tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2774899839764927891..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Geography and Genetic structure in Europe (again)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24614437203065847472008-09-28T23:10:00.000+03:002008-09-28T23:10:00.000+03:00MCG; "One other comment on the Finns. My wife is ...MCG; "One other comment on the Finns. My wife is full-blooded Finn. All four grandparents born in Finland. She has some of the problems pure(?) Finns have; among which is a type of anemia which affects about 15% of the population. Additionally, her blood type is B-, which is fairly rare in western europe.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the reference but I read somewhere that a significant part of the male population was wiped out at one time (probably by the Tatars?); It was a linguistic paper and pointed out that the children of the invaders were raised by the Finnish mothers and no language discontinuity was observed! I believe there are two basic ethnic groups in Finland, the Taditch (sp), and the Swede-Finns. I would expect their Y chromosome should reflect some of this???"<BR/><BR/>I am Finn and never heard about this anemia. <BR/><BR/>About one third of Finns have HG I1 and almost two parts have N1. The most widespread Mitochondrial Hg is H. <BR/><BR/>Male Finns genetic age is about 2000-2500 years, calculated by TMRCA value. I think it is result from the colonization of Finland. When speaking about Finn's little genetic variance we look autosomal dna and by it we cannot define the population age. Younger geographic population may have more genetic variance than older one, depemding on how big was the population in the begining.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1493206966285671492008-09-28T22:45:00.000+03:002008-09-28T22:45:00.000+03:00"The only Finn sampled probably had some Swedish a..."The only Finn sampled probably had some Swedish admixture, and due to a lack of other Finns, who would most likely be closer to the Latvian and pull him that way, he's sought refuge to the closest larger sample that shared most markers with him (ie. Scandinavians)".<BR/><BR/>Not necessarily. Finns have main two genetic heredity. This issue is very poor understood generally. To be pedantic the baltian heredity has represented only by one group from three, the other are eastern and western. <BR/><BR/>There is one big confusion in many researches and the eastern part has much gained, because all researches uses governemental distribution instead of trying to find real geographic results for genetic distribution. As some earlier said for instance line from west to east, to almost pure eastern areas as Kuusamo and Kainuu have count to the west. This is only result from indolence and use big county hospitals in collecting samples.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49197354032714895782008-09-04T14:46:00.000+03:002008-09-04T14:46:00.000+03:00I read a comment on rootsweb by Ann Cousins re: th...I read a comment on rootsweb by Ann Cousins re: this work. She states that this is a very early chip, nothing like DeCodeme for example. It does include a very small number of Y SNP's though. Newer packages contain more Y SNP's and are more tailored to popgen questions. It looks like we will be seeing more papers of this ilk in the future as researchers learn to use the larger chips and can tailor them to specific applications/questions?<BR/>Health vice popgen will continue to be emphasized because that's where the funding is.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67628896426955778862008-09-03T08:37:00.000+03:002008-09-03T08:37:00.000+03:00Given how these graphs react to extremes, I think ...Given how these graphs react to extremes, I think one could learn a lot more by doing geographically isolated groups and then <I>removing</I> certain principal components.<BR/><BR/>Say, you are interested in figuring out central European relationships and the impact of either including or excluding a slav component. In that case, I would first look at what signifies Iberian (by concentrating on, say, Spain, Portugal, southern France, western Switzerland, and north-western Italy), and then <I>subtracting</I> that component from all data. Likewise with Sami, Turkish, and southern Mediterranean components, if necessary. Then, with what is left (and, hopefully, more data points from south-east central Europe), it would be easier to see, e.g., if there is more than one important central European component (besides a putative post glacial spread from southern France, and later Slavic migrations).<BR/><BR/>Similarly, other questions could be better addressed by first excluding minority outlier components.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79009300203576184112008-09-03T05:38:00.000+03:002008-09-03T05:38:00.000+03:00"Slavs spawned from Ukraine, it seems now."Most li..."Slavs spawned from Ukraine, it seems now."<BR/><BR/>Most likely.<BR/><BR/>But it's hard to make firm conclusions based on a PC plot with such small samples for Eastern Europe.