tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post2265076262434328597..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Aristotle at Mont Saint-MichelDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25815053616978575842016-01-25T18:32:53.399+02:002016-01-25T18:32:53.399+02:00Many leftist are butthurt that their beloved musli...Many leftist are butthurt that their beloved muslims all come from backwards countries, and thus have rewritten history to exaggerate the influence as well as ability of arabs and muslims in general.<br /><br />Gouguenheim is not the only one who is speaking the truth, Rodney Stark in "God's Battalions" has identified the muslim world as backwards and hostile to education as well. And don't forget Michael H. Hart's HBD-aware "Understanding Human History", in which he rightly labels the arabian civilization as backwards.<br /><br />Richard Millet, a french author, also lamented the fact that in France there is a kind of revisionism going on as regards arabian history, overvaluing the importance that arab played in Europe's history.<br /><br />All in all we should fight these cultural marxists, and Gouguenheim is a first step. The german edition has a very politically correct afterword. They don't take into account and technical ability at all, unlike Hart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59277518523809691772009-10-13T18:55:34.442+03:002009-10-13T18:55:34.442+03:00Ok, I see. Nothing too different from what I could...Ok, I see. Nothing too different from what I could do in Spanish, for example:<br /><br />escribir: to write<br />escritor: writer<br />escribiendo: writing (verb form)<br />escritura: writing (noun)<br />escritorio: piece of furniture for writing<br />escribano: scribe, secretary<br />escrito (noun): writ, text<br />escrito (verb): written<br /><br />However Spanish will use more varied roots for these variants, like Lat. "librus" (book): libro (book), librería (book shop), librero (book shoopkeeper), librajo (despicable book), librazo (great book), etc., or Greek "biblos" (book): biblioteca (library), bibliotecario (librarian), etc., or even Spanish "carta" (letter): cartero (postman), cartón (paperboard), cartilla (book used to learn how to write by children), cartulina (card stock), etc. <br /><br />The concept is the same anyhow and I'm sure it happens in all languages one way or another.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-3988012796987546242009-10-13T12:32:03.980+03:002009-10-13T12:32:03.980+03:00Actually,there is 2 distinct languages called anci...Actually,there is 2 distinct languages called ancient south Arabian and ancient north Arabian which to modern Arabic are somehow as the position of French and Italian to castellan but modern Modern Arabic is (surely) at least 1600 years' old and remains very intelligible(but distinct) with "proto Arabic" early inscriptions of 1st century BC.<br /><br />It's true that eastern Arabs have much difficulties to understand Moroccan and Algerian Arabic due mainly to French superstratum&Berber substratum so they use standard arabic to understand each other clearly.<br /><br /><br />Afrasian and Indo-European are both inflective languages which share many common grammatical and lexical elements.<br />For example:<br />Nominative Greek is tauros<br />Nominative Arabic is thawron<br />Accusative Arabic is thawran<br />Genetive Arabic is thawrin<br /><br />Dual ancient Greek=tawrin<br />Dual Arabic=thawrayn<br /><br />The word formation of Arabic is inflective and not agglutinative(that's why the derived words are not as long as in deutsch)<br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection#Arabic_.28fusional.29<br />"Arabic (اللغة العربية الفصحى, "Al-Luġah al-‘Arabiyyah al-Fuṣḥā"), or more precisely "Modern Standard Arabic" (also called "Literary Arabic"), is a highly-inflected language. It uses a complex system of pronouns and their respective prefixes and suffixes for verb, noun, adjective and possessive conjugation. In addition, the system known as al-‘Irāb places vowel suffixes on each verb, noun, adjective, and adverb, according to its function within a sentence and its relation to surrounding words.[4]"<br /><br />Example:from the root "KTB"<br />katib=writer<br />kitaba=writing<br />maktaba=bibliotheque<br />maktab=writing desk<br />katibe=dactylo<br />kotbiyye=book store<br />kutayyib=small book<br />maktub=letter<br />inkitab=be written<br />istiktab=the action of making someone write<br />iktitab=to write to each other mutually<br />miktab=writing tool<br />kottab=elementary school<br />kuwaytib=small novelist(pejorative)<br />and so onashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47872146270211329262009-10-13T00:15:45.185+03:002009-10-13T00:15:45.185+03:00Sorry,it seems that Deutsch is not an agglutinativ...