tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2497607102528094371..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Migrants introduced farming to BritainDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36418586003445617482010-02-12T15:08:04.350+02:002010-02-12T15:08:04.350+02:00for the 'demic' effect i immediatly refer ...for the 'demic' effect i immediatly refer (that is my brain process immediatly explains to me as such) to the cromagnon population explosion. also there it has been shown that after the initial advance in food procuration as a result of a for the region innovative toolset (not yet agriculture) , the population grew, yet not much later on (i think some 12 generations /300 years) declined again. even more compelling is the skelettal evidence. <br />not much after what has been called (i think its largely in doubt these days as such) the neolithic revolution, the incredibly healthy and well grown statures of the initial cromagnon diminshes again. iotw. i wonder if this can also be shown for the agricultural expansion(s). like this one and other ones mentioned in the comments.onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36863235600981022022010-02-12T14:06:40.272+02:002010-02-12T14:06:40.272+02:00with "later" i mean further on in the ex...with "later" i mean further on in the expansion. i must say i am not aware of the different phases you mention. sorry i what i write is confusing or overly crude. i'll also try to be more precise in my language next time i comment. i mostly studied the whole thing as an analogy for other militairy (interhuman violence) developments, such as gunpowder, bow and arrows , the wheel and horse and the machine gun.onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88854422957376115932010-02-12T13:42:17.030+02:002010-02-12T13:42:17.030+02:00ah i see there is a comment on mine. i bow humbly,...ah i see there is a comment on mine. i bow humbly, what you say about the different features may be a lot more accurate and precise then what i know, i just wrote down the compilation of what i do know about it. <br /><br />while writing indeed i remember oxen were mentioned, however the research of the dispersal of agriculture i know of focussed on sheep bones (i think they had just few cows). ramparts is my way of saying earthen walls and pallisades, perhaps that is incorrect. however i have read research about early agricultural settlement,(i wouldn't know by whom and when) and it definitly infered a such relation between the trend to fortify and the attitude of the original population, based on that fortifications were actually uncommon. i remember it specifically mentoned the area you mention, perhaps when we look at north america it is somewhat explained, in for example the french english struggle there, you see natives would travel quite a distance (eg 1500 miles) to fight the initial influx, one reason fortifications are rarer later may have been that the "wild" (there are etymological hints for that term) people tried to fight of the influx in a similar way. like i said: fortification was (by far) not common.onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79229720125899225752010-02-12T13:42:03.664+02:002010-02-12T13:42:03.664+02:00random additions: since the sickle existed in ston...random additions: since the sickle existed in stone tool variety ofcourse it existed in copper. i think a few examples are known, interestingly also animal jaws have been used as sickle and as such the concept may have been of unretrievable anciety, ie paleotlithic. <br />there are no indications i know of the main culture bearer was replaced by locals anywhere except in the most extreme parts of the continent. examples, estonia, were the transition was peacefull and teh groups mixed. netherlands where the locals stole the technologys and adapted them in a rather different way that suited the landscape , (ie. smaller pieces of tilted land, that centred more around sth similar to hamletts then settlements (villages). i allways think of bretagne (in france) that way (not familiar with the archeology tho), and i think it has been shown for the more remote islands in the northsea (faroer). oddly in denmark the bell ceramics culture was (very near) completely , abruptly and violently extinguished.