tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1929034909434634577..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Finally, an updated look at Y-chromosomes of Jewish priests (Hammer et al. 2009)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger112125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32257715252956989842013-10-03T00:29:30.372+03:002013-10-03T00:29:30.372+03:00Those of you who know the science, can you please ...Those of you who know the science, can you please say, how long ago did P58* Arabs share a recent common ancestor with these Cohanim? Specifically, the large cluster of Arabs who pretty much match this 12 marker CMH except on the fast mutating dys 385b, who claim common paternal descent thru an ancestor of these Cohanim and who pretty much have similar religious practices and beliefs as OT Jews. <br /><br />Thanks. J2hapydnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06184566477246858915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-61722292794923788982009-11-18T00:09:14.758+02:002009-11-18T00:09:14.758+02:00Kelly, if the sequence you mention follows the ord...Kelly, if the sequence you mention follows the order usual at Family Tree DNA (DYS 393-390-19...), then it is a rare haplotype belonging to what they call <a href="http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx" rel="nofollow">Ht35</a>, i.e. R1b1b2(xR1b1b2a1). Or in other words: the "older" fraction of R1b1b2, which is more common in West Asia and the Balcans. <br /><br />In <a href="http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html" rel="nofollow">Alonso 2005</a> (see supplemental material), he sampled four haplotypes with that sequence (varying at the other two DYS he used: 391 and 392). All them are rather rare and essentially found in West Asia/Balcans or (one) in Iberia. <br /><br />Most likely your lineage comes from West Asia. Asia Minor was where the Jewish diaspora was concentrated in Antiquity and in my opinion a good deal of modern Jewish DNA comes from that area rather than Palestine or Khazaria.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47786513220391618492009-11-17T22:52:13.167+02:002009-11-17T22:52:13.167+02:00Hello,
I am very new to the DNA project but have ...Hello,<br /><br />I am very new to the DNA project but have been doing serious genealogy studies for 20 years.<br /><br />I am also an armature historian with a passion for Joseph of Arimithae. I am not a nut, only out to prove a theory. <br /><br />My Uncle did the DNA testing and has the 12-25-15 beginning line up of the strand. We do not match anyone from our group of R1b1b2. I have done an exhausted research this past fortnight. <br /><br />I know the Jews were in Great Britain to work the tin minds. I know there is a strong resemblance between the Hebrew and Welsh languages, now why can't it be VERY possible for the Jews of BC to have married with the original celts of Briton?<br />Please let me know what you think?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14825390625340323624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50321157470913680432009-08-28T13:18:27.291+03:002009-08-28T13:18:27.291+03:00I have had the answer that also Ventura must be co...<i>I have had the answer that also Ventura must be considered genetically Italian:<br /></i><br /><br />Stay on topic.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-21459320260903371322009-08-28T07:24:32.810+03:002009-08-28T07:24:32.810+03:00I have had the answer that also Ventura must be co...I have had the answer that also Ventura must be considered genetically Italian:<br />“Mr. Tognoni,<br />Mr. Ventura's name has been in Colombia for more than sixty years and prior to that in France, South Africa and Turkey. The connection is that a great grandfather from Maratea, Italy, came to Colombia and married. This side of the family is still in Colombia.<br /> If I can answer any more questions, please let me know.<br /> Thank you and happy hunting Jane C. Ventura”.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79301319751878054562009-08-27T18:00:53.629+03:002009-08-27T18:00:53.629+03:00I wrote above that the Italians in the Argiedude’s...I wrote above that the Italians in the Argiedude’s spreadsheet on R-L23- were more than those counted by him, not counting all those who should be added.<br />Two have an Italian surname (Viola 5GK22 and Caiazza 3BTDE) and are genetically Italians.<br />Also Ventura has an Italian surname, but, as this surname is taken also from Jews of Italian descent, I wrote to Jane Ventura to have some information on her family. Anyway his haplotype is totally different from the other Jews who are probably of Spanish origin (Sephardim): DYS390=22, DYS19=13, DYS392=14 like many Sephardim but also like a few Italians, DYS458=16, rare among Sephardim who have the modal =17, and also DYS464=15,16,17,18. If he was a Jew, we can think to an Italian Jew very different from Sephardim.