<i>Sorry,it seems that Deutsch is not an agglutinative language</i>. <br /><br />Neither is Basque but both languages use agglutinative style when making new words out of others (or their roots). English does too but to a much lesser extent, Romances are generally incapable of doing that. <br /><br />I suppose this is what you mean happens in Arabic too.<br /><br /><i>Where have you read that Arabic dialects are not itelligible,this is simply NOT TRUE</i>. <br /><br />Wikpedia - Arabic language: "Colloquial Arabic is a collective term for the spoken varieties of Arabic used throughout the Arab world, which differ radically from the literary language. The main dialectal division is between the North African dialects and those of the Middle East (...). Speakers of some of these dialects are unable to converse with speakers of another dialect of Arabic. In particular, while Middle Easterners can generally understand one another, they often have trouble understanding North Africans (although the converse is not true, in part due to the popularity of Middle Eastern—especially Egyptian—films and other media).<br /><br />This is (more or less) like a Spanish speaker can easily understand Italian and Portuguese but have major trouble with Sicilian or Romanian. All are "colloquial Latin" forms. <br /><br /><i>There is only one Arabic standard language tought in schools and in medias</i>... <br /><br />Once upon a time there was also only one Latin language taught in monasteries and recited in churches... but that did not impede linguistic evolution or diversification ultimately. <br /><br /><i>Quran will prevent the formation of non intelligible dialects</i>.<br /><br />The Vulgata (Latin version of the Bible) did not prevent the formation of Romances. Latin was still used in religious ceremonies some decades ago, even if virtually no one understood anything, within the Catholic Church but eventually the hierarchy realized it was just meaningless and suppressed it, formally accepting the death of Latin, more than 2000 years after it was first written. <br /><br /><i>Afrasian is relatively recent phylum(12-10 ky)along with other nostratic languages(especially indo-european)</i>.<br /><br />That's what I meant before: Nostratic is a highly conjectural family and Afroasiatic has since long been removed from it anyhow. The only thing that really remains as rather solid of the proposed (and dismissed) Nostratic superfamily is Indo-Uralic, though it might well be just a sprachbund issue, rather than a true family. In either case, it supports the origin of PIE at the Urals and not in Anatolia. <br /><br /><i>Also modern Arabic is 2100 years' old and not 1800 years</i>. <br /><br />I take note but is it "modern Arabic" or rather "ancient Arabic"? I can only imagine that even Mohammed himself would have some difficulty understanding that, not to mention a modern dialectal speaker.<br /><br /><i>It's an answer to mr Ponto statement.<br /><br />"the Arabic dialect of Muhammad is just a tribal argot of primitive Middle Easterners living in primitive conditions with limited intellect and intelligence. The Semitic languages are intellectually stifling and incapable of making more than mundane achievements"</i>. <br /><br />Which I agree is pure ignorant bigotry of the worst class.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21644399884306209372009-10-12T23:10:47.446+03:002009-10-12T23:10:47.446+03:00It's an answer to mr Ponto statement.
"t...It's an answer to mr Ponto statement.<br /><br />"the Arabic dialect of Muhammad is just a tribal argot of primitive Middle Easterners living in primitive conditions with limited intellect and intelligence. The Semitic languages are intellectually stifling and incapable of making more than mundane achievements"ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81667434488084521842009-10-12T23:07:59.964+03:002009-10-12T23:07:59.964+03:00What does all this linguistic stuff have to do wit...What does all this linguistic stuff have to do with the topic of the post?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35902115346825505352009-10-12T22:53:53.875+03:002009-10-12T22:53:53.875+03:00"Your forum thread is nothing but a curious c..."Your forum thread is nothing but a curious collection of ancient pictures and modern ones representing ancient beliefs."