(oddly because it is an extremity of the continent, and such didn't happen to any great or comparable extend in eg. netherlands resp. germany (or as i mentioned estonia)). the explanation might be in that the dutch terrain was extremely inaccesible (swampy) and estonia populated by relatively small numbers of agriculturalists (cold). the ertbolle culture was thriving and appears to have put up a rather stif fight,(tehres a sequence of devastated settelments) but denmark is relatively easily accesible. (dry). btw netherlands does have a rather large proportion of fertile land (river and sea clays) its not all sand at all. the admixture of glacial dunes and the river silts produced an examplary fertile soil, and flooding of the rivers was in many places contained with like glacial dunes, as a result you see roman roads and celtic settlements both appear on the seperation between the sandy areas and areas where the rivers still overflow the land most of the years (where also post roman population still centred) . the heath landscape at least overhere (in netherlands) is largely post roman, that means the subsistance on sheep is, since it were the roman that cut down the dutch forests, wich persisted mostly through the shift to agriculture. next , the admixture of the cultures was not great, either the agriculturalists replaced the original population, (denmark and germany to anatolia), wich would mean ofcourse they took over the game and fish resources,it is assumed by claiming to much of the natural resources but more specifically a to great portion of the land, or the distinction remained for much longer like in netherlands (and perhaps bretagne, gallicia). the original population already claimed the available fish and game resources (that provide food for a substantially lower population limit, wich was basically the reason why they lost out). after the first adaptions to agriculture a similar mechanism of replacement still occurred in the more suitable areas in netherlands. but slower. so not the agriculturalists took to hunting, in the case of admixture but rather the huntergatherers took to agriculture, in most cases (like in estonia, germany?) as a minority element of the total population. it is assumed this was a general trend unless the situation (like in denmark) escalated violently.<br />i don't know if i am informative in what i am going to tell next, but cow herding (and the assumed lactose tolerance to go with it, as the basic means of subsistence in netherlands (most typically and notably the frysian culture) date from a later date (my rough estimate late celtic period) and indeed form an adaption to the repeated flooding, however this area was flooded by the sea, i know of no such relation with rivers, that is not it wouldnt have happened, but there was not a culture like that based on the rivers and the area they flooded.onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35289503962969539682010-02-12T12:24:02.412+02:002010-02-12T12:24:02.412+02:00i know the following: all the way from the balkans...<i>i know the following: all the way from the balkans to western germany the pattern of introduction of agriculture was the same, slash and burn and agriculture mixed with modest numbers of sheep and what else they had, not a lot, i forgot if anything else was there at the time of first introduction but sheep. maybe goat</i>.<br /><br />Not really, Onix. The main domestic animal of the Western Lineal Pottery Culture (LBK) was the cow/ox, with increase in size even at the previous Starcevo-Koros-Cris cultural area of the Northern Balcans, that has been speculated to be related to local domestication of aurochs. <br /><br />Additionally, there was an important agricultural production: two variants of wheat, rye, green peas, lentils, linen and, in the West (Germany), also opium. <br /><br />Goat and, specially, sheep were dominant in the Cardium Pottery group of the Adriatic and Western Mediterranean, where high seas fishing (and hence navigation) was also important, along with agriculture (wheat, rye, legumes). <br /><br />Hunting was somewhat important in LBK (10%) and maybe more in CP. <br /><br /><i>it is also worth mentioning that it has been shown that fortification of settlements mostly took place in the front of the expansion</i>.<br /><br />I know of no such fortifications, at least not in the early stages. Rondels or "camps" (similar to henges: wooden enclosures with an <b>internal</b> ditch and typically four widely open gates) are generaly considered to be religious or otherwise "cultural" buildings and show no indications of inhabitation. <br /><br />The first (controversial) fortifications in European Neolithic appear in the Balcans, after the establishment of the, probably intrusive, Vinca-Dimini cultural complex (black-beige pottery). <br /><br />In Central Europe, the first tendency towards fortifications belongs to the early Lengyel period (5th milennium, also early 4th milennium further north), long after the initial Danubian expansion, when it was already getting very much regionalized. They mostly consist of moving settlements to high places, though in some cases do show signs of fortification as well (ditch, stockade and ramparts). This trend is still limited to the Lengyel area, that includes Moravia, West Hungary, East Austria and West Slovakia. It might be more a defensive trend against the Vinca intruders or other Danubian groups than against unknown huntergatherers not anymore known to exist in the region so late. Alternatively it might represent internal warfare between communities of the Lengyel culture itself.