<br />The Swiss Tarnuzzer (UY5NN), very close to Thiel (8334H), is from the Grisons/Graubuenden, and must be considered a Rhaetian in every respect. Even more Thil has the rare DYSYCAIIa/b= 17-23, like the 4 Italians (Donato, Merante, Prowting, Ferrero).<br />Some South Americans I added to Ysearch (2DMW6: Riquelme Contreras from Chile, and 9DMF5: Riquelme Gaete from Chile, closely related) shouldn’t probably made us think to a presence of R-L23- in Spain, but to an origin from Jews converted, who had taken their DNA somewhere during the Roman Empire.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31911270486718797572009-08-24T17:48:15.165+03:002009-08-24T17:48:15.165+03:00Migrations from Europe to West Asia could be mainl...Migrations from Europe to West Asia could be mainly two, AFAIK:<br /><br />1. The Epipaleolithic Zarzian culture of the Zagros that is probably derived from Eastern European Epigravettian<br /><br />2. Possible backmigration from the West Balcans (Italy-related?) in relation with rock art of European style in Beldibi, Turkey. This is complicated because the possibly related Belbasi instead shows material culture related to the Natufian of the Levant. <br /><br />The Levant as such does not seem, AFAIK, to have suffered any direct backmigration from Europe, though would have been influenced by the highland areas in the Neolithic, specially in the PPNB phase.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72433599894203896042009-08-24T17:46:29.156+03:002009-08-24T17:46:29.156+03:00The oddity of the previous calculation of the hapl...The oddity of the previous calculation of the haplotypes under R-S116+ in the Tyrolese (R-L23-=5, R-L23+=4 and R-L51+=5) made me reconsider the matter. In fact we have: R-L23- (no. 8, 47,52) = 5 (5,43% of R1b; 2,57% of the sample); R-L23+ (no. 3, 10, 16, 29, 37, 40, 45, 46)= 8 (8,69% of R1b; 4,12% of the sample); R-L51+ ( no. 18, 24, 27, 38, 44) = 9 (9,78% of R1b; 4,63% of the sample). The percentage of the haplotypes under R-S116+ is 23,9%.<br />Then in the calculation of Argiedude the Tyrolean R-L23- is 2,57% of the individuals tested, one of the higher percentage absolutely found.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41960936545345362742009-08-24T15:00:48.824+03:002009-08-24T15:00:48.824+03:00But I think isn’t supposable a migration from Euro...But I think isn’t supposable a migration from Europe to Middle East in that time, which was the time of a migration on the contrary, from Asia Minor to Balkans and Europe. If a migration there was I think it happened before, just after the Younger Dryas, in the time when it is documented that mtDNA U53b migrated.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66508344073478511072009-08-24T14:00:27.232+03:002009-08-24T14:00:27.232+03:00I found that there is a cold event related to the ...I found that there is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event" rel="nofollow"></a>a cold event related to the end of PPNB, c. 6200 BCE. But doesn't seem to mean depopulation and was much weaker than the Younger Drias, though harsher than the Little Ice Age.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82392126419609516762009-08-24T13:47:16.158+03:002009-08-24T13:47:16.158+03:00I thank you, Maju. Certainly you know archeology b...I thank you, Maju. Certainly you know archeology better than me. I only remember to have read, among the thousands of books and papers I have, that there was a period of aridity in Palestine that depopulated the region. If I’ll find that paper, I’ll write to you. Anyway your theory doesn’t falsify mine, though a migration doesn’t happen either as a place is empty or too much crowded.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54201218725665197942009-08-24T13:03:16.453+03:002009-08-24T13:03:16.453+03:00There's no YD depopulation in Palestine: Kebar...There's no YD depopulation in Palestine: Kebaran (Lte UP), gives way to Natufian (Mesolithic), in turn succeeded by the PPNA (Neolithic). This evolution is generally considered local, though there was interaction between the various Neolithic centers of West Asia. <br /><br />Only later, with PPNB, we do see some clear flow from the North but there is never an interrptution in settlement in Palestine since the earliest MP/UP transitional cultures, probably at the origin of (or at least closely related to) European UP.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25992189914127430322009-08-24T11:44:00.932+03:002009-08-24T11:44:00.932+03:00In fact in those countries there are both U5b3 and...In fact in those countries there are both U5b3 and R-L23-.<br />Remenber what said Argiedude to Vizachero, that there is a difference between Turkey and Palestine, and what he reproved to him was to make pass what is from Asia Minor as it was Palestinian.It was just the Palestinian region (and morover tha Arab one) which was depopulated and then peopled after by J2 and J1 etc. from North.