tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2369384609150204301..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Back to the drawing board for R-M269 (Busby et al. 2011)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger95125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40600383865584130682011-09-17T14:36:37.446+03:002011-09-17T14:36:37.446+03:00Anatole, what does it mean that “These two individ...Anatole, what does it mean that “These two individuals are separated by 16200 years, if they indeed belong to the same subclade. In this case their common ancestor lived 8100 years ago”? They are 16200 or 8100? Is it the history of Adam and Eve, who seemed 150000 and 60000 years old, and now we have seen, after Cruciani above all, that probably also Adam met Eve when she was yet receptive?<br /><br />These two Italians are both L91+, then have a common ancestor, exactly who had this mutation. When one calculates the MRCA, he takes in considerations at least two individuals, and not one by one side and from the other a Platonic Idea, your GOD-MODAL, modal of what?<br />8100YBP is a good date, in front of the about 4000 years of a traditional old way to date: the double, even though I said that we should have multiply for 2.5 (but DYS19=15 should mean 15-15, then we should add two other mutations to the 38 counted).<br /><br />Now also Ken Nordtvedt is interested to these haplotypes. Let us see what he will draw out.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41028140567228465852011-09-17T07:49:32.874+03:002011-09-17T07:49:32.874+03:00Dear Gioiello,
These two individuals are separate...Dear Gioiello,<br /><br />These two individuals are separated by 16200 years, if they indeed belong to the same subclade. In this case their common ancestor lived 8100 years ago.<br /><br />Your other questions are trivial in the field of chemical kinetics. Every chemical or biological reaction involves zillions of molecules which jumping back and forth, and it does not bother scientists working in the field. Mutations in haplotypes behave the same way, and it should not bother you at all. This is not your professional field, not a big deal.<br />Regards,<br /><br />Anatole KlyosovAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40468010604199325972011-09-12T20:50:13.308+03:002011-09-12T20:50:13.308+03:00Anatole, these are two G2a4 we are discussing abou...Anatole, these are two G2a4 we are discussing about because there is a news (not confirmed) that this could be the Ötzi’s haplogroup. I’d be very glad that you could calculate the MRCA of these two Italians of to-day and explain to me how can you decide how many mutations has had every marker without reconstructing intermediate haplotypes, above all for those markers which rotate around two values and rarely go for the tangent like DYS391.<br /><br />E11979 Savioli UMBERTO SAVIOLI 1907-1976 Italy G2a4 13 22 15 10 14-14 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 30 12-13-15-16 11 12 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-38 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 13 12 12 21-22 18 10 12 12 17 8 13 25 21 15 12 11 14 10 11 11 11 <br />33943 Ricchiazzi Ricchiazzi Italy G2a4 14 22 15-17 10 13-14 11 12 13 13 11 29 18 9-10 11 11 22 16 21 30 14-14-14-16 11 11 20-20 15 14 18 18 33-39 11 10 11 8 16-16 8 13 10 8 12 11 12 19-19 15 10 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 14 11 14 10 11 11 11Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6063878660520603002011-09-12T19:30:25.670+03:002011-09-12T19:30:25.670+03:00Dear GioIello,
This is just a brief description o...Dear GioIello,<br /><br />This is just a brief description of reverse (aka back) mutations. If it is what you have tried to tell us, I have a sad news for you. It is known for years and years, and I have quantitatively described it in my paper in J. Genet. Geneal. In 2009, and provided there a long table which listed corrections for back mutations for <br />hundreds of cases.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />AnatoleAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26497737263466918692011-09-10T08:11:12.827+03:002011-09-10T08:11:12.827+03:00It seems that what I have been saying from many ye...It seems that what I have been saying from many years and is at the basis of my theories begins to be understood:<br /><br />“The exact calculation involves modified Bessel functions. This takes into account all possible mutation routes. I am pretty sure this is not an original result but don't know of any published paper on it (not that I would know where to look). That is, being off by 0 markers might mean that it mutated up once and once back. Being off by two might mean it jumped three in one direction and then back 1. I should say "exact" in quotes. Really this is just a more general model” (Dave Johnson on Rootsweb)Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35671541734675880062011-09-04T05:32:30.776+03:002011-09-04T05:32:30.776+03:00P.S.
George Jones said:
>Please limit your res...P.S.<br /><br />George Jones said:<br />><i>Please limit your response on this forum to 150 words or less</i><br /><br />My dear little friend,<br /><br />There are only two persons here who determine the limit of our comments here: the owner of this blog, and the author, in this case myself. You do not have voice in this particular situation. I do not like to teach you good manners, but you beg for it.<br /><br />Anatole KlyosovAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61676004810006167832011-09-04T02:21:19.946+03:002011-09-04T02:21:19.946+03:00George Jones said...