<br /><br />Another cultural area that shows some signs of fortifications is Pre-Cucuteni (Moldavia, SW Urkaine) but these are limited to ditches before Chalcolithic.<br /><br />In Chalcolithic times fortifications and surely warfare would become more common, this trend is no doubt associated to the stratification of society and higher population densities, and is more intense in the more civilized Balcans (and south Iberia).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74416204806381100732010-02-12T11:47:48.556+02:002010-02-12T11:47:48.556+02:00woo what an impressive nr of comments. about the e...woo what an impressive nr of comments. about the expansion of agriculture and domestic animals, i know the following: all the way from the balkans to western germany the pattern of introduction of agriculture was the same, slash and burn and agriculture mixed with modest numbers of sheep and what else they had, not a lot, i forgot if anything else was there at the time of first introduction but sheep. maybe goat. the dispersal rate was rather equal over the whole distance, because the foremost fronts used that slash and burn system. to move on after exhaustion of the ground wich roughly took ten miles per generation and burn new pristine (allthough sparsely inhabited) forested lands. there is no indication i know of of seperate shepherds, or 'herding tribes'. its quite easy to see all the small acre's, mh that seems logical in dutch, pieces of tilted land (akkers) , coincide with the first sheep bones. maybe cows as well i vaguely recollect, however the sheep have been demonstrated to specifically be genetically similar all the way from the balkans (anatolia at first) to the west of germany. that proved they did not move so slow that the domesticated species adapted or was adapted. it also shed some light about the question raised, since it showed there was basically only one culture involved in that introduction. except that this development gave rise to the first soldier classes and hierarchic structures (probably inheritable authority) it is also worth mentioning that it has been shown that fortification of settlements mostly took place in the front of the expansion. it happened quite often but by far not allways. it's assumed that since the agriculturists moved in a western direction they would only fortify where they met dedicated resistance, for wich there is some proof in the sense of settlements that have been both fortified (with ramparts) and attacked. <br />ill read all teh comments at some point, perhaps i am completely superfluous. just wanted to point out this question has been relatively thoroughly researched from several viewpoints.onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63871601944625134852010-02-01T22:39:09.150+02:002010-02-01T22:39:09.150+02:00Thought I'd record this reference, which I man...Thought I'd record this reference, which I managed to refind over the weekend, regarding Spartan "pipes."<br /><br />"Soldiers were always aware of the nature and caliber of the troops posted opposite them; the sight of the scarlet cloaks and long hair of the men of a Spartan phalanx especially brought fear into the hearts of most opponents. (Xenophon: Respublica Lacedaemoniorum 10.3.8:98) And poor Kleon, commanding the Athenians in their defeat at Amphipolis in 422, we are told, took off at a run as soon as he saw the Lambdas on the Spartan shields shining across the plain. (Eupolis: F 359:99) The Spartan phalanx--with reason--was carefully groomed by Agesilaos so that his troops might look like "one mass of bronze and scarlet." (Xenophon: Agesilaos 2.7: 99) Once the Persians made their way around the pass at Thermopylai they had to be assured that the Greek pickets there were not really Spartan hoplites--so great had the fear of those soldiers become to them. (Herodotus: 7.218.1-2:99) Just as frightening was the infamous sound of the Spartan pipes, which signaled to the front ranks of the enemy across the battlefield the onset of the slow, dreadful advance. (Xenophon, Cyropaedia: 3.3.58:99)(Aeschylus, Septum contra Thebas: 270; Persae 389)(Thucydides, 5.70) 'It was a sight at once awesome and terrifying,' Plutarch remarked, 'as the Spartans marched in step to the pipe, leaving no gap in their line of battle and with no confusion in their hearts, but calmly and cheerfully advancing into danger.' (Plutarch, Lycurgus, 22.2-3)"<br /><br />From "The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece" by Victor David Hanson, page 99.