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36418579039251769812009-08-24T11:18:11.173+03:002009-08-24T11:18:11.173+03:00We shouldn’t forget that Middle East was depopulat...<i>We shouldn’t forget that Middle East was depopulated during the Younger Dryas</i>. <br /><br />Nope. The Oriental region (Zagros, Iran-Iraq) was depopulated during the LGM (not the Younger Dryas) and was repopulated, at least in part, from Eastern Europe. But the Occidental region (Levant, Anatolia) was continuously inhabited.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66725180342812082832009-08-24T07:38:28.696+03:002009-08-24T07:38:28.696+03:00Maliclavelli wrote on www.worldfamilies.net: “In a...Maliclavelli wrote on www.worldfamilies.net: “In an epoch of low population’s expansion, 7,450 YBP is the date when this population took agriculture from the Middle Eastern J2’s and G2’s and began to expand. Of course this population were the R1b1b2 of the Italian refugium, who, from 12,300 years ago, as the mitochondrial U5b3, have had a low expansion to Middle East till Mesopotamia and Iran, but was who remained in Italy or nearby who peopled Europe”.<br />The recent demonstration that Middle East lacks haplogroup R-L23- is easily explaining if we look at the map of the expansion from the Italian refugium of the mtDNA haplogroup U5b3: it lacks in Middle East too, then what could be understood as a following lost was probably an obstacle that prevented from the diffusion. We shouldn’t forget that Middle East was depopulated during the Younger Dryas.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40384075010481687652009-08-24T07:18:26.431+03:002009-08-24T07:18:26.431+03:00I have spoken for (and from) long time of the Rhae...I have spoken for (and from) long time of the Rhaetian-Etruskan Fatherland. Argiedude has had the merit to take our attention on the paper of Pichler et alii on the “Rhaetian” population I spoke about largely when it was published (Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms, Human Biology, 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441-464). Also if he has reported wrongly some data I corrected, I think that the other one within the R1b haplogroup are very interesting. First of all we haven’t only the two guys (number 52) reported by Argiedude as R-L23-, but also no. 8 and 47. We have also some R-L23+: 10, 16, 40, 45, and some R-L51+: 24, 27, 38. Then among 92 R1b we have 5 R-L23- ( 5,43%), 4 R-L23+ (4,34%) and 5 R-L51+ (5,43%). Then more than 15% under R-S116+. If we calculate the variance of these haplotypes it would take us well beyond the Younger Dryas.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77667053444523134132009-08-21T21:20:02.247+03:002009-08-21T21:20:02.247+03:00"I think that the work of Dienekes is praisew..."I think that the work of Dienekes is praiseworthy".<br /><br />I also agree very much so!pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26254783829042516192009-08-21T14:14:37.543+03:002009-08-21T14:14:37.543+03:00The Moroccan RRZDS, for the “Athey’s Y-Haplogroup...The Moroccan RRZDS, for the “Athey’s Y-Haplogroup predictor”, is Hg. L. He finds the closest to him in YHRD above all in Far East Asia.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36853813061346403602009-08-21T06:27:49.933+03:002009-08-21T06:27:49.933+03:00The two Tyrolese (or, better, Ladins) tested by Pi...The two Tyrolese (or, better, Ladins) tested by Pichler et alii (as they are from Val Venosta, but also the German-speakings are above all genetically Ladins, even though this may annoy Miss Pichler et alii) are really DYS389I and II= 12-28 and not 13-29 like Argiedude erroneously reports.<br />If he would have liked to find some cluster, he should have notice that among the 12 Italians of his spreadsheet (it is incomprehensible why he put Sicilians apart!) 5 are DYS389I and II=12-28, very rare among the others, being the unique exemplar UT2H8: Azios, but with DYS385=12-17 belongs probably to another haplogroup. It is the only one back mutation in the first segment, whilst we have some mutation onwards (14-30) and the Moroccan RRZDS, who has 12-29, presupposes the Italian mutation and a mutation onwards in the second segment, and this could demonstrate an ancient derivation of the North Africans R-L23- from Italy.<br />From this we see how characterizing is the marker, and in one cluster so ancient as R-L23-.