I am a R-L371+ under M269.
...George Jones said... <br /><br /><i>I am a R-L371+ under M269.</i><br /><br />Well, maybe, however, there is no such a cubclase there as yet. However,ISOGG said - "Added ...L371 ...on 21 March 2011". They seemingly did not add it as yet. <br /> <br />><i>I have learned in my research is that males in this line have a longer lifespan than their generational counterparts over the past 400 years or about 13 to 14 generations.</i><br /><br />Maybe, but it is irrelevant regarding your clade as a whole. <br /><br />Anyway, if you send me the L371 dataset (67 marker haplotypes) I can tell a thing or two about you DNA-relatives. You can find my e-mail address on the net. <br /><br />Anatole Klyosov<br />BostonAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34411753526768229902011-09-04T01:27:35.709+03:002011-09-04T01:27:35.709+03:00In a thread I have on www.worldfamilies.net, Anoth...In a thread I have on www.worldfamilies.net, Another Italian L21?, I wrote:<br /><br />“Why do I hope having found in Soncina (UBTF9) the possible witness of this hypothetical Italian R-L21? Because he has the very rare DYS19=10. Then he has DYS385=11,14 (the modal before the RecLOH), and other modal markers or quasi-modal, but DYS450=10, against the ubiquitous 8, could be a sign”. <br /><br />My hypothesis is that also R-L21 can be born in the Italian Lake region, having in Argiedude, from Como lake, one of the most ancient haplotype of this haplogroup. This hypothetical R-L21 Soncina is from Garda Lake, and he has the very rare DYS450=10. I don’t know if you know that there, in a little town, has been found a mutation which permit to its owner to live till 100 years. For this I am very interested to your case.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60599612080059801772011-09-03T23:47:25.396+03:002011-09-03T23:47:25.396+03:00I am a R-L371+ under M269. The unique STR signatur...I am a R-L371+ under M269. The unique STR signature is 448=17, 456=14, 450=10 with 385a=11 or 12. ISOGG will put this newest sub M269 / sub L21 branch on the haplotree within 2 weeks. One think I have learned in my research is that males in this line have a longer lifespan than their generational counterparts over the past 400 years or about 13 to 14 generations. As an example, my father lived 100 years (1890 to 1990). He had a very specific dietary regimen and a unique physically active job. Family documents and family lore held that we follow a specific marriage pattern in our family to preserve our heritage and I guess from what I can see our gene pool. I am seeking to fund academic research in this area and please tell me on this forum if I did so how it would or wouldn't help in answering some of your questions on the bigger pool of M269 males. Please limit your response on this forum to 150 words or less in a single post and include the sample size needed how you would ID and recruit participants to prepare bulletproof research.George Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13009845249939235493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36311332276225719422011-09-02T18:34:20.632+03:002011-09-02T18:34:20.632+03:00>eurologist said...
>We all know that as l...>eurologist said... <br /><br />><i>We all know that as long as there is insufficient aDNA, we can only draw conclusions from the few data points we have, and from archaeology and history.</i><br /><br />Exactly. That is how science works. <br /><br />Scientists ALWAYS make decisions based on frangmentary information. This is why science is always in development, and never ends. To ridicule science in development is just for very insecure and "restricted" people. Let's remember it. <br /><br />When something contradicts "opinions", and at the same times is based on DATA, particularly on new data, it is great. It should be hailed, not ridiculed. Let's remember it as well. <br /><br />Having said that, back to your comments. <br /> <br /><i>>My view is that archaeology and history teach us that after the advent of agriculture in Europe, there was a lot of continuity...</i><br /><br />No problem with that, though "continuity" should be defined here. After millions of Jews were exterminated in Europe, there was continuity there all right. After 30 million Russians were killed in WWII, and before that about 20 million were killed during the Civil War and by the Stalin gangs(CK, NKVD, GPU, MVD, etc) continuity was all right too. Indeed, Europe was never totally empty for the last 10 kya or so, so continuity was all right. However, as you probably know, I1 in Europe had a severe bottleneck around 3400 ybp. Furthermore, as I have already indicated, the same bottleneck for I1 was in Scandinavia at the same time, however, with quite different base haplotypes. <br /><br />So, how about "continuity"?