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-303733636395142292010-01-30T01:55:57.559+02:002010-01-30T01:55:57.559+02:00I'd like to thank you, Maju and eurologist, fo...I'd like to thank you, Maju and eurologist, for your information on farming and construction in Europe.<br /><br />Still, I'm going to carry on with my bagpipe idea, as it appears that every group with significant R1b occurance seems to play or have played a version of the bagpipe, including the Hazara and the Hausa. The only R1b group I can find that does not appear to have played a bagpipe are the Balkarians. They play the flute.<br /><br />I wish you a nice weekend.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51335303296404830502010-01-29T16:50:41.074+02:002010-01-29T16:50:41.074+02:00Agreed, Eurologist. Modern "traditional"...Agreed, Eurologist. Modern "traditional" houses are not representative of Neolithic housing. Early Balcanic homes were made of mudbrick just as in West Asia, even creating the same kind of artificial hills known as "tells" ("magoulas" in Greek, I believe). <br /><br />Marnie is probably making up too much of "modern" evidence. She needs to go to the public library and read a few books on European late prehistory, IMO.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88310324913450310442010-01-29T10:58:42.803+02:002010-01-29T10:58:42.803+02:00The stone houses in Greece have wooden posts and b...<i>The stone houses in Greece have wooden posts and bems. In fact, the beams are massive, to support the traditional slate roofs. Not sure about the construction of the foundation.</i><br /><br />That is now - the stone houses in the Balkans and the Danubian long houses were 8,000 years ago. I don't know much about the Balkan stone houses - but if they were like their Anatolian predecessors, beams were only used to enable door ways and to support roofs - not to support the entire structure and the weight of the roof with wooden pillars.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82406601799234301002010-01-29T07:49:43.369+02:002010-01-29T07:49:43.369+02:00Bagpipe-R1b Theory
The Bagpipe, strongly differen...Bagpipe-R1b Theory<br /><br />The Bagpipe, strongly differentiated and of ancient origin, most likely originated in SW Asia. It is intimately linked with a pastoral sheep/goat/cattle herding people who also carry an R1b haplogroup signature.<br /><br />The inseparability of R1b pastoralism and the bagpipe suggest that the instrument fulfilled some essential herding function.<br /><br />The presence of the bagpipe might be used to narrow in on R1b populations for the purpose of haplogroup evolution testing. <br /><br />Significantly, the Hausa people of Tropical West Africa play a bagpipe, are a pastoral people and carry the R1b haplogroup in greater than 40% of men.<br /><br />Differentiation and innovation in bagpipe style, from primitive to finely developed, may also correlate with a westward migration from the cradle of R1b pastoralism.<br /><br />Copyright (c) 2010 by Marnie Dunsmore. All Rights Reserved.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61697887057540344052010-01-29T06:39:22.018+02:002010-01-29T06:39:22.018+02:00"In Nigeria the hollow jointed stem is common..."In Nigeria the hollow jointed stem is commonly used to make pipe stems, flutes and the mouthpiece of the Hausa bagpipe called algaita"<br /><br />Check out the link:<br /><br />"Useful plants of West Tropical Africa"<br />http://www.aluka.org/action/<br />showMetadata?doi=10.5555/AL.AP.UPWTA.2_690&pgs=&cookieSet=1<br /><br />Bagpipe-R1b Theory is holding up pretty well.<br /><br /><br />Marnie DunsmoreMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66631867968777088442010-01-29T01:51:53.311+02:002010-01-29T01:51:53.311+02:00According to the following link, Aristophanes, the...According to the following link, Aristophanes, the Greek playwright, mentions the bagpipes as being "waspy sounding."<br /><br />http://www.sackpfeifen.de/<br />deutschsack/dudel1e.htm<br /><br />Maju, perhaps you would agree.<br /><br />Moving on from the bagpipes, it occured to me that since we are interested in pastoralism, and specifically cattle, I know of a reference for "cattle driving"<br />into unknown territory.