<br /><br /><br />Please look at depiction of Semitic Atra-Hasis(Arabic 'attar-asshama'in)<br /><br />http://www.indraz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sumerian_symbology-ashurs-winged-disc.jpg<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra_Hasis<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atarsamain<br /><br />And then to the one of indo-european Ahuramazda<br /><br />http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/ahura_mazda.jpg<br /><br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahuramazda<br />They are mostly the same(also the ethonyms are very close)ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9525547799594712372009-10-12T22:34:49.452+03:002009-10-12T22:34:49.452+03:00It sould be 1600(instead of 1800) and Nabatean(ins...It sould be 1600(instead of 1800) and Nabatean(instead of nabaean).ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69106143116299627242009-10-12T22:32:06.278+03:002009-10-12T22:32:06.278+03:00Sorry,it seems that Deutsch is not an agglutinativ...Sorry,it seems that Deutsch is not an agglutinative language.<br /><br />Also modern Arabic is 2100 years' old and not 1800 years.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabic_inscriptions#Pre-Islamic_Arabic_inscriptions<br /><br />"Qaryat Al-Faw [1] Wadi ad-Dawasir, Nejd 1st century BC 10 lines in Arabic Epigraphic South Arabian alphabets A tomb dedicatory and a prayer to Lāh, Kāhil and ʻaṯṯār to protect the tomb "<br /><br /><br />Imru' al Qays poem dates to 6th century<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imru%27_al-Qais<br /><br />The ambiguity rises from the fact that the poem of Imru' al Qays is one of the first written in ARABIC ALPHABET whereas older ARABIC inscriptions were in Nabaean,Aramean,old south Arabian alphabets.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46693380890069879502009-10-12T20:56:35.953+03:002009-10-12T20:56:35.953+03:003/Basque and German(possible uralic substraum)are ...3/Basque and German(possible uralic substraum)are agglutinative languages with very long words in contrary of Arabic which allows making hundred of short derivations from a same root.<br /><br /><br />5/GREEK IS NOT INTELLIGIBLE WITH ANCIENT GREEK(ACCORDING TO 2 GREEK FRIENDS).<br />Where have you read that Arabic dialects are not itelligible,this is simply NOT TRUE.<br />Arabic in written form is some 1800years old(Imru' al Qays poems)and not 1400.<br />There is only one Arabic standard language tought in schools and in medias same as standard French/Greek/Bask/Persian/Turkish/Italian/German with their different dialects <br />Quran will prevent the formation of non intelligible dialects.<br /><br />6/Muslim Iranians also dont worship ahura-mazda but Tanit is still a folkloric element in Tunisia-east algeria where it becames a sort of "rain godess"(in periods of drought children make a statue of it and keep dancing) <br /><br /><br /><br />*/Finally I was speaking of most ancient written forms of languages and not most ancient languages(Khoisanic could well be the most ancient language family still in use)<br />Afrasian is relatively recent phylum(12-10 ky)along with other nostratic languages(especially indo-european)<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts<br />Afro-Asiatic: since about the 28th c. BC <br />28th c. BC: Egyptian <br />24th c. BC: Semitic (Eblaite, Akkadian) <br />16th c. BC: West Semitic (Canaanite) <br /><br />**/I think you know that closest language to Semitic is Egyptian<br />http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/8488/Afro-Asiatic-languages<br />And that Egyptian copts(Not muslim Egyptians who have a great muslim berber,caucasian.. admixture)have up to 39%(13/33) J1 <br />http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/Hassan-Sudan-2008-AJPA.pdfashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33551121486162130752009-10-12T16:14:08.112+03:002009-10-12T16:14:08.112+03:00(cont.)