<br /><br />I can show here HOW difference are Central European/East European/West European I1 base haplotypes vs. Scandinavian base haplotypes, with the same TMRCA at about 3400 ybp. <br /><br />Are we in agreement with the above? If yes, we can continue. If not, give me your reason why not. <br /><br />><i>The Lichtenstein cave data tell us that three haplogroups from 3,000 years ago are still present locally in the same area.</i><br /><br />Please list here the LC haplogroups and tell what is in contradiction with what I am saying here. Look above what dating I gave for I1 haplotypes. If they are NOT in contradiction, why do you even mention it? <br /><br /><i>I am firmly convinced that in many places, not much changed in the past 3,000 years.</i><br /><br />That is great statement. :-))<br />I am all for it. Does it contradict with ANY of my statements? If not, why did you say it? <br /><br /><i>Yes, locally you have e.g. the Slavic expansion - but (at least in my interpretation of the data) the haplogroups involved are only present at the 10% to 20% level...</i><br /><br />Does it contradict with that I am saying? What contradicts specifically, if anything?<br /><br />><i>3,000 years ago, most agree IE was spoken at least from Scandinavia to parts of Italy...</i><br /><br />DATA, please. Do not give me that "most agree" stuff. <br /><br />Not so long ago "most agree" in the French Academy that meteorites do not exist, and they "do not fall from the sky". That was the official verdict of the Academy.<br /><br />By the way, 3000 ybp "the Tenths" (R1a1 with DYS388=10) were in North-Western Europe, apparently. <br /><br />Then, when IE language began to split into branches (presumably in Europe) ~6000 ybp, do you "see" R1b1a2 in Europe? Any DATA, maybe?<br /> <br />><i>What haplotypes did the Celts have? ... of course the question of what sub-groups exactly leads to timing questions that are difficult to answer in detail.</i><br /><br />Be direct - you do not know. It is O.K., nobody knows. I have offered a hypothesis (R1a1) based on their migrations and language. What is wrong with that? If you are really interested in this question, be serious and consider the multitude of DATA. <br /><br /><i>But my best guess is that R1b1a2... with its sub-groups was a huge portion of it, as it is today, next to some R1a and I.</i><br /><br />Please do not give me guesses. Be systematic and weigh different data. As I did. <br /><br />Anatole KlyosovAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23852743770307594532011-09-02T11:51:59.149+03:002011-09-02T11:51:59.149+03:00Anatole,
We all know that as long as there is ins...Anatole,<br /><br />We all know that as long as there is insufficient aDNA, we can only draw conclusions from the few data points we have, and from archaeology and history.<br /><br />My view is that archaeology and history teach us that after the advent of agriculture in Europe, there was a lot of continuity (with some disruptions and migrations, but those would largely not completely replace populations - even when they changed their language, like in Hungary).<br /><br />The Lichtenstein cave data tell us that three haplogroups from 3,000 years ago are still present locally in the same area.<br /><br />I am firmly convinced that in many places, not much changed in the past 3,000 years. Yes, locally you have e.g. the Slavic expansion - but (at least in my interpretation of the data) the haplogroups involved are only present at the 10% to 20% level in many (non-central) Slavic-speaking regions today (e.g., parts of Poland and the Czech Republic). The other R1a there as in Germany and Scandinavia is "older" and was present before (as also in the Lichtenstein cave).<br /><br />3,000 years ago, most agree IE was spoken at least from Scandinavia to parts of Italy, and of course in the Balkans and in Greece - not to mention all the areas to the East.<br /><br />What haplotypes did the Celts have? At their inception, given that they lived in Southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and surrounding regions, my best guess is: roughly the same that there is now... of course the question of what sub-groups exactly leads to timing questions that are difficult to answer in detail. But my best guess is that R1b1a2 with its sub-groups was a huge portion of it, as it is today, next to some R1a and I.<br /><br /><i>It seems that only R1a1 spoke IE languages. Ay any rate, they brought the IE language to India and Iran ~3500 ybp.</i><br /><br />I let Dienekes answer that, if he feels like it.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70780809281534108432011-09-02T08:41:28.469+03:002011-09-02T08:41:28.469+03:00Anatole says: “However, nobody knows which haplogr...Anatole says: “However, nobody knows which haplogroup those Celts had. However, a number of historians place them as migrants from the Russian steppes from ~ 5 century BC. There were no R1b1a2 in the Russian steppes at ~ 5 century BC”.<br /><br />Anatole, you are a friend, but if all your science is like this statement: “Conclusions? Make them yourself”.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48058022071188148122011-09-02T04:12:30.011+03:002011-09-02T04:12:30.011+03:00eurologist said...