<br /><br />It is recorded in a geneology of my paternal grandmother's family: Geneology of the Olmstead family in America. <br /><br />(page xvii)<br /><br />"". . . Nor were these emigrants," as Green declares, "like the earlier colonists of the South, 'broken men,' adventurers, bankrupts, criminals; or simply poor men and artisans, like the Pilgrim Fathers of the Mayflower. They were in great part men of the professional and middle class; some of them men of large landed estate."<br /><br />"Of the latter class was our honored relative, James Olmsted, who, together with two sons, Nicholas and Nehemiah, two nephews, Richard and John, and a niece, Rebecca, arrived in New England, on the Lord's Day, Sept. 16, 1632, in the ship "Lyon", under Capt. Pierce, after a voyage of 12 weeks from Braintree, England. There were 123 passengers, of whom 50 were children."<br /><br />(page xviii)<br /><br />" . . . There, the Braintree Colony, as it was termed, abode until the summer of 1636, when, dissatisfied by the form of government of the colony of Massachusetts and tempted by the charm of this pleasant Connecticut valley, of which they had heard reports, they "took departure from Cambridge," and in the words of Trumbull, "travelled more than a hundred miles through a hideous and trackless wilderness, to Hartford. They had no guide but their compass; made their way over mountains, through swamps, thickets and rivers, which were not passable but with great difficulty. They had no cover but the heavens, nor any lodgings but those which simple nature afforded them. They drove with them a hundred and sixty head of cattle, and by the way, subsisted on the milk of their cows. Mrs. Hooker (who was ill) was borne through the wilderness upon a litter. The people generally carried their packs, arms and some utensils. They were nearly a fortnight on their journey."<br /><br />So, looking at a map of Northern France, a really determined group could probably walk village + cattle, along river valleys, from Strasbourg to Nord-Pas-Du-Calais, 200 miles, in about four weeks. (A fortnight is two weeks.)Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11379907614747255772010-01-28T23:56:17.279+02:002010-01-28T23:56:17.279+02:00Per Wikipedia, bagpipes exist in all Europe and We...Per Wikipedia, bagpipes exist in all Europe and West Asia. The oldest reference seems to be to Roman emperor Nero playing an instrument with either the mouth or the armpit, so it seems to be a bagpipe. Then the references go to the Middle Ages and. in Northern Europe, at later dates.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5505358400269160882010-01-28T23:48:15.880+02:002010-01-28T23:48:15.880+02:00Maybe they all come from Cyprus or whatever. They ...Maybe they all come from Cyprus or whatever. They might also be Indoeuropean or Neolithic or who knows?! Sadly perishable materials leave very few remains, if any, so it's not like it'd be easy to find out.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59072953713158510352010-01-28T22:28:24.185+02:002010-01-28T22:28:24.185+02:00Maju,
My bagpipe theory got more complicated this...Maju,<br /><br />My bagpipe theory got more complicated this morning. I found a German bagpipe.<br /><br />I agree that the Irish uilleann pipes and Scottish Bagpipe look most closely related to the Asturian gaita.<br /><br />But how do you explain the Sicilian zampogna. It is thee most primitive looking of all the bagpipes I have looked at.<br /><br /><br />How did the Zampogna get to Sicily?<br /><br />Also, the Zampogna and Balkan Gaida look very closely related.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28207717242540168442010-01-28T22:20:35.663+02:002010-01-28T22:20:35.663+02:00Eurologist,
No argument with the farming methods,...Eurologist,<br /><br />No argument with the farming methods, cattle and crops along the Danube. You clearly know more about it that I.<br /><br />There does seem to be a German bagpipe. It is most similar in construction to the almost extinct Swedish bagpipe. <br /><br />http://www.sackpfeifen.de/deutschsack/dudel1e.htm<br /><br />"As to the wooden houses: as opposed to rocks/stone, the material was available locally on the Loess planes (that the farmers knew to select for fertility), and building was not too time-consuming. The initial structures probably lasted just one generation (~25 years), because they did not realize until later that the main posts should be set on stone - they rotted away from the bottom."<br /><br />The stone houses in Greece have wooden posts and bems. In fact, the beams are massive, to support the traditional slate roofs. Not sure about the construction of the foundation.<br /><br />Regarding sausages. The meat thing is always somewhat amusing when I've gone to Germany. As I do not speak German, ordering at a restaurant always requires a little bravery.