<BR/><BR/>IMO when more Finnic and Baltic samples are included, the Russians will break away from the Poles.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50640274927631488812008-09-03T05:36:00.000+03:002008-09-03T05:36:00.000+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44720135553562706022008-09-02T20:35:00.000+03:002008-09-02T20:35:00.000+03:00What DNA is the paper referring to? I assume it is...<I>What DNA is the paper referring to? I assume it is either mtDNA or Y-DNA. I doubt that this would be a sampling of autosomal DNA.</I><BR/><BR/>It is autosomal DNA, that is what "genotyped with the Affymetrix 500K chip" means. It's one of several standarized systems of testing nuclear DNA. Would it be haploid DNA, they would be looking for defining SNPs along genealogical branches. <BR/><BR/><I>Slavs spread eastward into what is now Russia from eastern Europe. So it shouldn't be surprising that Russians have a western bias...</I><BR/><BR/>They do not in that graph. They are the "easternmost" plural (+/- representative) sample in their quadrant. <BR/><BR/>Slavs spawned from Ukraine, it seems now. <BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/><I>We are looking at the analysis of autosomal data. What is this supposed to tell us?</I><BR/><BR/>Overall genetic affinities. It makes no intention of assuring wether these are neutral or adaptative markers. And logically it tends to become homogeneous over time in physical and culturally contiguous regions (due to recombination, "reshuffling", with every generation).<BR/><BR/><I>I still happen to believe that the Irish/Scottish tribes all can trace their origins to Iberia?? This presentation is not disputing that(?) but is presenting the present constituency of different regions of Europe in a different manner.</I><BR/><BR/>This presentation may be missing much locally important stuff. They should only plot populations for which the PC+PC2>50% (i.e. clearly meaningful), but that would leave the graph nearly blank. <BR/><BR/>But from other studies (again Bauchet'07) it does not seem that Irish cluster better with Iberians than with Central/North Europeans. What strongly suggest (specially Ireland being an island, and hence somewhat isolated) that the main component of Irish (as well as Brits) is from Central Europe. They do show some relevant Iberian or Basque components anyhow but not enough to change the previous conclussion. <BR/><BR/>This doesn't mean that maybe at sufficient depth of analysis an Irish-specific or even maybe "Atlantic" component would not appear. It is possible but so far it has not been detected. <BR/><BR/>Personally I understand that these homogeneity sets (as seen by K-means clustering) reflect the Late UP/Epipaleolithic reality and therefore I would rather expect an Italian-specific component much before an Irish-specific one.<BR/><BR/><I>I don't have the reference but I read somewhere that a significant part of the male population was wiped out at one time (probably by the Tatars?);</I><BR/><BR/>That surely means that Finns have a strong founder effect, specially on the male side, most of whose lineages appear to be ultimately original from Siberia (haplogropup N). Nothing to do with Tatars anyhow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53430004448867885272008-09-02T20:05:00.000+03:002008-09-02T20:05:00.000+03:00One other comment on the Finns. My wife is full-b...One other comment on the Finns. My wife is full-blooded Finn. All four grandparents born in Finland. She has some of the problems pure(?) Finns have; among which is a type of anemia which affects about 15% of the population. Additionally, her blood type is B-, which is fairly rare in western europe.<BR/><BR/>I don't have the reference but I read somewhere that a significant part of the male population was wiped out at one time (probably by the Tatars?); It was a linguistic paper and pointed out that the children of the invaders were raised by the Finnish mothers and no language discontinuity was observed! I believe there are two basic ethnic groups in Finland, the Taditch (sp), and the Swede-Finns. I would expect their Y chromosome should reflect some of this???McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38692812197499118592008-09-02T15:02:00.000+03:002008-09-02T15:02:00.000+03:00Slavs spread eastward into what is now Russia from...<I>Slavs spread eastward into what is now Russia from eastern Europe. So it shouldn't be surprising that Russians have a western bias</I><BR/><BR/>That is a very good point.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10123807401882385952008-09-02T14:28:00.000+03:002008-09-02T14:28:00.000+03:00I must be missing something here in this paper and...I must be missing something here in this paper and the recent one reporting similar data. We are looking at the analysis of autosomal data. What is this supposed to tell us? I understand the Y Chromosome and I believe I can trace its evolution as it has had STR mutations. I still happen to believe that the Irish/Scottish tribes all can trace their origins to Iberia?? This presentation is not disputing that(?) but is presenting the present constituency of different regions of Europe in a different manner. To me it is saying that after a period of time, maybe hundreds or even thousands of years, the autosomal characteristics of the inhabitants tend to "mix up" such that they all appear similar to each other - "by this measurement". Is this primarily female driven by mitochondrial DNA transmission down the line?? Certainly, different "races", tend to physically resemble each other? Is that what this study is saying??