Anatole >"Rib1a2 spok...eurologist said... <br /><br />Anatole ><i>"Rib1a2 spoke then a non-IE language(s). They have aquired IE languages not earlier than ~3000 ybp"</i><br /><br />eurologist <i>...put IE at 8,000+ years ago... Celtic languages are generally assumed to be >3,000 years old...<br />Would you kindly explain why R1b1a2 did not speak IE, when almost everyone else did?</i><br /><br />The first statement is generally correct. "8000+ years" is mainly related to assumed Anatolian proto-IE languages, which supposedly were brought to Europe, and about 6000 ybp IE languages started to split to IE branches. <br /><br />If we are in agreement there, I can continue. If we are in disagreement here, please lay out relevant DATA. <br /><br />The second statement, on dating Celtic languages, is inaccurate. Celts (Kelts) are "fixed" in Europe not earlier the 5th century BC. Their language is attested as an IE language. However, nobody knows which haplogroup those Celts had. However, a number of historians place them as migrants from the Russian steppes from ~ 5 century BC. There were no R1b1a2 in the Russian steppes at ~ 5 century BC. However, there were plenty of R1a1 tribes there, and more than 10 R1a1 branches moved to Europe betweeen 2800 and 2500 BC. Conclusions? Make them yourselves. <br /><br />The third statement, "why R1b1a2 did not speak IE, when almost everyone else did?" - is HIGHLY inaccurate. Who were those "almost everyone"? Have you heard on non-IE languages in Europe? Basques, Ibers, Ligurians, Etruscas, and dozens tribes more? Europe in about 5,000-3,000 mainly spoke non-IE languages. Look it up. It seems that only R1a1 spoke IE languages. Ay any rate, they brought the IE language to India and Iran ~3500 ybp.<br /><br />Give me ANY evidence that R1b1a2 spoke an IE language 3500 ybp or earlier.<br /><br />Then we continue. <br /><br />It would be nice to present here DATA, not "conventional wisdom". <br /><br />Anatole KlyosovAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6079948633912214672011-08-31T16:53:34.665+03:002011-08-31T16:53:34.665+03:00Dear Gioiello,
Do not bet too much on single aDNA...Dear Gioiello,<br /><br />Do not bet too much on single aDNAs, Otzi among them. They can be purely accidental. A system is what counts, not singles. Singles might be useful, but they might be very misleading. <br /><br /><i>Iberia lacks ancient clades upstream R-P312* (and this is in contrast with your theory of a migration from Middle East to Spain via North Africa)</i><br /><br />Why is it "in contrast"? Upstream clades are often rare, due to many reasons. Population bottlenecks, for example. Just think, why L11 in Iberia (or elsewhere) has a dating of 4800 ybp, but its downstream, U106 and P312, have ~4200 and 3700 ybp, respectively? Where those 600-1100 years gone in U106 and P312?<br /><br />The most likely answer: a population bottleneck. Do you have a different explanation? But please not a kind of that they were stolen by extraterrestrials. <br /><br />I do not have any other (justified) hypothesis other than L11 had arrived to Iberia, split U106 and P312, and then almost disappeared for several centuries. That is why there are too few survivers of L11, U106 and P312 (and their descendants) in Iberia. The last two have practically started again from their respective survivors around 4000 ybp. <br /><br /><i>Busby’s paper has found two R-M269(x127) amongst Basque</i><br /><br />That is fine. So what? They are/or of L23 and L51, if typed correctly. Descendants of those who survived or who came there later. <br /><br /><i>HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14,12-16,24,11,13,12,15,12,13<br />HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14,13-17,25,11,13,12,15,12,12<br /><br />They belong probably to the same cluster, having single mutations of one around the «modal», the supposed modal of their ancestor.</i><br /><br />You do not have their "modal", whatever it means. In fact, they two are VERY distant haplotypes. Since the mutation rate constant for those 10 marker haplotype is 0.019 mutations per haplotype per 25 years, these two haplotypes are separated by ~6650 years, IF they belong BOTH to either L23, or L51. If they belong one to L23, another to L51, the difference is much larger. That is why those (xS127) are almost meaningless for quantitative analysis. Anyway, they do not "belong to the same cluster". It is an awful stretch. <br /><br /><i>Then probably this Basque R-M269(xS127) isn’t an ancient Basque presence, but entered amongst them in the first centuries AD.</i> <br /><br />Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe 10th century, maybe 4800 ybp, maybe anything. Why to guess?<br /><br /><i>It is little believable that only one has survived.</i><br /><br />One - in the dataset? Or in Iberia? <br /><br />>... <i>if like amongst Jews all the ancestors have less than 2000 years...</i><br /><br />When on Earth did you get THAT?<br /><br /><i>Then this is a case, probably, of many mutations around the modal, and the MRCA of these two haplotypes could be a lot older.</i><br /><br />I do not understand that, however, I would suggest you to talk on the area of your expertise. You make me suffering, what I read THAT stuff, cited above. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Anatole KlyosovAnatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55355944662381615472011-08-31T15:40:43.455+03:002011-08-31T15:40:43.455+03:00It seems that TP03-SIC-W is a “Balkan cluster”, th...It seems that TP03-SIC-W is a “Balkan cluster”, those named “Albanian cluster” by Argiedude. Then: either a Sicilian of Arberesh descent or the witness of the most ancient cluster I linked to Italy. It needs to deepen.<br /><br />2 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >> <br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >> <br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 15 23 12 >><br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 12 11,11 12 12 15 19 16 15 23 12 >><br /><br />2 of 165 Albania [Gheg Albanian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe <br />1 of 400 Sweden [Swedish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe <br />1 of 191 Northern Greece, Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe <br />1 of 96 Wallachia, Romania [Romanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe<br /><br />14 13 29 24 11 11 13 12 12 15 4 >> <br />14 13 29 24 11 12 12 12 12 15 3 >><br />14 13 29 24 11 11 12 12 11 15 1 >> <br />13 13 29 24 11 11 12 12 12 15 0 >> <br /><br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 13 11,13 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >> <br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 13 11,14 12 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >> <br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 14 18 25 13 >> <br />1 14 13 29 24 11 11 13 11,16 12 12 15 19 19 17 23 12 >><br />2 of 200 Novi Sad, Serbia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe <br />1 of 233 Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe <br />1 of 400 Sweden [Swedish] Eurasian - European - Western European EuropeGioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-80603934603979287622011-08-31T14:24:09.407+03:002011-08-31T14:24:09.407+03:00"Rib1a2 spoke then a non-IE language(s). They...<i>"Rib1a2 spoke then a non-IE language(s). They have aquired IE languages not earlier than ~3000 ybp"</i><br /><br />The same methods that brought as haplogroup/type age estimates put IE at 8,000+ years ago. Most northern European archeologists agree that Jastorf (~2,600ya) was early Germanic, with the preceding bronze age (starting ~3,800ya) the formative time that made this IE Germanic.<br /><br />Celtic languages are generally assumed to be >3,000 years old and at least spoken to the west of later Germanic regions of about the same time (if not in western culturally Celtic regions).<br /><br />Would you kindly explain why R1b1a2 did not speak IE, when almost everyone else did?eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58747012094660100312011-08-31T13:08:04.973+03:002011-08-31T13:08:04.973+03:00Take us now in consideration the 3 R-M269(xS127) r...Take us now in consideration the 3 R-M269(xS127) reported by Busby’s from West Sicily:<br /><br />CAS284-SIC-W, M269(xS127) 14,14-16,23,11,13,13,15,12,12<br />TP21-SIC-W,M269(xS127) 14,13-16,24,11,11,12,15,12,12<br />TP03-SIC-W,M269(xS127) 16,13-15,23,10,11,13,15,10,12<br /><br />Excluded the third, clearly an I-M26, the other are true M269(xS127).<br /><br />DYS389I=0,002584<br />DYS390=0,004405<br />DYS392(x2)=0,001488<br />DYS393=0,001119<br /><br />0,011084:5=0,0022168<br />1:0,0022168=451<br />(451x5):20=112,75<br />112,75x32=3608YBP<br /><br />Then these haplotypes are present in West Sicily from at least 3600 years. At least, because it is a little bit reliable that the very slow mutating DYS392 has had two mutation for the tangent (from 13 to 12 and from 12 to 11) and other markers faster mutating are on the “modal”. Then this is a case, probably, of many mutations around the modal, and the MRCA of these two haplotypes could be a lot older.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19441409493117811842011-08-31T10:34:55.967+03:002011-08-31T10:34:55.967+03:00I think we both have expressed our positions and t...I think we both have expressed our positions and the victory between them we’ll be decided by the aDNA, like I and everyone of us think, beginning from the Y of Ötzi, an “Italian” of 5300YBP, that will be communicated on next 20-22 October.<br />To illustrate my positions, and as I have said many times that Iberia lacks ancient clades upstream R-P312* (and this is in contrast with your theory of a migration from Middle East to Spain via North Africa) and as Busby’s paper has found two R-M269(x127) amongst Basque, I’ll use my method for these two haplotypes.<br /><br />HGDP00511 BAS M269(xS127) 14,12-16,24,11,13,12,15,12,13<br />HGDP00515 BAS M269(xS127) 14,13-17,25,11,13,12,15,12,12<br /><br />They belong probably to the same cluster, having single mutations of one around the «modal», the supposed modal of their ancestor.<br /><br />DYS389I=0,002584<br />DYS389II=0,002584<br />DYS390=0,004405<br />DYS439=0,004181<br /><br />0,013754:4=0,0034385<br /><br />1:0,0034385=290,82248<br /><br />(290,82248x4):20=58<br /><br />58x32=1586YB the last generation<br /><br />Then probably this Basque R-M269(xS127) isn’t an ancient Basque presence, but entered amongst them in the first centuries AD. If one says that it could continue a more ancient Basque haplotype, I’d say what I said to Jews: show me more ancient haplotypes in the same area. It is little believable that only one has survived. Of course this doesn’t solve the problem of many different introgressions that other peoples may have had, but if like amongst Jews all the ancestors have less than 2000 years, some suspicious may come.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48558925667402299932011-08-31T00:27:59.371+03:002011-08-31T00:27:59.371+03:00Dear Gioiello,