3. I said Basque and German, not English....(cont.)<br /><br />3. I said Basque and German, not English. <br /><br />4. Useless because I do not understand Arabic beyond a handful of very basic words (la, shukran, wahid, hamza, sitta, chai). <br /><br />5. Dienekes or other people with better knowledge of Greek will answer you better but I understand that Modern and Classic Greek are to a large extent mutually intelligible. Arabic has been artificially fossilized by the hybridation of religious and linguistic conservatism but that is anyhow only a patch and evolution will unavoidably break Arabic in pieces sooner than later (Arab dialects are already in fact nearly different languages, hardly mutually intelligible). Mecca Arabic is only 1300 years old, so the best comparison is a modern Romance with a Medieval Romance if anything (or modern Greek with late Byzantine Greek). <br /><br />6. Iranians are not Arabs and, sure, they have managed to hold back some of their ancient traditions. I doubt anyone worships Tanit anymore. Your forum thread is nothing but a curious collection of ancient pictures and modern ones representing ancient beliefs.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81550222301388161932009-10-12T16:00:52.438+03:002009-10-12T16:00:52.438+03:00Ashraf:
1. Ok, maybe (or maybe they are just remn...Ashraf:<br /><br />1. Ok, maybe (or maybe they are just remnants of a common Neolithic pre-Semitic heritage). Did you also invent the flute and the txalaparta? <br /><br />2.a. I don't agree with the Anatolian origin hypothesis for IE and we have discussed it elsewhere recently in this blog. That IE (which is not the same as English) has some loanwords from the Neolithic peoples of West Asia is no wonder, IMO, but that doesn't prove they are Semitic. <br /><br />2.b. Are you sure that all your list is valid? <br /><br />AFAIK Ishtar is an ancient goddess of love among several Semitic peoples of West Asia and hence a common name for planet Venus, aka morning/evening star. <br /><br />AFAIK your particular version of three in "Semitic" is just one among several. The name ranges from thala/tlata to shalash/sost. Akkadian was shalash for instance, hardly related to PIE *treyes. I'd even dare to say that Basque hiru looks more alike (though not much more). <br /><br />As for English and its Celtic substrate there is an old, never confirmed, hypothesis that claims that the Atlantic Islands had a Semitic substrate. The main argument however is a grammatic peculiarity not found in IE or Basque but shared with other languages of West Asia like Turkish. It may be somehow connected but not truly Semitic, just that some people don't seem able to look too deep into these issues (for example I have read no one researching the possibility it could be something like Berber instead of Semitic, what would be more logical). <br /><br />But, in any case, linguists have for some time considered the possibility that IE and Afroasiatic (of which Semitic is just a branch) could be related and the conclusions are highly inconclusive if not negative. <br /><br />Arbitrary lists of words like the one you use are highly laughed upon by linguists, not just because loanwords do exist but also because sound coincidences are way too common. The somewhat questioned mass-comparison method uses Swadesh lists that are pre-determined in their meanings and not just random lists of accidentally coincident words, that are totally useless and misleading.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88348695793960945432009-10-12T13:44:00.282+03:002009-10-12T13:44:00.282+03:00First of all thank you for your constructive answe...First of all thank you for your constructive answers albeit my comment was a little bit harsh because it was direceted to mr ponto though my aim is not a childish "who is best" rhetoric but only exposing some ignored facts.<br /><br />1/Many music instruments used by Europeans have been invented by ancient semites(santur,harp,tanbur...)<br />http://www.visualbiblealive.com/image-bin/Public/045/03/045_03_0047_VOT2_prev.jpg<br /><br />2/Indoeuropeans languages are most likely Originated in Anatolia and first proto-indoeuropeans are most likely J2 haplotype carriying,west nostratic(or lislakh=inflective+apophonic proto afrasian+proto indoeuropean families)speaking peoples.<br />Example=<br />Semitic haush(=farmer house)/English house<br />Semitic ishtar/English star<br />Semitic thle/English three<br />Semitic anaku,aku/Greek egho<br />Semitic shiya/English she<br />Semitic atta/English thou<br />Semitic ardh/English earth<br />Semitic fudh/English foot<br />Semitic saq/English thigh<br />Semitic qafa/Latin caput<br />Semitic ayn/English eye<br />Semitic odhn/Indoeuropean ous(ear)<br />Semitic asfur/English sparrow<br />Semitic gawesh/English cow<br />Semitic waz/English goose<br />Semitic baqara/English buck<br />Semitic zledj/English sleigh<br />Semitic qata/English cut<br />etc etc...