacting to the Celtic lack of self-restraint in sexual matters.<br /><br />Listen, I'm not denying that homosexuality may have been problematic for some writers. All I'm saying is that the ancient Greeks expressed a diversity of opinion about homosexuality, some saying it was "ok" and others disagreeing with it. However, there was no consensus on whether being gay was "ok" or not "ok," as you put it. For example, the 4th century Greek Stoic philosopher Zeno said:<br /><br />"Do not make invidious comparisons between gay and nongay, male and female." <br /><br />"Penetrate the thighs of a beloved child no more and no less than those of a non-beloved child, and neither those of a female any more or any less than those of a male. Since what is fitting and appropriate for a beloved child is not different, but the same, as for a non-beloved child, and for females no differently than for males."Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73544566184379633032010-10-18T22:42:16.855+03:002010-10-18T22:42:16.855+03:00"Again, you are conflating ancient Greek &quo..."Again, you are conflating ancient Greek "eros" with homosexuality. Aeschines is condemning both prostitution (hiring for money) and sex ("licentiousness") in that relationship."<br /><br />Wrong, "licentiousness" merely referred to Timarchus' spendthrift lifestyle as a male concubine. The Greek notion of chastity was one of self-restraint, not sexual abstinence.<br /><br />"Indeed, and a handful of peoples (Boiotians, Eleans, and Cretans) are usually the ones referred to as approving of the practice."<br /><br />Yet throughout most of ancient Greece, there were no laws against pederasty or male prostitution, except as it related to political office. Again, my point was to merely emphasize that there was a diversity of opinion on the subject, not a climate of general disapproval as you falsely claim.<br /><br />"Are you saying that the Spartans were the only warlike Greeks, and Aristotle had to go outside the Greek world to find an example of a warlike race that openly (fanerw=s) esteem (tetimh/kasi) "male loves"?"<br /><br />The Spartans were the most warlike Greeks. But this quotation is beside the point, as nowhere in his writings does Aristotle ever condemn homosexuality; he even admits that homosexuality cannot be considered a vice.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15526596124423012822010-10-18T22:21:31.740+03:002010-10-18T22:21:31.740+03:00"You are being too general."
No, I'..."You are being too general." <br /><br />No, I'm not. I'm merely highlighting the fact that the ancient Greek attitude towards homosexuality was far more complex than a mere attitude of "general disapproval."<br /><br />"Some Greeks approved of "chaste eros" between members of the same sex which can be hardly called homosexuality in the modern sense."<br /><br />A "sophron eros" didn't necessarily exclude male-male sexual relations, as you wrongly contend. Numerous well-known pederastic relationships, such as that of Patroclus and Achilles, were explicitly homosexual, yet also regarded as chaste.<br /><br />"Some of them saw it as indifferent to be the active participant. None that I know of expressed a view of approval of passive homosexuality."<br /><br />Some of the ancient Greek writers also idealized homosexuality, such as Achilles Tatius. It is true that passive homosexuality was not approved of, but there were many writers who did not necessarily disapprove of passive homosexuality as well, such as Aristotle and pseudo-Aristotle.<br /><br />"Pseudo-Lucian was a Roman age writer of unknown identity who wrote in Greek. Your notion that he was Greek is not really supported."