<BR/><BR/>I would like a little explanation here of what this study is basically saying? thanks in advanceMcGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10117906040618806212008-09-02T12:58:00.000+03:002008-09-02T12:58:00.000+03:00What DNA is the paper referring to? I assume it is...What DNA is the paper referring to? I assume it is either mtDNA or Y-DNA. I doubt that this would be a sampling of autosomal DNA.<BR/><BR/>Only one person sampled in Slovakia? It used to be part of the Austria-Hungary Empire, which included northern Italy in its heyday. So obviously more samples from Slovakia are needed.<BR/><BR/>Slavs spread eastward into what is now Russia from eastern Europe. So it shouldn't be surprising that Russians have a western bias, unless the samples come from a prehistoric Finnish strain that was there first.<BR/><BR/>R1a1 trends in a southeast - northwest axis with Norway at the northwest.just passing byhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723439904031507276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32839416869219536892008-09-02T10:36:00.000+03:002008-09-02T10:36:00.000+03:00About the Sardinians you have to consider that it ...About the Sardinians you have to consider that it is a people that lived isolated for many centuries. It is people with a strong cultural identity and their mixture with others it is very low. The foreigners always settled only in few cities on the coasts, while the Sardinians have always lived inside the island, for this they has developed very special genetic characteristics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10047395142978684902008-09-02T09:46:00.000+03:002008-09-02T09:46:00.000+03:00West is left here along PC2. No mystery about it.West is left here along PC2. No mystery about it.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32957773301808278462008-09-02T08:48:00.000+03:002008-09-02T08:48:00.000+03:00"Whoops, actually I can see two Polish samples fur..."Whoops, actually I can see two Polish samples further west than the one Finn.<BR/><BR/>I guess we win. LOL"<BR/><BR/>Well if the direction of Hungarians and Checks constitute "west" to you, then maybe...Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57573162178440663412008-09-02T06:26:00.000+03:002008-09-02T06:26:00.000+03:00Oh, and I think it's painfully obvious now that th...<I>Oh, and I think it's painfully obvious now that these PC plots react to who's on them, and in what strength. But unfortuanetly, few people understand this.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! It maps the most widely distributed ancestries, not the most important ones locally. The ones that weight the most at continental level, not in each population. <BR/><BR/>For example this graph surely says little about the Irish, who are actually (as per Bauchet's K-means clustering) dominated by a Central/North European component that is not probably weighted in this case. Their position is surely determined by the peculiar balance among them of three "foreign" components: Northeastern, Northwestern and Southwestern, which are all minoritary among them. It also affects the same way to other populations like Poles, who are also (per Bauchet'07) dominated by the NW component. <BR/><BR/>Instead in the previous Euro PC graph posted by Dienekes some days ago, it was the NW component the one highlighed in PC2, what caused Spaniards to cluster with Italians, as the SW component, dominant among the former, was not weighting.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75012292620128586082008-09-02T06:15:00.000+03:002008-09-02T06:15:00.000+03:00@Crimson: Error 403. Your files (graphs) are not a...@Crimson: Error 403. Your files (graphs) are not accesible because you account lacks of index page (or so it says). <BR/><BR/>The similitude between Italian and Spanish mtDNA must be due to the fact that they are all dominated by haplogroup H. But that's way too common in Europe. <BR/><BR/>As for the Y-DNA, Sardinians are notable for the dominance of two rare clades: I2a2 (M26) and R1b1a. It connects specifically to nowhere AFAIK, except that I2a (mostly as I2a1) is dominant in the Western Balcans, where Cardium Pottery originated or at least "coalesced" before expansion, what strongly suggests that there was some sort of founder effect with the Neolithic colonization. <BR/><BR/>Any similitude in autosomal PC graphs is probably due to locally minor components. In fact, in the graph at this post, that cluster we suspect Sardinian looks extreme in both PCs: as southeastern as Turks or most Italians (PC1) and as western as Spaniards (PC2). This is probably only because the third vertice, the NE component of PC1 is almost totally lacking, significatively more than among Spaniards, who are almost neutral on PC1. <BR/><BR/>The graph actually says nothing more than that. If most populations would be 80% locally specific and 20% of the most widely distributed components, they would still get positioned in that graph, sometimes extremely, even if they are actually 80% out of it.