<br /> <br />For more data you can read my subject here in DNA forums site<br />http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=8079<br /><br />3/If I look at an English dictionnary I can not find so many words derived from the "WRT" root but Arabic do.<br /><br />4/I recommand you to simply listen this Arabic song and this Arabic religious videos<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7noDeKFfI<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyWIa_caH70<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYLmfpOrMeA<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sKbXvnImuY<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbA33Gy3pqY<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQj_eewMv-s<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iu5IcycUd4<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfcwqb3QFDQ<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQyw5kpb6k<br /><br /><br />If you are going to say that songs are different from daily speech so you can listen to this video.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX8Fi0Q50VM<br /><br />5/The problem is that modern Greek is not intelligible with ancient Greek whereas modern Arabic is still perfectly intelligible with ancient Arabic.(the 7 poems in Mecca blackstone).<br /><br />6/Arabs stille have pre-islam customs and folklore<br />Example:Semitic atra-hasis/indoeuropean ahura-mazda<br />Semitic and Arab dhu-shara/Greek Zeus/Iranian Zoroasther<br />Semitic kuribu/Indo-european Griffin<br />Semitic tanit/Greek Diana<br />Semitic akitu/Iranian newroz<br />etc etc...<br />You could look at my subject here<br />http://www.algerie-dz.com/forums/bouillon-de-culture/133175-gratte-un-iranien-persan-tu-trouveras-un-semite-babylonien.htmlashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51266360799272003692009-10-12T13:43:22.840+03:002009-10-12T13:43:22.840+03:001/Including pork? Sorry but the joke was way too o...1/Including pork? Sorry but the joke was way too obvious. I don't think my ancestral food, music or dance is "Semitic" in any way. <br /><br /><br />2/As far as I know my languages (Basque, Indoeuropean) are not from the Middle East but one local and the other from Russia/Khazakstan. <br /><br /><br />3/You can do that kind of stuff in german or Basque too. Not any wonder. Agglutinative languages like those of Siberia and Native Americans are even much more synthetic. <br /><br /><br />4/That's something most Westerners won't agree with. When I hear Arabic is like someone coughing all the time (HH sound, you know). Of course it's a matter of likes. Wehn I think of a melodic language I think in something like French or Italian in fact. But you can make a parody of Arabic by just "speaking" something like HHaLaHHaLaLaLaHHaHHaLa (the L sound is also very common). <br /><br />5/Erm, the owner of this blog is Greek. Greek has been in use for quite more than that (at least 2700 years). Basque has also been in use probably for much longer than Arabic. But this is ultimately a question of dialectality and languageevolution anyhow, as no language remains static and is still alive. <br /><br /><br />6/That depends of the viewpoint. One could well argue that Islam and the subsequent Arabization uniformized way too many cultures in a way too similar to the McDonalization of today. Egyptians have not kept their ancestral culture precisely because they became Arabs for example. I don't think Islam is a way of culture preservation except of preservation of Islamic culture, which is not the same as ancestral Arab: where are the gods that ancient Arabs venerated? Where are the customs that Arabs had before Mohammed? All lost in a uniformizing dogma.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8142657969714870842009-10-09T03:20:46.014+03:002009-10-09T03:20:46.014+03:00"don't wonder if Talibans bombed Buddhas&..."don't wonder if Talibans bombed Buddhas". <br /><br />I was reasonably sympathetic to the Taliban until they committed that barbaric act of vandalism.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-55467074648002677312009-10-07T21:11:14.951+03:002009-10-07T21:11:14.951+03:00You have some points, Ashraf but I must disagree w...You have some points, Ashraf but I must disagree with the following:<br /><br /><i>Your religions are semite(Judaism,Christianity or Islam)</i>.<br /><br />Most Westerners today are atheist/agnostic/something else (Buddhist, Pagan, Pantheist or whatever).