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-59981129511757067252009-08-20T09:38:13.809+03:002009-08-20T09:38:13.809+03:00Argiedude is a serious person and is trying the tr...Argiedude is a serious person and is trying the truth. It is interesting his observation about the presence of R-L23- in a belt among Italy, Greece, Turkey, Caucasus. I think that on this we must work. As in the division between J2/J1, here is the division line: here Europe, intending Europe also the countries around Black Sea, under there is Middle East. I have demonstrated that also Asia is lacking R-L23-. To what I said above we must add some samples from Kyrgyzstan I put on Ysearch from SMGF.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32967216421055197622009-08-20T00:52:47.775+03:002009-08-20T00:52:47.775+03:00"I think that the work of Dienekes is praisew..."I think that the work of Dienekes is praiseworthy". <br /><br />Very much so. It's easily my favourite site. And his posting relevant information about various species other than humans is also much appreciated, e.g. the recent dairy cattle post.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33319248110366782322009-08-19T20:54:25.761+03:002009-08-19T20:54:25.761+03:00Why Argiedude hasn’t put in his spreadsheet Collin...Why Argiedude hasn’t put in his spreadsheet Collins (T75CF), who matches very closely pretty all the Jews over 67 markers; he has put Stromberg, who writes on his Ysearch account "Jewish we believe" probably without any proof and with only 12 markers, but he has 67, and he hasn’t put Crenson, who is one of the two tested whom we know for R-L23- (see Adriano’s spreadsheet)?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12769789790839108922009-08-19T18:16:08.325+03:002009-08-19T18:16:08.325+03:00I have added to Ysearch from SMGF other R-L23-: 2D...I have added to Ysearch from SMGF other R-L23-: 2DMW6 (Riquelme Contreras from Chile) and 9DMF5 (Riquelme Gaete from Chile), closely related. It would be added also 5J3P7, and to be examined, having DYS461=11 but DYS393=13, 255VK and DN4GP, who is the only Italian in this group and, having a surname taken also from Jewish Italians, I wrote to him asking something about his origins. <br />If we add a group closely related from Pakistan and India (see APNEG), it is very strange that all are R-L23+, and I haven’t found anyone who is R-L23-, and also those found absolutely are very few. If Asia was the origin of R-M269, as somebody pretends, actually we don’t find a huge number of the intermediate haplotypes that generated the modern European subclades, i.e. R-L23- and R-L23+/R-L150-.<br />Re the so called Sephardic cluster of Argiedude, perhaps the two Chilean (of probably Spanish ancestry) can explain its origin. They have DYS390=25, DYS391= 10, DYS385=11-15 but DYS389I and II=13-29 and DYS392=13. Then the Italian 5VU5V (Fiozzo) (and see the close related N4Y6V Cervino who has DYS390=24) and NAUKN (Russo), who , having DYS390=25, DYS391=11, DYS385=11-15, DYS389I and II=12-28 and DYS392=14, are the closest to the so called Sephardic cluster, and we can hypothesize that both, the Spanish and the Sephardic, are of Roman descent. That the Sephardim examined by Argiedude are closely related and presuppose an unique ancestor within these last 2000 years must be demonstrated, having, in so few markers, many differences.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44718146519037248712009-08-18T15:50:00.343+03:002009-08-18T15:50:00.343+03:00Maju writes: “Just write when you have time/feel l...Maju writes: “Just write when you have time/feel like but I mentioned because I find hard to follow your ideas without some background. Writing articles instead of just comments would allow us to get a better idea of what you mean”.<br /><br />Maju, I have written books, but into my language (Italian), and about other matters: poetry, critics, Italian literature. When I was young I wrote also on philosophy, on your Marx, etc. I have studied for many years the theory of the monogenesis of language of Alfredo Trombetti, but what I wrote is unpublished. Anyway some ideas I have base themselves on those studies, and the difficulty is in the matter itself. I should deepen my knowledge of English: when I say something inconvenient, they say that they don’t understand because I am not fluent in English, but two forums have banned me: probably they understood very well what I was saying. Forums and blogs are very useful also for the papers we find on them and frequently we can download and read. I think that the work of Dienekes is praiseworthy. I feel good so.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-30825649955378813842009-08-18T15:22:22.710+03:002009-08-18T15:22:22.710+03:00You can have a blog or a dozen blogs for free in B...You can have a blog or a dozen blogs for free in Blogger. You can even make money with them... so they say at least. <br /><br />Just write when you have time/feel like but I mentioned because I find hard to follow your ideas without some background. Writing articles instead of just comments would allow us to get a better idea of what you mean.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com