<br /><br />Hello? He was a Greek author who wrote in Greek in order to address a Greek-speaking audience. Your objection is beside the point. The existence of other Greek authors who idealized homosexuality, such as Achilles Tatius, indicates that there were many Greeks who approved of pederastic relations.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21217174386215638302010-10-18T12:51:04.116+03:002010-10-18T12:51:04.116+03:00Some Greeks approved of homosexuality, whereas oth...<i>Some Greeks approved of homosexuality, whereas others did not</i><br /><br />You are being too general. Some Greeks approved of "chaste eros" between members of the same sex which can be hardly called homosexuality in the modern sense. Some of them saw it as indifferent to be the active participant. None that I know of expressed a view of approval of passive homosexuality.<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>Some ancient Greek writers, such as Pseudo-Lucian, even praised and idealized homosexuality:</i><br /><br />Pseudo-Lucian was a Roman age writer of unknown identity who wrote in Greek. Your notion that he was Greek is not really supported.<br /> <br /><i>The distinction which I draw is this: to be in love with those who are beautiful and chaste is the experience of a kind-hearted and generous soul; but to hire for money and to indulge in licentiousness is the act of a man who is wanton and ill-bred.</i><br /><br />Again, you are conflating ancient Greek "eros" with homosexuality. Aeschines is condemning both prostitution (hiring for money) and sex ("licentiousness") in that relationship.<br /><br /><i>This clearly ignores the fact that even Xenophon recognized that there was a diversity of opinion concerning homosexuality in ancient Greece:</i><br /><br />Indeed, and a handful of peoples (Boiotians, Eleans, and Cretans) are usually the ones referred to as approving of the practice. <br /><br /><i> Aristotle is only speaking of war-like races, which didn't include most other Greeks.</i><br /><br />Are you saying that the Spartans were the only warlike Greeks, and Aristotle had to go outside the Greek world to find an example of a warlike race that openly (fanerw=s) esteem (tetimh/kasi) "male loves"?<br /><br /><i>Again, you're selectively quoting sources that only support your false opinions on the subject.</i><br /><br />I'm not "selectively quoting sources". Diodorus Siculus wrote for a Greek and Roman audience and expressed incredulity at what was reported to be a Celtic practice. If it was "ok" to be gay in his audience or to actually prefer sleeping with men than with women, then the Celtic practice would not seem bizarre at all as he makes it out to be.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59849549043296992632010-10-18T05:19:00.210+03:002010-10-18T05:19:00.210+03:00cont...
Nowhere does Aristotle ever speak of homo...cont...<br /><br />Nowhere does Aristotle ever speak of homosexuality as a vice.<br /><br />"Diodorus Siculus too is incredulous that Celtic men slept shamelessly with each other even though they had fine women in their country. Whether or not these stereotypes about Celts were true or not is irrelevant, as, by contrast, they reflect on negative Greek attitudes on the subject." <br /><br />Again, you're selectively quoting sources that only support your false opinions on the subject. Some Greeks approved of homosexuality, whereas others did not. Some ancient Greek writers, such as Pseudo-Lucian, even praised and idealized homosexuality:<br /><br />Marriage is a boon and a blessing to men when it meets with good fortune, while the love of boys, that pays court to the hallowed dues of friendship, I consider to be the privilege only of philosophy. Therefore all men should marry, but let only the wise be permitted to love boys, for perfect virtue grows least of all among women.