<br /><br /><i>Your civilisation(music,food..)is semitic</i>. <br /><br />Including pork? Sorry but the joke was way too obvious. I don't think my ancestral food, music or dance is "Semitic" in any way. <br /><br /><i>Caucasoid first appears in Yemen and all European haplotypes(R1,I,J,E)have for origin the middle-east</i>. <br /><br />The second half of the sentence is partly correct (though R1 probably arose in India/Pakistan, E is Afican and I may be originally European) but I don't think Yemen has to do with any ancestral Caucasoid. in fact I suspect Yemen was thinly populated until recently. Another thing is Palestine, Syria, Turkey, etc. that of course are very much at the origins of Europeans and Caucasoids in general. <br /><br /><i>Your languages are from mideast(Anatolia)with many word and grammatical borrowings from semitic</i>. <br /><br />As far as I know my languages (Basque, Indoeuropean) are not from the Middle East but one local and the other from Russia/Khazakstan. <br /><br /><i>I think you know that from a single Arabic root we can make at least 178 words</i>.<br /><br />You can do that kind of stuff in german or Basque too. Not any wonder. Agglutinative languages like those of Siberia and Native Americans are even much more synthetic. <br /><br /><i>Also Arabic has the pecularity of being melodic</i>...<br /><br />That's something most Westerners won't agree with. When I hear Arabic is like someone coughing all the time (HH sound, you know). Of course it's a matter of likes. Wehn I think of a melodic language I think in something like French or Italian in fact. But you can make a parody of Arabic by just "speaking" something like HHaLaHHaLaLaLaHHaHHaLa (the L sound is also very common). <br /><br /><i>Besides all Arabic is perhaps the most ancient language still in use(nearly 1800 years old)</i>. <br /><br />Erm, the owner of this blog is Greek. Greek has been in use for quite more than that (at least 2700 years). Basque has also been in use probably for much longer than Arabic. But this is ultimately a question of dialectality and languageevolution anyhow, as no language remains static and is still alive. <br /><br /><i>First written languages (except Sumerian)are Semitic</i>...<br /><br />Ancient Egyptian is not Semitic, Chinese is not Semitic. <br /><br /><i>Only Arabs have kept their traditions and cultures,Europe is now a hip-hop american black inculture with all peoples and things looking the same</i>.<br /><br />That depends of the viewpoint. One could well argue that Islam and the subsequent Arabization uniformized way too many cultures in a way too similar to the McDonalization of today. Egyptians have not kept their ancestral culture precisely because they became Arabs for example. I don't think Islam is a way of culture preservation except of preservation of Islamic culture, which is not the same as ancestral Arab: where are the gods that ancient Arabs venerated? Where are the customs that Arabs had before Mohammed? All lost in a uniformizing dogma. <br /><br />But, well, you do have some points anyhow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75999160351244573332009-10-07T20:02:44.292+03:002009-10-07T20:02:44.292+03:00Your religions are semite(Judaism,Christianity or ...Your religions are semite(Judaism,Christianity or Islam)<br />Your civilisation(music,food..)is semitic.<br />Your alphabet is semitic(from semitic sinatic alphabet)<br />Caucasoid first appears in Yemen and all European haplotypes(R1,I,J,E)have for origin the middle-east.<br />Your languages are from mideast(Anatolia)with many word and grammatical borrowings from semitic.<br />Finally,you should know that 13 th century Lisan al Arab dictionary contains some 4,5 mln words and if we add modern neologisms and dialectal words this will made 5 mln words which is far much than English 1,5 mln words.<br />I think you know that from a single Arabic root we can make at least 178 words.<br />Also Arabic has the pecularity of being melodic,phonetical flexible with many tones,and containing most world language sounds(except V,P sound is present in some words,like sapt=saturday but written B and G sound is very present in dialectal Arabic)<br />Besides all Arabic is perhaps the most ancient language still in use(nearly 1800 years old)<br />First written languages (except Sumerian)are Semitic and first laws(Hammurabi),epics(Gelgamesh,Atra hasis..)and wonders(Babylon and babylon gardens)are semitic.<br />Also music instruments(Santur,Luth,Harp)are semitic.