<br /><br />Greeks have "slaughtering fests" too. Apart from sausages that are in the German style, they also make kokoretsi. <br /><br />The Scots have haggis.<br /><br />Not saying that Greeks are the Danubians or anything like that. Just noting the similarity in ancient customs across Europe.<br /><br />Here is another pre/quasi-Christian custom that spans various corners of Europe:<br /><br />The Vasilopita celebration, also celebrated in France as Galette des Rois. I don't think this is celebrated in the British Isles, but Twelfth Night used to be.<br /><br />Thanks for all the information about animals, sausages, house construction and crops. It has been enlightening.<br /><br />If your interested in British farming methods and architecture before the industrial revolution, I highly recommend "Walks and Talks of an American Farmer in England" written by Frederick Law Olmstead, 1850.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44356492151470515352010-01-28T21:32:38.050+02:002010-01-28T21:32:38.050+02:00Ponto:
"I don't know why the news of imm...Ponto:<br /><br />"I don't know why the news of immigrants introducing an exotic Middle Eastern form of occupation, with exotic plants and animals should be so strange. The Neolithic farmers over landed using the river systems to Central Europe and beyond, and also traveled by boat along the Mediterranean Sea by saltatory movements. Once in Iberia or France it is no great problem getting to Britain."<br /><br /><br />I don't think that people would say it was strange. But who, how, and when?Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53046675524711644692010-01-28T21:27:42.740+02:002010-01-28T21:27:42.740+02:00terryt,
Thanks for your comments on Bull motifs a...terryt,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments on Bull motifs appearing in Minoan and Egyptian artifacts.<br /><br />I went to the "Bactrian Hoard" exibit last year (The one that was found in Afghanistan). There are many bull motifs there as well. I got into a conversation with an archeologist there and was asking him about some of the things I had seen at the Thessaloniki Archeological Museum. <br /><br />One thing he told me is that there is a current area of work looking at the artistic and goldsmith abilities of the Thracians. I would suspect that the Thracians may be an ancient civilation, along with the Minoans and the Egyptians. They just don't appear to have written much down.<br /><br />Thought you might be interested, since the Egyptians and Minoans get a lot of PR. The Thracians and the tribes of the Central Asian Steppe seem to be less recognized and less documented.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-38090480646778909842010-01-28T16:20:21.604+02:002010-01-28T16:20:21.604+02:00Someone had to bring the bagpipes northward from s...<i>Someone had to bring the bagpipes northward from somewhere in Southern Europe. Who was it?</i><br /><br />Megalithic peoples from Portugal or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age" rel="nofollow">Bronze Age peoples of the same area</a>.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14850192797560260162010-01-28T11:55:11.918+02:002010-01-28T11:55:11.918+02:00Marnie,
The archeological evidence seems to indic...Marnie,<br /><br />The archeological evidence seems to indicate that early farmers were sedentary, and preferred goat/sheep in the Mediterranean, and cows in central and northern Europe - <i>initially</i> (and for the climatic, soil, and transport reasons Maju and I expanded upon, above). Yes, the Danubians also had pigs and sheep, because it is quite practical to just bring a few of them through the long winters.<br /><br />(As to the colder parts of Greece: the climatic optimum was milder than today, and of course, early farmers anyway would have picked the warmer valleys, first).<br /><br />Of course, nomadic peoples tend to leave less remains, so you have a bit of a point in that we certainly don't know everything. Yet, the use of shepherding in the marginal northern regions, but millenia after agriculture was introduced in Europe, is indeed well documented.<br /><br />As to the wooden houses: as opposed to rocks/stone, the material was available locally on the Loess planes (that the farmers knew to select for fertility), and building was not too time-consuming. The initial structures probably lasted just one generation (~25 years), because they did not realize until later that the main posts should be set on stone - they rotted away from the bottom.<br /><br />Maju, the braided wood/loam construction is just for the side walls, which did not carry any load. Load was carried by main posts and beams. And the sloping roof almost completely covered the walls, so they would not get damaged by rain (and additional dry storage space was formed). I agree, though, everything point to this being a logical evolution from a former construction with another purpose (as I alluded to above).