<br /><br />P.S. I hope I didn't double-post too much. I was having some trouble posting earlier.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60396014812908284422010-10-18T05:17:20.637+03:002010-10-18T05:17:20.637+03:00"As for homosexuality, the general Greek atti..."As for homosexuality, the general Greek attitude is one of disapproval." <br /><br />No, the ancient Greek attitude towards homosexuality was ambiguous, to say the least, with some approving of homosexuality and others disapproving of it.<br /><br />"This is made evident e.g., by Aristotle citing the "Celts" as openly approving of male loves. If a large portion of Greeks approved of male loves, then why would he invoke the exotic Celts to make his point?" <br /><br />You really need to stop quoting passages out of context. Aristotle is only speaking of war-like races, which didn't include most other Greeks. Otherwise, he also noted that some Greek city-states openly approved of homosexuality:<br /><br />Now the Cretan arrangements for the public mess-tables are better than the Spartan [...] and the lawgiver has devised many wise measures to secure the benefit of moderation at table, and the segregation of the women in order that they may not bear many children, for which purpose he instituted association with the male sex... <br /><br />cont...Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12489689404505260292010-10-18T05:16:10.629+03:002010-10-18T05:16:10.629+03:00"Just a little addendum from the Symposium of..."Just a little addendum from the Symposium of Xenophon (8,34). Xenophon was a 5th-4th c. Athenian and clearly contrasts Theban with Athenian attitudes towards pederasty."<br /><br />This clearly ignores the fact that even Xenophon recognized that there was a diversity of opinion concerning homosexuality in ancient Greece:<br /><br />The other Greeks either do as the Boeotians do, where man and boy are joined as couples and live together, or like the Eleans, who get to enjoy the charms of boys by making them grateful; there are also those who wholly prevent boy-lovers from conversing with boys. [13] But Lycurgus' views were opposed to all of these: [...] if on the other hand someone seemed to lust after a boy's body, he laid down that this was the most shameful of all things and that in Lacedaemonia boy-lovers should keep their hands off boys [...] [14] It does not however surprise me that certain people do not believe this: in most of the Greek cities, the laws do not oppose mens' desire for boys.<br /><br />cont...Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69161731799444632102010-10-18T05:15:04.771+03:002010-10-18T05:15:04.771+03:00Well, thanks for responding to my comment. The rea...Well, thanks for responding to my comment. The reason why I didn't go into too much detail was because I didn't think you would respond to my remarks, like so many other bloggers. Anyway, allow me to respond.<br /><br />"The Athenians had laws to protect children and proscribed the death penalty to those who had sex with children.<br /><br />You are of course wrong (but I won't waste too much time, since you offer no actual facts or arguments)."