I love you too :-))
Comments:
1....Dear Gioiello,<br /><br />I love you too :-))<br /><br />Comments:<br /><br />1. Jews in their majority are of the Middle Eastern origin, including many those of haplogroups J1, J2, and R1b1a2 (the last one arose in the proto-Jews ~5500 ybp). <br /><br />2. R1b1 came from Cental Asia. <br /><br />3. R1b1 came via South Ural and nowadays Kazakstan (hence, the Uygurs, Bashkirs, Kazachs, Tuva people, etc. of R1b1b1 and R1b1a2.<br /><br />4. From there R1b1a2 (largely as L23) came via the Caucasus, Anatolia, Middle East and then to Europe by a several routes. I can count three: from Black Sea westward, from Asia Minor, and from the Middle East westward along the Mediterranean to Iberia, to arrive there ~4800 ybp. <br /><br />5. Rib1a2 spoke then a non-IE language(s). They have aquired IE languages not earlier than ~3000 ybp. <br /><br />6. <i>>R-L4 is above all Tuscan</i><br /><br />If it is shown, no problem with that.<br /><br />7. ><i>R-L21... derives from a French around 1000AD</i><br /><br />R-21 is about 4200 years "old", and probably arose in nowadays France (by land) and the Isles (by sea).<br /><br />8. <i>I am more and more convinced that R1b1b2 and R1b1b2a are Italian or Central Mediterranean</i><br /><br />You can call them as you wish. However, always think where did they come from. For example, I am a Bostonian, but I came from Moscow, Russia (albeit a long time ago, almost as long ago as R1b1a2 came to Italy). <br /><br />9.><i>about R1b1/V88+ I have discussed for many years with Sam Vass...</i><br /><br />... and?...<br /><br />10. <i>R-M335 and R1b1b1 probably arose in Western Europe, and I think above all to Italy.</i><br /><br />:-)))<br /><br />O.K. (Between us, girls - it is incorrect), however, have them all. Let it be a gift. <br /><br />11. <i>Eastern R-L23-s are above all Armenians, and Armenians are Indo-Europeans come from the Balkans</i><br /><br />:-)))<br /><br />There are plenty of L23 among Georgians, Dagestanis, and many other Caucasus folks. They did not come from Italy, believe me. <br /><br /><i>12. >What is it wrong in your method... mutations are much more than it seems, then for a long period this calculation is unreliable.</i> <br /><br />:-)))<br /><br />It would be nice if you leave calculations for me. I know what I am doing, believe me. <br /><br />Let me remind you - when you measure inches, feet, and miles (for you - sentimeters, meters and kilometers), you do not use the same measuring tape, aren't you? The same way, when I work with timespans of 20,000 ybp and older, I do not use 67 marker haplotypes. I use the slowest 22 marker ones, which you have no idea about. This is O.K., it is not your specialty. It is my professional area. I wrote textbooks about it, namely on reaction rate constants and how to handle them. Mutations in the DNA are reactions after all, they are ruled by mutation rate constants, and I know how to calculate and interpret them. O.K.? <br /><br />13. <i>...have you calculated a Mutation Rate for each locus, summed them and divided...</i><br /><br />I do not need to do it. When I work with chemical reactions, I also do not consider separate molecules, to sum them and divide them. They are all statistical processes. I can tell you about it later. <br /><br />14. <i>...like the history of the men, who unfortunately or fortunately aren’t like gases.</i><br /><br />In a way, they are. It depends on a problem you are trying to solve. If the problem is of a statistical nature, men behave like gases. It might sounds shocking to you, but even beautiful women behave like gases in some (statistical) situations.Anatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51383839936125260982011-08-30T14:23:15.940+03:002011-08-30T14:23:15.940+03:00Dear Anatole, I want to say that not only I have n...Dear Anatole, I want to say that not only I have nothing against Bashkirs and I wouldn’t consider to come from them like a shame, but that I like Russians too and about you I can say that you are a great scholar in your field and have written also ponderous papers about genetic genealogy and I don’t mind where they were published. You are without any doubt a great worker and have all my respect. I too have written a lot in my field (books of poetry and critics) and about genetic genealogy I have written a lot on those forums that didn’t ban me, above all here on Dienekes’ and Worldfamilies. But in other two forums (not considering others where I wrote less) I