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25742341064335477892008-09-02T04:49:00.000+03:002008-09-02T04:49:00.000+03:00In regards to the British outliers...The one way d...In regards to the British outliers...<BR/><BR/>The one way down south probably has Maltese ancestry, while those near the Poles probably have Polish grandfathers...soldiers or pilots from WWII.<BR/><BR/>And btw, being clearly seperated on these plots doesn't mean no shared ancestry or even not originating from the same population. It might just mean breeding isolation for along time.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and I think it's painfully obvious now that these PC plots react to who's on them, and in what strength. But unfortuanetly, few people understand this.Polakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791738703122670119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58659130587002867292008-09-02T01:38:00.000+03:002008-09-02T01:38:00.000+03:00Dear Dienekes,I posted a comment on an ancient blo...Dear Dienekes,<BR/><BR/>I posted a comment on an ancient blog:<BR/><BR/>http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html<BR/><BR/>I would be very grateful for any comments you would have time to make. Thank you very much in advance,<BR/><BR/>Erik NelsonBismarckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327358474831698560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68284984611210585112008-09-02T01:27:00.000+03:002008-09-02T01:27:00.000+03:00"The applications of this are obvious: criminal or..."The applications of this are obvious: criminal or victim DNA can be pinpointed on the map. The ethnic origin of undocumented persons (e.g. illegal immigrants) can be ascertained with some confidence."<BR/><BR/><BR/>LOL...this doesn't work well in a multiethnic society or one that had considerable past immigration...this such as the UK, Scotland, France, even the Netherlands.<BR/><BR/>I would assume even in certain border areas of Greece this would be sketchy.UncleTomRuckusInGoodWhiteWorldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508650487951730570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16098243134436024452008-09-02T00:39:00.000+03:002008-09-02T00:39:00.000+03:00Yeah, something doesnt make sense. As its not goi...Yeah, something doesnt make sense. As its not going well with history altogether as we know. <BR/><BR/>I was just looking at these charts, according to this one, Sardinians on the Paternal(Y Chromosome)side, are closer to the Spanish:<BR/><BR/>http://racialreality.110mb.com/sicily/index_files/ychromosomes.jpg<BR/><BR/>Nearly same story with the maternal(mtDNA), although not much differences can be seen.<BR/><BR/>http://racialreality.110mb.com/sicily/index_files/mtdna.jpg<BR/><BR/>Autosomes, shows that Sicilians are closer to the Central Spanish and even French, while the Sardinians are more Eastern Mediterranean but still distant from the other groups.<BR/><BR/>http://racialreality.110mb.com/sicily/index_files/autosomes.jpg<BR/><BR/>Alternatively, on these ones from 2005 & 2007, show that Y chromosomes, Sicilians are closer to West Italians and Hungarians, while mtDNA, Sardinians are close to North-East Spain.<BR/><BR/>http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/fallmerayer/mtdna.jpg<BR/><BR/>http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/fallmerayer/ystr.gif<BR/><BR/><BR/>Overall though, Sardinians are a bad bad population to study for some unexplained reason according to geneticists, subject to genetic drift or whatever it is. As they almost always autosomally end up being distinct.Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08259882884691575025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3096448912094412382008-09-02T00:21:00.000+03:002008-09-02T00:21:00.000+03:00@ Jim hValacs lived in east Moravia up to 1600 pre...@ Jim h<BR/><BR/>Valacs lived in east Moravia up to 1600 preserving their customs and their language, before to be defeated by the armies of the Ausburg and the loss of their national identity. I don't know how much the colonization had been strong from Italy, in the age of the roman empire, but perhaps it was more strong I thought. Commercial activity probably attracted a lot of people in the zone. Extraordinary as the cultivation of the grapevine is maintained up to our days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13520087000322407852008-09-01T23:54:00.000+03:002008-09-01T23:54:00.000+03:00@Crimson: I may be missing something but there is ...