<br /><br />No, you're the one who hasn't any legitimate arguments. The purpose of the aforementioned passage was <br />to condemn the sexual exploitation of boys, which according to Aeschines, included pandering ("and surely he who hires, outrages"), in an attempt to bar Timarchus from serving in office because of his previous history as a catamite. Otherwise, even Aeschines admitted to being a homosexual pederast, however, unlike Timarchus, he did it for love, rather than money:<br /><br />The distinction which I draw is this: to be in love with those who are beautiful and chaste is the experience of a kind-hearted and generous soul; but to hire for money and to indulge in licentiousness is the act of a man who is wanton and ill-bred.<br /><br />cont...Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26580152534780590962010-10-18T05:13:21.632+03:002010-10-18T05:13:21.632+03:00I don't get it. I keep getting a message after...I don't get it. I keep getting a message after posting. I guess my comment is too long. I'll try again. I hope I'm not double posting:<br /><br />Well, thanks for responding to my comment. The reason why I didn't go into too much detail was because I didn't think you would respond to my remarks, like so many other bloggers. Anyway, allow me to respond.<br /><br />"The Athenians had laws to protect children and proscribed the death penalty to those who had sex with children.<br /><br />You are of course wrong (but I won't waste too much time, since you offer no actual facts or arguments)."<br /><br />No, you're the one who hasn't any legitimate arguments. The purpose of the aforementioned passage was <br />to condemn the sexual exploitation of boys, which according to Aeschines, included pandering ("and surely he who hires, outrages"), in an attempt to bar Timarchus from serving in office because of his previous history as a catamite. Otherwise, even Aeschines admitted to being a homosexual pederast, however, unlike Timarchus, he did it for love, rather than money:<br /><br />The distinction which I draw is this: to be in love with those who are beautiful and chaste is the experience of a kind-hearted and generous soul; but to hire for money and to indulge in licentiousness is the act of a man who is wanton and ill-bred.<br /><br /><br />"Just a little addendum from the Symposium of Xenophon (8,34). Xenophon was a 5th-4th c. Athenian and clearly contrasts Theban with Athenian attitudes towards pederasty."<br /><br />This clearly ignores the fact that even Xenophon recognized that there was a diversity of opinion concerning homosexuality in ancient Greece:<br /><br />The other Greeks either do as the Boeotians do, where man and boy are joined as couples and live together, or like the Eleans, who get to enjoy the charms of boys by making them grateful; there are also those who wholly prevent boy-lovers from conversing with boys. [13] But Lycurgus' views were opposed to all of these: [...] if on the other hand someone seemed to lust after a boy's body, he laid down that this was the most shameful of all things and that in Lacedaemonia boy-lovers should keep their hands off boys [...] [14] It does not however surprise me that certain people do not believe this: in most of the Greek cities, the laws do not oppose mens' desire for boys.<br /><br />cont...Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53788288064085605832010-10-18T05:07:57.848+03:002010-10-18T05:07:57.848+03:00cont...
