tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2430145011854587477..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Y chromosomes of Neolithic cattle do not suggest hybridization with European aurochsenDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61715507352430125482008-10-17T09:14:00.000+03:002008-10-17T09:14:00.000+03:00Likewise for cave paintings of ponies - check out ...Likewise for cave paintings of ponies - check out the Exmoor:<BR/><BR/>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/exmoor/index.htm<BR/><BR/>http://www.flickr.com/photos/47405401@N00/414867549/<BR/><BR/>We had one when I was a kid.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69732831606934731382008-10-17T09:11:00.000+03:002008-10-17T09:11:00.000+03:00Terry, Maju,If your looking mostly at coloration, ...Terry, Maju,<BR/><BR/>If your looking mostly at coloration, then take a look at the Limousin Cattle:<BR/>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/limousin/index.htm<BR/>or<BR/>http://www.whitelums.co.uk/Limousin.htm<BR/><BR/>They're an ancient beef bred from Southern France - we used to cross them with Frisians when I was a kid.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83036285597891801382008-10-17T06:55:00.000+03:002008-10-17T06:55:00.000+03:00Thanks for that link Maju. I'm interested in catt...Thanks for that link Maju. I'm interested in cattle, having been brought up on a dairy farm. <BR/><BR/>The reason I mentioned jerseys is that the bulls and cows are usually a different colour. Bulls are quite dark with a lighter back while the cows are more uniformly pale brown with some dark around their head. I've seen Paleolithic cave paintings of Aurochs that show this dimorphic colour system although it seems unusual in european cattle generally. Therefore I suspect it's a primitive trait. <BR/><BR/>Typical jersey cow: <BR/><BR/>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/jersey/images/jersey-web-1.jpg<BR/><BR/>Jersey bull (although he has more white than is usual): <BR/><BR/>http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/57/76957-004-E76B9C89.jpgterrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91540075720817434112008-10-15T22:24:00.000+03:002008-10-15T22:24:00.000+03:00I'd actually look for aurochsen Y-chromosome speci...<I>I'd actually look for aurochsen Y-chromosome specifically in jersey cattle.</I><BR/><BR/><I>I'd check among the White Park Cattle</I><BR/><BR/>I guess all or nearly all European cattle may have some auroch genes. Most of the modern breeds are actually more a product of artificial selection than just a matter of ancestry, right?<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, consider also please the Basque <A HREF="http://lprdad.fao.org/cgi-bin/EfabisWeb.cgi?sid=79426dbee626469a45f47e5e8a629d8d,reportsreport8a_25" REL="nofollow">betizu breed</A>: half wild, big, red, with large lire-shaped horns... Also, I guess that the brave bull breed used for bullfights may keep some of the fierceness (and therefore genetics) of the wild ancestors of domestic cattle (but in this case intentional breeding may have been more important in the final result, whatever the genes selected).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67265915519636262212008-10-15T20:00:00.000+03:002008-10-15T20:00:00.000+03:00I'd check among the White Park Cattlehttp://www.an...I'd check among the White Park Cattle<BR/>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/whitepark/pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92225845484090926062008-10-15T07:16:00.000+03:002008-10-15T07:16:00.000+03:00I agree that "it is not proven that there was no h...I agree that "it is not proven that there was no hybridation". <BR/><BR/>The authors say, "we have analysed the ancient DNA of 59 Neolithic skeletal samples". The results would be more conclusive if they'd analysed ancient DNA from West European aurochsen as well as the group Maju suggests. <BR/><BR/>It's almost inconceivable that the odd local wild bull didn't impregnate the odd domestic cow. But people still seem to be obsessed by the idea that evolution is linear. <BR/><BR/>I'd actually look for aurochsen Y-chromosome specifically in jersey cattle. They seem to preserve the main original European aurochs colouration at least.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8314773201918961732008-10-15T05:03:00.000+03:002008-10-15T05:03:00.000+03:00I am confused. Bollognino's study and comparison i...I am confused. Bollognino's study and comparison is good but, if Y2 is also an auroch haplogroup as he suggests, then it is not proven that there was no hybridation. And Gotherstrom's samples still appear to show a good deal of Y1 apparent hybrids, even if concentratd in a small area, and modern European cattle is anyhow dominated by this haplogoup. Bollognino himself finds one of those in a different area: Rumania. <BR/><BR/>If both haplogroups existed in West Asian and European wild cattle before domestication, then nothing can be proven via genetics (except that both populations were extremely close and could interbreed very easily). <BR/><BR/>Therefore the issue of phenotypical growth of European cattle since Starcevo culture remains fully open (and IMO a high probability). <BR/><BR/>Bognollino might have been more conclusive if he had researched preneolithic wild aurochs of West Asia or even very early Neolithic cattle in the same region and found some Y1 there, something that is only speculation so far.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com