@Crimson: I may be missing something but there is only one town where Catalan is spoken in Sardinia (Algher or maybe Alghero). I do not exclude there may have been some further settlement in other coastal spots but surely not more than other colonial inputs, like Carthaginian or Roman. <BR/><BR/>Corsica seems to have a different population history. Not sure now about the details (just vague memories right now). <BR/><BR/>Agreed re. Italian and/or Balcanic origins of Neolithic colonization but notice that there may have been important founder effects (they are pretty obvious in the Y-DNA). <BR/><BR/>We do not even know for sure if that cluster is Sardinian (anyone?) but in any case the appearence of it leaning towards the "Iberian" end of the PC2 axis may be a mere mask caused by a locally minor component. It happens too often. <BR/><BR/><I>The Iberians are neatly separated from the British peoples, which I think undermines the theory they were populated by paleo-Iberians or such. British seem closer to some of the French, possibly because of the Gauls.</I><BR/><BR/>Almost agree. Since it became obvious that British and Irish mtDNA was closer to Mid-Western Europe than anywhere else, it became very apparent that the Iberian or Basque hypothesis were at fault. <BR/><BR/>But I would not blame the Gauls as much as the older Paleolithic component from the same area, specially because in Y-DNA the islands appear much more "conservative" (R1b) than the continent (because they suffered much lesser impact from more recent immigration, be it Neolithic or Indoeuropean).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47146617222909234252008-09-01T23:37:00.000+03:002008-09-01T23:37:00.000+03:00Maju, it is time for you to wake up and see the li...<I>Maju, it is time for you to wake up and see the light. The Sardinians obviously do not show any particular relationship to Italians; if they did, we wouldn't be able to tell at a glance who the Sardinians in this study's "IT" (Italy) sample were.<BR/><BR/>On the contrary, it is quite obvious that the Spanish and Portuguese are genetically intermediate between the French on the "West European" side and the Sardinians on the "Paleo-Iberian" side. </I><BR/><BR/>Uh?<BR/><BR/>Let's see: Sardinia was colonized first of all by Neolithic colonists of the Cardium Pottery culture. Agreed? These were either UP Italians or West Balcanic Neolithic peoples or maybe even from further East. This is probably the only significative colonization of the island, specially the interior "refuge". <BR/><BR/>There migh have been an Iberian penetration with the Nuraghi but that's all. <BR/><BR/>And, by the way, we do not know for sure if that IT cluster are Sardinians, at least I don't. I was the first to suggest it and the rest followed suit. Maybe someone with access to the paper could clarify because there is no specific tag on that cluster in the graph (Scotland or Sicily are tagged instead).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28193414864370290232008-09-01T23:15:00.000+03:002008-09-01T23:15:00.000+03:00Well from what I understand Catalan immigration in...Well from what I understand Catalan immigration into Sardinia was pretty extensive during the Argonese/Spanish rule. Some towns or cities were completely repopulated by Spanish people.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, according to archeology and history, Sardinia should be more Italian, settled from people from mainland Italy, with some input via the Achaeans possibly or some other Eastern Euro-Mediterranean people(Etruscans?). Their Y Chromosomes should be somewhat Anatolian or even closer to Scandinavia or Balkan( Y Chromosome I)..but they never cluster near any of these other groups as far as I remember. <BR/><BR/>They always seem to be distinct from other Italians and others they should be technically closer too(like say the Corsicans), but arent. They namely seem closer to modern Iberians for some reason.<BR/><BR/>I suppose a more modern explaniantion has to be Spanish Dominance of the island, probably altered the island from the one antiquity. It should be remembered also despite being the 2nd largest island in the Mediterranean, its population is less than 2 million people, compared to the largest island in the Mediterranean, Sicily which has a population of 5 million. <BR/><BR/>PS<BR/><BR/>The Iberians are neatly separated from the British peoples, which I think undermines the theory they were populated by paleo-Iberians or such. British seem closer to some of the French, possibly because of the Gauls.Crimson Guardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08259882884691575025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80102629331227322372008-09-01T22:44:00.000+03:002008-09-01T22:44:00.000+03:00Oh an another thing -this usually happens because ...Oh an another thing -this usually happens because there is no one else around,so all there are are Poles,Jews,Negros,Italians,Latinos,and Asians -I really don't know anybody else.And if there are one or two of your people they usually don't have or own anything or they're real stupid acting.So you almost have to side with one of the other ones. I guess my ethnicity is the Jerk race...I'm last Martian on earthmiz RAND BLOWTONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13306476695686165653noreply@blogger.com