had written at least 2500 postings. This for saying that I too have done my researches, and I cannot now to say in a few words all that. The ht35 project was of Vizachero’s, who was my worst enemy and probably the cause of my banishments. Where is he now? Under his plants. If his design has been defeated, something will mean. He was on your line: to demonstrate that R1b1b2 came from Middle East to justify the Middle Eastern origin of many Jews. Now I have demonstrated that many of them are European: R-L4 is above all Tuscan (see 1000 Genomes Projec)t; R-L21, the Baltic cluster of Rich Stevens, derives from a French around 1000AD; Ted Kandell is now searching for his G2c in France; I am more and more convinced that R1b1b2 and R1b1b2a are Italian or Central Mediterranean; about R1b1/V88+ I have discussed for many years with Sam Vass, a friend; I have said many times that neither J1 and J2 are sure, and I don’t want to be pitiless over.<br />I think having demonstrated that R1b1b2/M269 couldn’t be derived from the Eastern R1b1*, presupposing YCAII=18-22 or 18-23, and the Eastern ones have a RecLOH above all 23-23. Not only, but I have written that also R-M335 and R1b1b1 probably arose in Western Europe, and I think above all to Italy. Neither your R1a… is surely Eastern, because R1a-M420 is above all in Europe, Eastern but also Western, including Italy, and I found a plenty of them in the British Isles (presupposed of course: we should test them for this SNP). Eastern R-L23-s are above all Armenians, and Armenians are Indo-Europeans come from the Balkans: they were linked above all to Greeks, and a recent paper on Caucasian peoples, those who live in isolate regions, hasn’t found R1b1b2: if it was expanded from Asia Minor we should have found a plenty of it.<br />What is it wrong in your method, beyond what I have said (mutations around the modal, convergence to the modal as time passes, artifice of a modal itself, etc.)? Then: mutations are much more than it seems, then for a long period this calculation is unreliable. For a short period (in this case I use it too), when mutations are a few and probably mostly of one around the “modal” (but not an abstract modal, but the true values of “that” ancestor), in the cases of 25 markers you spoke above, have you calculated a Mutation Rate for each locus, summed them and divided for the makers taken in consideration to obtain the average MR? As you can see, the variables are too much and are aleatory, like the history of the men, who unfortunately or fortunately aren’t like gases.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72646441417125473372011-08-30T02:19:23.906+03:002011-08-30T02:19:23.906+03:00Gioiello said...
This for saying that these L23+...Gioiello said... <br /><br /><i>This for saying that these L23+ come probably from Italy... and I think having demonstrated in all these years that Iberia lacks the R1b’s haplogroups upstream R-P312*, and for this I have always supported that Iberia wasn’t the refugium of R1b.</i><br /><br />Dear Gioiello,<br /><br />First of all, not only Iberia, but Europe as a whole has relatively few haplotypes of subclades upstream of P312. Iberia is not an exception. Then, nobody claims, as far as I know, that Iberia was "a refugium of R1b".<br /><br />If you take a look at the ht35 Project, you see that the whole Project contains only 16 haplotypes M269*, 100 of L23*, 15 of L51*, and 25 of L11*. This is a drop in a bucket. Compare with thousands of haplotypes of downstream subclades in other Projects. <br /><br />L23 could not posssibly arose in Italy. Italy was a passing region for R1b1a2 around 5000-4500 ybp which were moving from Asia Minor (5500-6000 ybp) and Middle East (5500-6000 ybp) to Europe. There are plenty of L23 in the Caucasus and Anatolia, all with 6000 ybp. They were moving South and then West, to Europe. <br /><br />L51 had a much better chance to arose in Europe, since it is a downstream of L23.Anatole Klyosovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09562969047293724366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71351526655318233712011-08-29T15:43:50.129+03:002011-08-29T15:43:50.129+03:00Let me say something, because perhaps the only her...Let me say something, because perhaps the only here who is L23+ am I.<br /><br />Jeanlohizun says: “But it gets even more interesting, out of 8 Swiss (n=33) carrying R1b-M269 (xS127) 6 are carrying the DYS393=12”.<br /><br />The link between Italian L23-s and the Swiss ones is known from so long by us, I’d say not only Swiss persons, but of the Rhine Valley, of the British Isles themselves, for not saying the Ashkenazic Jews who, I think, come from these places. Not only: I found in the past that also the Italian R1b1a2/YCAII=17-23 had some persons till Switzerland and the Rhaetian Region.<br />I have spent some money lately to test an American of Swiss descent (Flickinger/Flückiger) for S136 (my private SNP), because I calculated that we have a MRCA in the first centuries AD. The interesting thing is that these Flickingers come from Weissenburg, the Roman Biriciana, where Roman troops stayed on the “Limes”. We could hypothesize a common Roman-Etruscan origin. The Flickingers haven’t this mutation, nor the Ashkenazic Jews line of Dubinsky, linked to me at the level of the 8th century.