"Diodorus Siculus too is incredulous...cont...<br /><br />"Diodorus Siculus too is incredulous that Celtic men slept shamelessly with each other even though they had fine women in their country. Whether or not these stereotypes about Celts were true or not is irrelevant, as, by contrast, they reflect on negative Greek attitudes on the subject." <br /><br />Again, you're selectively quoting sources that only support your false opinions on the subject. Some Greeks approved of homosexuality, whereas others did not. Some ancient Greek writers, such as Pseudo-Lucian, even praised and idealized homosexuality:<br /><br />Marriage is a boon and a blessing to men when it meets with good fortune, while the love of boys, that pays court to the hallowed dues of friendship, I consider to be the privilege only of philosophy. Therefore all men should marry, but let only the wise be permitted to love boys, for perfect virtue grows least of all among women.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-37866993368780440072010-10-17T11:38:17.153+03:002010-10-17T11:38:17.153+03:00The Athenians had laws to protect children and pro...<i>The Athenians had laws to protect children and proscribed the death penalty to those who had sex with children.</i><br /><br />You are of course wrong (but I won't waste too much time, since you offer no actual facts or arguments).<br /><br />Just a little addendum from the Symposium of Xenophon (8,34). Xenophon was a 5th-4th c. Athenian and clearly contrasts Theban with Athenian attitudes towards pederasty.<br /><br /><i><b>ἐκείνοις</b> μὲν γὰρ ταῦτα <b>νόμιμα</b>, ἡμῖν δ᾽ <b>ἐπονείδιστα</b></i><br /><br />As for homosexuality, the general Greek attitude is one of disapproval. This is made evident e.g., by Aristotle citing the "Celts" as openly approving of male loves. If a large portion of Greeks approved of male loves, then why would he invoke the exotic Celts to make his point? Diodorus Siculus too is incredulous that Celtic men slept shamelessly with each other even though they had fine women in their country. Whether or not these stereotypes about Celts were true or not is irrelevant, as, by contrast, they reflect on negative Greek attitudes on the subject.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47979767277142102572010-10-17T08:13:52.449+03:002010-10-17T08:13:52.449+03:00[i]"The Athenians had laws to protect childre...[i]"The Athenians had laws to protect children and proscribed the death penalty to those who had sex with children. Aeschines' Against Timarchus is a good place to start on the subject. Plato too, whose Symposium is often quoted as celebrating homosexuality, proposes severe measures against it in his Laws."[/i]<br /><br />The Athenians never had any laws against homosexuality or pederasty. Aeschines' Against Timarchus is about male prostitution and has nothing to do with homosexuality. You obviously have never read Aeschines' speech. As to ancient Greek attitudes towards homosexuality, some Greeks approved of it, even enthusiastically, whereas others disapproved of it. You're selective quotations prove nothing.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11624757395301104389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2515818115146601652009-03-27T15:20:00.000+02:002009-03-27T15:20:00.000+02:00I tried to leave a link to your response, but appa...I tried to leave a link to your response, but apparently she's one of <I>those</I> kinds of bloggers.<BR/><BR/>Reading your linked reviews, it's kind of sad. She really isn't kidding about "bluffing her way" as a historian. No wonder she's that insecure about informed debate.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26060068939950272132009-03-26T16:38:00.000+02:002009-03-26T16:38:00.000+02:00Καταρχάς Διηνεκή ΠΟΤΕ μου δεν θέλησα να κάνω δικό ...Καταρχάς Διηνεκή ΠΟΤΕ μου δεν θέλησα να κάνω δικό μου σάιτ.<BR/>Επιπλέον δεν με ενδιαφέρει να σου διώξω κοινό ούτε βέβαια να προσυλητίσω άτομα σε μένα μιας και δεν έχω σάιτ.<BR/>Ο λόγος της κόντρας μας ξεκινάει ΠΟΛΥ ΠΡΙΝ το συγκεκριμένο post.<BR/>Σου είπα πάλι στο παρελθόν ότι εδώ και 4 χρόνια που γράφω στο σάιτ σου ΚΑΙ ΜΟΝΟ (γιατί δεν είμαι κανένας μα'ι'ντανός σαν πολλούς απο εδώ μέσα να το παίζω βεντέτα και να ποστάρω σε 400 σάιτ) σε θεωρώ ΥΠΟΔΕΙΓΜΑ σε πολλά θέματα.