tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2620952333898334721..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: ESHG 2012 abstractsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19396237959320241332012-06-14T07:30:16.286+03:002012-06-14T07:30:16.286+03:00Another extremely interesting aspect of that paper...Another extremely interesting aspect of that paper: <br /><br />"Results of molecular dating of Iranian mtDNA lineages show that macrohaplogroup N and its haplogroups N1, R, U, R2’JT coalesce to the time of 45-60 kya, marking the first stages of modern humans movement out of Africa". <br /><br />That is comfortingly close to the dates Behar came up with in the recent paper Dienekes blogged here: <br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/copernican-reassessment-of-human.html<br /><br />Perhaps the dates in the current paper are based on those ones. That paper has N first spreading at 58,859.9 ya., N1'5 at 56,547 ya., and N1 at 51,642.7 ya. R spread at 56,523.5 ya., and R2'JT at 53,771.5 ya. and U at 46,531 ya. Those dates fit completely within the 45-60 kya date claimed in the current paper. <br /><br />But by 53,771.5 ya. R2'JT began its spread P had already begun spreading from Australia to new Guinea and the Philippines (54,801.3 ya.) and R31 had begun spreading round India (54,895 ya.). As I said, very interesting.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87359462966723865122012-06-13T06:32:52.927+03:002012-06-13T06:32:52.927+03:00"The ancient ancestry of Iranian gene pool is..."The ancient ancestry of Iranian gene pool is also confirmed by revealing of the unique N23 lineage survived both in Persians and Qashqais, albeit at low frequencies" <br /><br />I presume that is a mispront. Do they mean N3, fairly recently discovered in Iran? N23 is certainly not listed in the April version of Phylotree.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21665491487549738592012-06-13T06:15:42.404+03:002012-06-13T06:15:42.404+03:00"Certainly if prehistoric Romanians are most ..."Certainly if prehistoric Romanians are most like living Thracian Turks, this suggests that there was a population movement in historical times into the Balkans, probably related to the Slavs."<br /><br />I presume you mean dilution of an ancient Thrace-like population of Romania by incoming Slavs?<br /><br />It could also be taken as evidence of a movement of Slavs in to Thrace.<br /><br />This is after all evidence that modern Thrace is like ancient Romania. Not that modern Romania is like ancient Thrace.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48557876145876211332012-06-13T03:46:54.772+03:002012-06-13T03:46:54.772+03:00In what is now Romania, the dominant group all thr...In what is now Romania, the dominant group all through the Iron Age and probably also the Late Bronze Age if not earlier was Thracians (including Dacians and Getae). They gradually Romanized during the Roman rule. The Slavic migrations of the Middle Ages probably led to some changes in the genetic makeup of the area. As maternal lineages better reflect autosomal genetic variation than paternal lineages, the most plausible conclusion from the results of this study is that: the Bronze and Iron Age people of what is now Romania are genetically closest to Thracian or Balkan Turks among modern populations, and that is because that Balkan Turks are mostly from the southeastern parts of the Balkans and that the southeastern parts of the Balkans are probably among the parts of the Balkans that were least affected by the Slavic migrations and have preserved the pre-Slavic genetic structure the most.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8026417105832733502012-06-13T00:46:07.868+03:002012-06-13T00:46:07.868+03:00The area of modern Ramania was also home to the Ch...The area of modern Ramania was also home to the Chernyakhov Culture - which was a blending of Goth, Dacian, Sarmatian<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culturepconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86879805090922599652012-06-13T00:09:29.355+03:002012-06-13T00:09:29.355+03:00Fair enough; anyhow; great study ! I suppose it...Fair enough; anyhow; great study ! I suppose it'll be a year till full article is publishedRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39790522354053649922012-06-12T21:14:28.345+03:002012-06-12T21:14:28.345+03:00All tries to position autosomal genetic results of...All tries to position autosomal genetic results of Bulgarians and Romanians on the map show that they don't correspond to the current national area.<br />Bulgarians show more to the West, while Romanians to South West, proving there was some population movement in more recent times.<br />Many Turks on turn moved from North East Bulgaria to the area around Edirne and Istanbul.<br />So nobody can say who is more autochthonous at the current place of residence.<br />http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Genes-mirror-geography-for-Europeans.jpggenefanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735643231654122583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58360548700251957112012-06-12T17:09:59.042+03:002012-06-12T17:09:59.042+03:00from a mere 50 or so samples
50 samples is a high...<i>from a mere 50 or so samples</i><br /><br />50 samples is a high number for an ancient mtDNA sampling of such a restricted region from such a restricted period. Of course more is better, but 50 mtDNA samples is not a low number, especially for such an ancient population. These ancient mtDNA samples certainly have statistical value to make strong generalizations about population relationships on the maternal side.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24425298052347162732012-06-12T16:17:51.015+03:002012-06-12T16:17:51.015+03:00you'd need several hundreds of samples to have...<i>you'd need several hundreds of samples to have adequate power in their analysis</i><br /><br />That is baseless speculation. There is no a priori sample size with "adequate power". For example, one could determine that Romanians and Nigerians have different mtDNA gene pools with a sample size of 5-10, whereas one would need a much bigger sample size to detect differences between two Romanian cities.<br /><br />Also, the idea that "Their conclusion about apparent similarity of their BA & IA samples to modern Thracian Turks is not necessarily generalisable to all ancient Thracians; but merely for their sample data." shows a lack of understanding of what sampling is; the collection of samples from a population puts probabilistic contraints on the density of the population distribution, and hence ALWAYS generalizes to the non-sampled individuals.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50743825642198080172012-06-12T16:07:20.531+03:002012-06-12T16:07:20.531+03:00"That is a meaningless statement, that only s..."That is a meaningless statement, that only someone ignorant of basic statistics would make"<br /><br />How so ? All I meant was that we cannot really be too confident that those ancient Thracians were "more" like modern Turks from Thrace than say , modern Romanians, from a mere 50 or so samples. (whislt their effort is most laudable, you'd need several hundreds of samples to have adequate power in their analysis, I thought that what's basic statistics is)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9097427357044417052012-06-12T16:01:58.272+03:002012-06-12T16:01:58.272+03:00Their conclusion about apparent similarity of thei...<i>Their conclusion about apparent similarity of their BA & IA samples to modern Thracian Turks is not necessarily generalisable to all ancient Thracians; but merely for their sample data.</i><br /><br />That is a meaningless statement, that only someone ignorant of basic statistics would make.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38379167399159460292012-06-12T16:01:31.415+03:002012-06-12T16:01:31.415+03:00"A Y -chromosome portrait of modern Bulgarian..."A Y -chromosome portrait of modern Bulgarians as viewed from different spatiotemporal aspects"<br /><br />Excellent. We need more studies like this. Ie looking at >>within<< country regional differences. Aggregating Y Haplogroups averages of countries can hinder rather than help efforts in constructing proper molecular anthropological conclusions.<br /><br />To stick with the Balkans, we should look at north/ south Serbia, north / south Greece, east (of Struma) / west of Struma northern Macedonia, etcRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69226285913226915812012-06-12T15:58:14.407+03:002012-06-12T15:58:14.407+03:00RE "Analysis of mitochondrial DNA haplotypes ...RE "Analysis of mitochondrial DNA haplotypes of old human populations from the Bronze and Iron Age from Romania" <br /><br />Their conclusion about apparent similarity of their BA & IA samples to modern Thracian Turks is not necessarily generalisable to all ancient Thracians; but merely for their sample data.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.com