<br />Nor have this mutation my cousin’s husband Giorgio Tognarelli, found R1b1a2a/L23+ at 23andme and whom I am testing for 37Y at FTDNA.<br />This for saying that these L23+ come probably from Italy and are linked to me and I think having demonstrated in all these years that Iberia lacks the R1b’s haplogroups upstream R-P312*, and for this I have always supported that Iberia wasn’t the refugium of R1b.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1987366595525613242011-08-29T12:55:55.014+03:002011-08-29T12:55:55.014+03:00As far as I know, at least in Northern Spain there...<i>As far as I know, at least in Northern Spain there weren’t any massive graves or signs of population replacements dating back to 3,000 to 4,000 years ago.</i><br /><br />The same is true in much of Europe. The most tumultuous time in <b>central/northern Europe</b> after introduction of agriculture was the break-up of LBK. And even then, it was more of a formation of regional groups and establishment of/from the fringes rather than some influence from way outside. After that, this region has maintained cultural continuity <i>separately</i> and simultaneously in three different zones: (i) north from the alps up to the mountains that drain into the Danube (Mittelgebirge), (ii)from there to the coast, and then (iii) southern Scandinavia: <br /><br />common corded ware/chalcolithic (tumulus; 4,800ya) --> early bronze age in central/northern Europe (4,300ya) --><br /><br />(i) middle bronze age (3600ya; tumulus) --> central urnfield 3300ya ~ Hallstadt --> La Tene<br /><br />(ii)tumulus --> northern urnfield --> Jastorf<br /><br />(iii) nordic bronze age (3800ya; tumulus) --> nordic iron age<br /><br />Each area shows strong cultural continuity during those times, with strong trade between them and cultural influences <i>always</i> moving (slowly) south to north.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18268980390968475252011-08-29T10:28:55.448+03:002011-08-29T10:28:55.448+03:00Anatole Klyosov said:
t me guess what you wanted t...Anatole Klyosov said:<br /><i>t me guess what you wanted to say (if anything). Since R1b-M269(xS127) is essentially R-L23 (that with mainly DYS393=12 unlike largely DYS393=13 in Europe), you imply that L23 is the oldest one in Central Europe ("highest variance"), and, therefore, it could not come from Anatolia. And, as you say, it could not come from Iberia either. <br /><br />Am I right with my guess? Is that you wanted to say?<br /><br />If so, you are wrong. First, nobody says that L23 came from Iberia. Not me, at any rate. L23 is one of my favorite subclades, and I know a lot about it. There are VERY many of L23 in the Caucasus, in Anatolia, and in the Middle East, and in all the three locations it is around 6,000 years "old". There are some L23 in the Balkans, apparently, from Anatolia, and maybe partly from nowadays Russia, where is also a good amount of L23. About 30% of the Russian R1b1a2 have DYS393=12. There is a little fraction of those in Iberia. There is not much of them in Europe.</i><br />Is funny you were complaining about aggressiveness before, yet you are very aggressive yourself. Anyhow, in Busby et al(2011) they tested for R1b-M269(xL11) not for R1b-M269(xL23) thus there is no way in telling how much of it is R1b-M269(XL23) and how much is R1b-L23. In any case the main point taken, is that in a dataset which included both Anatolian, Middle Eastern populations, and Europeans the one that achieve the highest variance in R1b-L23 was a population from Central Europe. Thus it doesn’t take a genius to realize that higher variance=older TMRCA, so there goes your argument. <br />Here is something interesting they(Busby et al(2011)) feature 6 French Basques from HGDP, which can be seen in the excel file on the supplementary info. The French Basques had 2 people having R1b-M269 (xS127) which can be seen in Table-S1. Guess what DYS393 was for the two French Basques having R1b-M269 (xS127)? You guessed it DYS393=12. So did it get there from Anatolia too or from Russia? Or how about the 2 samples from England Central, 2 samples carrying R1b-M269 (xS127), the two of them also carrying DYS393=12. The same goes for France 2 carrying R1b-M269 (xS127) the two also carrying DYS393=12. But it gets even more interesting, out of 8 Swiss (n=33) carrying R1b-M269 (xS127) 6 are carrying the DYS393=12.jeanlohizunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00216848866144458976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13710329902494857282011-08-29T09:52:19.964+03:002011-08-29T09:52:19.964+03:00I did not realize that by double post you meant a ...<i>I did not realize that by double post you meant a quotation. </i><br /><br />To double post is to post two posts in a row. For example, you just triple posted.<br /><br />I can tolerate the occasional double post, but everyone should make an effort to combine all their thoughts and respond to everyone in a _single_ comment, and only break it into two comments if they absolutely have to.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.com