<BR/>Το πρόβλημα είναι ότι εδώ και 1,5 χρόνο χωρίς λόγο ΟΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΠΩ ΜΕ ΒΡΙΖΕΙΣ και μου επιτίθεσαι!<BR/>Αυτό συμπίπτει με την πρώτη κόντρα που είχαμε για τους πρωτο-Ι.Ε.<BR/>Απο τότε οι αναίτιες επιθέσεις σου με ξάφνιαζαν αλλά και με μείωναν!<BR/>Τι να πρωτοθυμηθώ;<BR/><BR/><BR/>Το ότι μου είπες πως η Γενετική δεν είναι το φόρτε μου και ότι το Google δεν είναι...καλός οδηγός για να αποκτήσω γνώσεις;<BR/>Το ότι έλεγες αυτά ενώ δεν είχες καν καταλάβει τι έλεγα στο θέμα με την εξάπλωση του Y-DNA I haplogroup και τους Γκραβέττιους;<BR/><BR/>Το ότι ενώ έχεις αναρτήσει ολόκληρο θέμα με τους Καθηγητές Πανεπιστημίου στις ΗΠΑ και την εργασία τους για την επιροή του Εβρα'ι'κ'ού Λόμπυ εκεί, εμένα μου επιτέθηκες χαρακτηρίζοντας με Αντισημίτη όταν μίλησα για τον ρόλο που παίζουν κάποια ΜΜΕ Εβραικών συμφερόντων στις ΗΠΑ σε ένα άλλο post;<BR/><BR/>Το ότι μου λες πως υποστηρίζω την θεωρία Κουργκάν για πολιτκούς λόγους και έτσι προσπαθήσεις να με μειώσεις επιχειρηματολογικά;<BR/>Μάλιστα λες πως όλοι οι White Nationalists είναι "εντεταλμένοι" οπαδοί της θεωρίας Κουργκάν και αγνοείς<BR/>α) το ότι ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ το White Nationalism κίνημα ενιαίο. Το Στορμφρόντ που αναφέρεις πολλές φορές, είναι ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΙΚΟ προτεσταντικό και το ίδιο και η ΚΚΚ, τα "Aryan Nations", κ.α.<BR/>Δεν έχουν σχέση αυτοί με τον Colin Jordan, τον Roger Pearson, τον David Lane και τον νεο-Εθνικοσοσιαλισμό!<BR/>Επομένως γιατί τους βάζεις όλους στο ίδιο καλάθι;<BR/>Αλλά και γιατί παίρνει η μπάλα και μένα με αυτούς μαζί;<BR/>Έχει σχέση αδερφέ ο βλάκας ο Arthur Kemp με τον Εθνικοσοσιαλισμό;<BR/>Κολητός του Stormfront είναι!!<BR/>Δεν τον έχει καλέσει ΠΟΤΕ κανένας φορέας Ε/Σ σε συναντήσεις του!<BR/>Επομένως γιατί παρουσιάζεις τις θέσεις του ως ευρύτερα White Nationalist αλλά και γιατί συγχέεις ένα ολόκληρο κίνημα διάφορο Ιδεολογικά με τους Εθνικιστές Προτεστάντες;<BR/><BR/>β) Την θεωρία Κουργκάν ΔΕΝ ΤΗΝ ΣΥΜΠΑΘΟΥΝ πολλοί απο τους W/N ακριβώς για τον λόγο που και πολλοί ΈΛληνες δεν την συμπαθούν!<BR/>Επειδή αποκλείει τις πατρίδες τους ως πρωτο-πατρίδα των Ι.Ε.<BR/><BR/>γ) Εγώ παρέχω στοιχεία για την θεωρία και δεν αερολογώ.<BR/>Επομένως γιατί μου λες π.χ. ότι η αιτία που μου επιτέθηκες είναι η χρησιμοποίηση άρθρου της Wikipedia και ότι δεν είπα απο που το πήρα;<BR/>ΜΑ ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΔΙΚΟ ΤΗΣ ΤΟ ΑΡΘΡΟ!<BR/>Ανέφερα τις πηγές των γραφομένων μου!<BR/>Επομένως;<BR/>Εσύ όταν βρίσκεις κάποιο άρθρο αναφέρεις αν το βρήκες μέσω περιοδικού, τηλεόρασης, ίντερνετ, e-mail, κ.τ.λ.;<BR/>Όχι βέβαια!<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Άλλοτε πάλι μου επιτέθηκες ξανά προσωπικά όταν σου είπα πως το mtDNA του Ταφικού Κύκλου Β των Μυκηνών (όπως και η φυσική ανθρωπολογία) δεν δείχνουν Μεσογειακή καταγωγή!<BR/>Τότε ξανά έθιξες την αξιοπιστία μου αναίτια!<BR/><BR/>Μετά λέω πως πολλοί επιστήμονες παίζουν κυριολεκτικά με το οστά και τους σκελετούς ανθρώπων μόνο και μόνο για να αποκτήσουν φήμη και το αναφέρω αυτό στο post με τις μούμιες του Ταρίμ!<BR/>Όταν είπα ότι κατα την γνώμη μου είναι ασέβεια στους νεκρούς να χτίζει κανείς την φήμη του πάνω στα κουφάρια τους, μου απαντάς:<BR/>«Αυτό που είναι ασέβεια είναι η άγνοια σου»!!!<BR/><BR/>Όταν αλλού πάλι έκανα κριτική στον Drews αλλά και στον Renfrew μου επιτέθηκες σκαιώ τω τρόπω λέγοντας πως είμαι προπέτης και φερέικος και ότι οι επιθέσεις μου είναι προ’ι’όν προκατάληψης!!!<BR/><BR/>ΓΙΑ ΚΑΤΣΕ ΒΡΕ ΣΥΜΠΑΤΡΙΩΤΗ!!!