<br />The Arabs have hot,joyful,naive temperament with beautiful,med hot physics and not european frigid faces and temperaments.<br />Middle-eastern peoples brought civilisation and agriculture to Europe.<br />Only Arabs have kept their traditions and cultures,Europe is now a hip-hop american black inculture with all peoples and things looking the same.<br /><br />By attacking Arabs,Islam and Jews you are in fact attacking and destructing greeks(who are more culturally and physically akin to middleastern arabs than to nordic vikings)and yourselves.ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17889875526565442342009-09-30T05:46:31.946+03:002009-09-30T05:46:31.946+03:00We are all better served when we avoid replacing o...We are all better served when we avoid replacing one exaggerated historical notion with another. We can deconstruct cliches about early Islamic civilization without resorting to Hellenic chauvinism and Islamophobia.formerjerseyboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12359486237718341127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1748291655208836162009-09-28T17:08:01.854+03:002009-09-28T17:08:01.854+03:00Greece waking up from her Dark Ages due to influen...<i>Greece waking up from her Dark Ages <b>due to</b> influence from the preliterate Hallstatt culture. </i><br /><br />Are you hearing voices, now? Who said that?<br /><br />And since when does writing define a culture? Philosophers are great at condensing general sentiment in their surroundings and formed by their environment in words and, more recently, in writing. This has happened successfully in Europe for at least three thousand years.<br /><br />They are also good at creating constructs that may be useful, insightful, and innovative --- but that more often than not are so remote from the grasp of the general population that they have zero impact.<br /><br />A more general world view or sentiment has never exclusively relied on philosophers nor the written language, but yet has dominated multiple cultures with a very homogeneous set of ideas and themes in Europe.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32129360541753252272009-09-28T11:37:54.365+03:002009-09-28T11:37:54.365+03:00Greece waking up from her Dark Ages due to influen...Greece waking up from her Dark Ages due to influence from the preliterate Hallstatt culture. <br /><br />Now, I've heard it all.<br /><br />Which element of classical Greek civilization did the "Hallstatt culture" offer?Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70508320051443442532009-09-28T05:38:03.277+03:002009-09-28T05:38:03.277+03:00Now you are going the other extreme to the Mesolit...Now you are going the other extreme to the Mesolithic... ;)<br /><br />Listen, this thread is primarily about a "western world view", its origin, and its continuation.<br /><br />No one doubts parts of its origin lies in ancient Greece. Now it happens that Greece woke form their dark ages exactly when the <i>iron-age</i> Central European Hallstatt culture flourished - and that is how far back I went with my statement. Hallstatt is the beginning of the iron age in that region, and my "may" just pointed to the fact that it, again, did not come out of nowhere (it originated from <i>bronze-age</i> Hallstatt A and B).<br /><br />So, in the end, all I am arguing is that in a discussion of the origin of the western world view it is as simplistic to ignore Central Europe, as it is to ignore the influence of Egypt, the Levant, and Persia/India onto the Greeks.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67464624653549319602009-09-27T15:54:29.487+03:002009-09-27T15:54:29.487+03:00Eurologist,
"And, there is nothing "pro...Eurologist,<br /><br />"And, there is nothing "provincial" about the practical, secular, and egalitarian goals, methods, and achievements of the Hanseatic League, with its large and still ongoing impact on Northern Europe."<br /><br />Of course that is not provincial.<br /><br />I am refering rather to this:<br />"there is longstanding tradition of practicality, rationalism, and egalitarian and democratic ideas that MAY PREDATE THE IRON AGE and that are plainly European, and that survived here and there and later shaped all of Europe and the Western World View"<br /><br />I am a computer scientist, not an archaeologist or an anthropologist, but as far as I know, up from the Mesolithic period there was a huge increase in the amount of smashed skulls in Europe and it took a long time before it overtook the rest of the world. That goes beyond the discussion of the post but your statement goes beyond that as well and tries to find some special European thing in the Iron Age or before, which would explain the rise of those values we saw appearing in Northern Europe some centuries agoKeplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34269598249853358522009-09-27T11:40:22.762+03:002009-09-27T11:40:22.762+03:00You seem to pick up only the periods that suit you...