<br /><br />In the sandy north, rocks are "Findlinge" <br />http://images.google.com/images?q=findlinge <br />- so they do exist (sparsely) - but you have to find them! ;) Those ice-age remnants were used for funerary architecture, but are evidently not practical for buildings, for the most part.<br /><br />My guess is that it took some time for the first farmers to actually achieve longer life spans and think about the advantage of higher-cost, but longer-lasting housing. In the areas where no suitable rocks can be found <i>locally</i> (again, all this is pre-wheels!), eventually someone thought that making ceramic rocks (bricks) from clay was worth the effort. I am too tired to look up when this occurred...<br /><br />Finally, sausages!<br />"Slaughtering fests" still have a tradition in much of central and northern Europe. It's not just an all-you-can-eat before the winter, getting rid of pigs and cows you can't afford to carry through. Air-dried and smoked sausages and ham will actually last all the way through spring, in those climates, without any other preservation (except salt against external mold, if available).eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43097113208630156852010-01-28T11:50:32.719+02:002010-01-28T11:50:32.719+02:00The bull worship has to do with star grazing. When...The bull worship has to do with star grazing. When the constellation Taurus was to rise at the vernal equinox. Think about it? The Spinx in Egypt, had a lion's body. Jesus was the fisher of men, Pisces. The lamb of God, Aries. It is just star worshiping superstitions.<br /><br />Sorry can't read all the post. I don't know why the news of immigrants introducing an exotic Middle Eastern form of occupation, with exotic plants and animals should be so strange. The Neolithic farmers over landed using the river systems to Central Europe and beyond, and also traveled by boat along the Mediterranean Sea by saltatory movements. Once in Iberia or France it is no great problem getting to Britain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12160493311018901952010-01-28T10:16:37.338+02:002010-01-28T10:16:37.338+02:00"But those Angus don't even have horns wh..."But those Angus don't even have horns what in itself was surely important for survival in the past". <br /><br />Not really, once you have domestication. In fact the polled animals may have been selectively bred from. No horns to dodge when trying to herd them. <br /><br />"Bull motifs appear in a lot of ancient Thracian and Macedonian jewelry". <br /><br />And way befoire then. The bull seems to have been sacred in early urban sites in Anatolia and in Minoan times. Even in Egypt we find the 'Apis Bull'.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18504501444901139612010-01-28T08:44:55.403+02:002010-01-28T08:44:55.403+02:00"Cows are the only domestic animal that has s..."Cows are the only domestic animal that has strong spiritual connotations being sacred in two very different cultures such as India and ancient Egypt. That's because they are most useful: they provide milk, manure for the fields, fire and even construction materials (no kidding: lots of pastoralist cultures use cow dung for many purposes), traction for the plows and the loads, and are more valuable in general than other domestic animals being among the most primitive coins."<br /><br />Bull motifs appear in a lot of ancient Thracian and Macedonian jewelry. There are quite a number of exquisite examples on display at the Archeological Museum of Thessaloniki.<br /><br />I'm not sure of the dates on these.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9700616695427895622010-01-28T06:22:50.493+02:002010-01-28T06:22:50.493+02:00OK, agreed, certain hardy breeds of cattle, along ...OK, agreed, certain hardy breeds of cattle, along with hardy goats and sheep, for an early pastoral lifestyle.<br /><br />Again, my central point is to think about two things:<br /><br />What is the most economical lifestyle that would have allowed people to push northward into a marginal climate?<br /><br /><br />Someone had to bring the bagpipes northward from somewhere in Southern Europe. Who was it?<br /><br />As indicated in the first post in this thread, there were probably at least two significant migrations into the British Isles. One of them brought the bagpipe with them, I would suspect.<br /><br />Looking forward to your comments tomorrow. I'm well behind you guys, still stuck in yesterday, and have to put my children to bed!Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.com