<BR/><BR/>Εσύ θες δηλαδή να δέχομαι υποτιμήσεις και χαρακτηρισμούς και να μην αντιδράω;<BR/><BR/>Όταν λέει κάποιος κάτι με το οποίο δεν συμφωνείς, πρέπει εσύ αυτόκλητα να τον χλευάζεις και να του φέρεσαι με ιταμό τρόπο;<BR/>Εδώ ακόμα και όταν ΣΕ ΥΠΟΣΤΗΡΙΞΑ πάλι μου επιτέθηκες!<BR/>Μιλάω για το post εκείνο που ένας ομοφυλόφιλος σε ένα γκάλοπ που ανάρτησες σου είπε γιατί έχεις μόνο άντρες και γυναίκες να ψηφίζουν και ότι αυτός παρότι...άντρας ένιωθε πολύ...θηλυκό και δεν ήξερε τι να επιλέξει.<BR/>Τον ρώτησα τι εννοεί «θηλυκό» και εσύ αντί να με στηρίξεις, μου την είπες κιόλας!!!<BR/>Μου είπες «άνοιξε κανένα λεξικό να δεις τι σημαίνει»!!!<BR/>ΕΛΕΟΣ!<BR/><BR/>Μετά λοιπόν πως θες να μην πιστέψω ότι μου επιτίθεσαι για τις Ιδέες μου;<BR/><BR/>Λες ότι έκανα σαν τρολ στον Greenhil!<BR/>Μα τι του είπα;<BR/>ΤΙΠΟΤΑ!<BR/>Το σχόλιο μου αφορούσε την χρονολόγηση και μόνο της πρωτο-Ι.Ε. με την Μπαγεσιανή μέθοδο!<BR/>Αυτό μόνο.<BR/>Έπρεπε να με πει κομπασμένο;<BR/>Εγώ την μέθοδο έκρινα ΜΟΝΟ όσον αφορά την εφαρμογή της στο θέμα των πρωτο-Ι.Ε.<BR/>Γιατί μου επιτέθηκε προσωπικά;<BR/>Και μετά σαν να μην έφτανε αυτό με είπες και βλάχο αλλά και ασυνάρτητο εσύ απο πάνω!!!<BR/>Γιατί;<BR/>Επειδή του είπα ότι φέρεται με την τυπική Αγγλοσαξωνική αλαζονία;<BR/>Εδώ σου λέω έχουν ΑΚΟΥΣΤΕΙ ΤΕΡΑΤΑ στο σάιτ σου, το δικό μου αυτό σχόλιο σε πείραξε;<BR/><BR/>Για δες σχόλια του Dragonhorse, jarjar, Armenian Phalanxe, Clara, Cerdic, και άλλων πολλών να δεις τι λένε!!<BR/><BR/>Το ξέρεις πολύ καλά πως στο σάιτ σου έχουν βρίσει την Μακεδονία, την Ελλάδα, εσένα, εμένα, ΤΗΝ ΟΙΚΟΓΕΝΕΙΑ ΜΟΥ, ΤΟΥΣ ΓΟΝΕΙΣ ΜΟΥ και άλλους πολλούς αλλά και εσένα σε έχουν προσβάλει ΧΩΡΙΣ ΝΑ ΚΑΝΕΙΣ ΤΙΠΟΤΑ!<BR/>Δες π.χ. παρακάτω πως σου μιλάει ο Richard και όμως δεν του λες τίποτα: <BR/><BR/>http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/10/genetic-structure-in-northern-europe.html<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Άρα δεν σε πείραξε η στάση μου φίλε μου!<BR/>Κάτι άλλο σε πειράζει!<BR/>Και νομίζω πως έχει βάση αυτό που σου είπα!<BR/>Σε ενοχλεί πως η θεωρία Κουργκάν και οι πρωτο-Ι.Ε. δεν ταιριάζουν στα πρότυπα που έχεις εσύ τα ιδεολογικοθρησκευτικά αλλά και τα πολιτικά!<BR/>Δεν γίνεται φίλε μου να κάνεις κριτική μόνο εναντίον του Kemp, του Earlson, κ.τ.λ. ενώ δεν λες τίποτα για τους Νικολούτσι, Μπόεφ, Σέρτζι, Πουλιανό, κ.τ.λ.<BR/>Πως γίνεται στην προσπάθεια σου υποτίθεται να στηλιτεύσεις τα κακώς κείμενα στην ανθρωπολογία, στην αρχαιολογία, κ.τ.λ. να κάνεις μόνο κριτική στους Νορδικιστές;<BR/>Οι άλλοι δεν έιναι υπόλογοι;<BR/>Δεν είναι αντιεπιστημονικοί;<BR/>Δεν ΕΣΚΕΜΜΕΝΑ παραπληροφορούν;<BR/>Άρα;<BR/>Μετά πως κατηγορείς εμένα βρε Διηνεκή για αβανταδόρο και για προκατηλειμένο;<BR/>Και πως μιλάς για αντίληψη και ισηγορία μετά;<BR/>Απο κει λοιπόν συμπέρανα γιατί είναι εχθρική η στάση σου σε μένα!<BR/>Γιατί υποστηρίζω κάτι που δεν κολάει με την εικόνα που έχεις εσύ για τον Ελληνισμό και τους πρωτο-Ι.Ε.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ακόμα και έτσι όμως δικαιολογείται να μου σβήνεις τα σχόλια;<BR/>Δηλαδή ο κόπος μου δεν σου λέει τίποτα;<BR/>Με βάζεις στην ίδια μοίρα με τον Charlie Brass και τον Thought!<BR/>Γιατί συμπατριώτη;<BR/>Επειδή δεν συμφωνώ με σένα στα Ι.Ε. θέματα;<BR/>Εδώ έχουν βρίσει ΣΚΑΙΟΤΑΤΑ όπως σου είπα παραπάνω άτομα και εμένα αλλά και εσένα (βλέπε jarjar, Richard, Cerdic, κ.α.) και δεν τους είπες το παραμικρό!<BR/>Είναι αιτία το ότι χαρακτήρισα ως αλαζονικό τον Simon να με πεις βλάχο και με σκιαγραφήσεις ως ασυνάρτητο;<BR/><BR/><BR/>Κλείνοντας θέλω να σου πω πως σήμερα δεν σου έγραψα για να σε πικάρω!<BR/>Απλά για να δεις πόσο άσχημα είναι να σου σβήνουν δικτατορικά την φωνή μέσω της απόσυρσης των σχολίων ενώ δεν συντρέχει λόγος!<BR/>Έτσι ένιωσα και εγώ όπως ένιωσες εσύ με την Dorothy.