<i>You seem to pick up only the periods that suit you.</i> <br /><br />Kepler,<br /><br />I gave a concrete example and clearly marked it as such. And, I don't think that an example that stretches from Holland to the East Baltic, from central Germany to rivers deep in Poland and Russia, and that spans 5 centuries, is "provincial".<br /><br />And, there is nothing "provincial" about the practical, secular, and egalitarian goals, methods, and achievements of the Hanseatic League, with its large and still ongoing impact on Northern Europe.<br /><br /><br /><i>The reform started up just some 6 centuries ago.</i> <br /><br />The start of the Hanseatic league predates, and its quick rise coincides with the time of Albertus Magnus, and that is a crucial time period we are discussing here, aren't we? The continuation of thoughts and ideas in Europe independent of Arab influence is the core of the entire discussion!<br /><br /><i>Let's remember where Europe was during a longer period of time before that.<br />Let's also remember mankind just did not appear on the 6th century Bc.<br /><br />You won't see anything "intrinsic" in 1000 Bc in Europe.</i><br /><br />Of course you don't see anything "intrinsic" if you just take written history - that is an oxymoron. And I'd be the first to be very careful about cultural anthropological interpretations of archaeology. But that does not mean we don't know anything about the iron age - which came much later to Italy than to Central Europe. So there, with Hallstadt and La Tene, you have 700 years of central European culture, more advanced than Italy, with Greece wedged between that and the Near/Middle East. <br /><br />But somehow cultural ideas, values, and concept just traveled from east to west?eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41058972887355380152009-09-27T04:26:52.011+03:002009-09-27T04:26:52.011+03:00i have hope for the day that catholics and orthodo...i have hope for the day that catholics and orthodox will be able to share in the eucharist. together, we will make a much better witness as Jesus prayed that we all be one. <br /><br />as for muslims, i think i'll quote the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuell II Paleologus <i>"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." </i>the new testament is an accurate historical account of the life of Christ. 1st and 2nd century fragments in aramaic, greek, latin.. etc. all agree with one another. for the muslim to say Christ didn't die on the cross is something that the historical record refutes. islam is opposed to reason by its very nature.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00295744116017194535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31045687541045726692009-09-26T17:56:02.135+03:002009-09-26T17:56:02.135+03:00Eurologist,
I agree important concepts appeared f...Eurologist,<br /><br />I agree important concepts appeared firstly in Europe, such as certain democratic values and separation of powers (although the root was there in "give to the caesar what is of the caesar", whether this was mostly part of the Greek influence in Palestine is to be discussed).<br /><br />Still, I believe that this statement<br /><br /><br />"For example, when much of Europe was under stifling catholic cleric rule, the above set of ideas flourished in the north, created the Hanseatic League, where they were further nourished, were (indirectly) one of the main causes of the Reformation movement, and later impacted such ideas of public schooling and universal health care into Prussia and extended regions in Northern Europe."<br /><br />is one of the most provincial ones in this whole thread, after the one about Semitic languages' presumed inferiority.<br /><br />You seem to pick up only the periods that suit you. The reform started up just some 6 centuries ago. Let's remember where Europe was during a longer period of time before that.<br />Let's also remember mankind just did not appear on the 6th century Bc.<br /><br />You won't see anything "intrinsic" in 1000 Bc in Europe.Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.com