<BR/>Με την διαφορά όμως ότι εσύ δεν συνέτρεξες με τα σχόλια σου το σάιτ της για 4 χρόνια δείχνοντας την εκτίμηση σου σε αυτήν.<BR/>Στα Ελληνικά σου έγραψα γιατί δεν θέλω να καταλαβαίνουν οι πολλοί τι λέμε.<BR/>Σκέφτηκα να σου στείλω e-mail αλλά με πρόλαβε η σημερινή μέρα.<BR/>Δεν θα σε ξαναενοχλήσω αν το θες να γίνει έτσι και σβήσε και αυτό το σχόλιο αν θες.<BR/>Όμως θα ήθελα έστω να το διαβάσεις μεθοδικά και να το συλλογιστείς.<BR/>Θα ήθελα έστω να ακούσω και την δική σου θέση στις παραπάνω εκτιμήσεις μου.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9656603568920055302009-03-26T14:22:00.000+02:002009-03-26T14:22:00.000+02:00YOUR INCAPABILITY TO FACE ME IN THE INDOEUROPEAN I...<I>YOUR INCAPABILITY TO FACE ME IN THE INDOEUROPEAN ISSUE!</I><BR/><BR/>You were banned for <A HREF="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/01/bayesian-phylogenetics-of-languages-and.html" REL="nofollow">specific reasons</A><BR/><BR/>But if you think you have a strong argument that deserves to be heard, by all means, start your own blog or website and do the hard work of attracting an audience instead of piggybacking on mine.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76863287637194348502009-03-26T14:06:00.000+02:002009-03-26T14:06:00.000+02:00Hahaha!You act like a child bucko!!!It's bad when ...Hahaha!<BR/><BR/>You act like a child bucko!!!<BR/>It's bad when someone is erasing your comments for no reason, ah?<BR/>Well you did the same to me!<BR/>NO, SORRY!<BR/>YOU HAD A REASON!<BR/>YOUR INCAPABILITY TO FACE ME IN THE INDOEUROPEAN ISSUE!<BR/>AND YOUR FEAR THAT I WILL UNCOVER YOUR TRUE THEOCRATIC, CHAUVINIST ETHNOCENTRIC PROFILE!<BR/>Hahahaha!<BR/>You make me laugh!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65497976420876057132009-03-26T14:00:00.000+02:002009-03-26T14:00:00.000+02:00Dude, how many times do I have to tell you that yo...Dude, how many times do I have to tell you that you are not welcome here? Go start your own blog and write whatever you want.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91341413197743348632009-03-26T13:55:00.000+02:002009-03-26T13:55:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53830132891260184082009-03-26T13:45:00.000+02:002009-03-26T13:45:00.000+02:00Antigonos, if it wasn't clear already, you are not...Antigonos, if it wasn't clear already, you are not allowed to post comments on this site.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72728931824934906732009-03-26T13:43:00.000+02:002009-03-26T13:43:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44476421053907613832009-03-26T13:24:00.000+02:002009-03-26T13:24:00.000+02:00Antigonos said:Sounds familiar?Nice feeling, ah?We...Antigonos said:<BR/><BR/><I>Sounds familiar?<BR/>Nice feeling, ah?</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I didn't act like a troll on her blog like you did on mine...<BR/><BR/>And, I think I was clear that you are banned from this site.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52403425940771815792009-03-26T12:56:00.000+02:002009-03-26T12:56:00.000+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781621903358782011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77107029795641960102009-03-25T20:35:00.000+02:002009-03-25T20:35:00.000+02:00Don't argue with me, Dienekes. I am not arguing wi...<I>Don't argue with me, Dienekes. </I><BR/><BR/>I am not arguing with you, since you made no argument.<BR/><BR/>As for Paul Cartledge, I have already stated why (unlike him) I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of Xenophon's account. People can examine the evidence, and judge for themselves.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com