tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1832817886319279711..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Etruscans (maybe) not from AnatoliaDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43494887458515183552015-08-09T01:50:20.559+03:002015-08-09T01:50:20.559+03:00Etruscans monuments were translated by Serbo-Croat...Etruscans monuments were translated by Serbo-Croatian language. <br /><b>Svetislav S. Biblija</b> - <i>The Mummy of Zagreb and Other Etruscan, Lydian, Lycian Written Monuments - Institute of Etruscan Studies, 1989.</i>Dejanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05908645452696317413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53238157190527366382013-08-23T22:46:46.864+03:002013-08-23T22:46:46.864+03:00http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy....http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html<br />This site is full of errors.<br /><br />It's enought funny to see people argue about Etruscans speaking od Herodotus and Dionysius but ignore the most recent archaeological discoveries.<br />Croats and Slovenes do not descend by the Veneti of the italian Veneto. In Europe there are many peoples called Veneti or Venedi or Wendi (perhaps a word of Indo-European substrate), but they are not tied together.These Veneti are an italic tribe of wave of Latin-Faliscans, as their language shows. They occupied the region pushing over the indigenous peoples. No one has doubts that the Etruscans are related to indigenous Rethi and the Villanova civilization, although they had trade relations with the East because of the iron. Their civilization was born thanks to iron working, still in Tuscany you see the dross of iron the Etruscans worked, tons of slag.<br />Rome was founded by the Latins. There is archaeological evidence that in the eighth century BC the Latins built the wall and the public buildings, Temples and a Royal Palace, that have joined 4 hills in a single city. They were builded in only a generation, with an urban plan clearly defined.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02658962885654266196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5040748419040162892013-08-15T04:44:38.720+03:002013-08-15T04:44:38.720+03:00Since mixing with the neanderthals, basically. The...Since mixing with the neanderthals, basically. They were pushed into refugiums during ice age and expanded out immediately afterwards. Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83525658913994015882013-08-14T22:19:17.332+03:002013-08-14T22:19:17.332+03:00The real question is, when did Central Asia and We...The real question is, when did Central Asia and West Asia become European centric? bmdriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02175936825472291559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4806181584436577802013-08-06T19:00:12.253+03:002013-08-06T19:00:12.253+03:00Note, too, that last picture in the italian geneti...Note, too, that last picture in the italian genetics link. Even though anatolia is not a current r1a area an ancient form of r1a radiates right out of anatolia and also influences greece and italia, even though it hardly exists in anatolia itself any more. And no I'm not r1a I just like the truth.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1562532231558396012013-08-06T10:32:32.979+03:002013-08-06T10:32:32.979+03:00@Grognard,
You are making unsubstantiated inferen...@Grognard,<br /><br />You are making unsubstantiated inferences about the past based on your own highly subjective and problematic view of history and the current distribution of some haplogroups and still dare accuse me of being biased. Is your standard of science so low? Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56332526461208404872013-08-06T00:56:38.257+03:002013-08-06T00:56:38.257+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69956874070752151902013-08-06T00:53:41.916+03:002013-08-06T00:53:41.916+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54412773887964706312013-08-06T00:22:22.188+03:002013-08-06T00:22:22.188+03:00http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy....http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html<br /><br />Look at the pictures. the haplogroups show several steep klines and the e3b+j2 are clustered in the south. This isn't evidence so much as just fact. Italy isn't homogenous and no one can make an honest argument to that effect. If your actual parentage doesn't count then what does.<br /><br />The only reason anatolia seems like a strange choice to modern historians is that troy was believed to be a fiction until recently. At the time it was not a fable, though, it was more recent to them than the romans were to us. There seems to be an assumption ancient peoples were illiterate but we know the pre classic greeks weren't, we just don't know how to translate their language. So at the time there'd be a fair continuity. And since the local cows are anatolian then this sews it up even without the genetic links that exist in humans with the r1a q version.<br /><br />Interestingly the franks are also purported to come from anatolia but the historical evidence is shakier.<br /><br />North africa makes no sense, we are talking about the etruscans after all. <br /><br />It also makes no sense that a pastoral people as romans originally were would be a seafaring people, if you do want to get into romulas and remus.<br /><br />Etruscan area is very easy to walk to from analtolia. If you skirted the greeks to the west it's the first place you'd come to.<br /><br />To the west we have the r1bs dominating. So where else did they come from? It's either anatolia or northeastern europe, really.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4092787809669888662013-08-05T23:18:00.639+03:002013-08-05T23:18:00.639+03:00@Onur Of course they are evidence of something. If...@Onur Of course they are evidence of something. If haplogroups aren't evidence of something then what is. How ludicrous. Now you may interpret it differently but you don't have any convincing counter explanation.<br /><br /><br />I've also heard the all italians are the same nonsense from a few people but it's a hrd road to argue this. Again, history says otherwise. Haplogroups say much otherwise. Nature of the holy roman empire says otherwise, normans, catalans, arab and austrian influence say otherwise in incontrovertible terms. Five minutes walking in any italian city says otherwise.<br /><br />I have pointed out tons of historical events, you simply poo poo them. <br /><br />History doesn't matter and haplogroups don't matter so obviously (as has seemed case before) you have a bias that can't be overcome and there's no reasoning with you.<br /><br />Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71078001613324474522013-08-05T17:28:22.132+03:002013-08-05T17:28:22.132+03:00Onur, that was a complete cop out. It appears you ...<i>Onur, that was a complete cop out. It appears you do not have any evidence to support your assertions given you cannot quote anything. I will thus give your opinion due weight.</i><br /><br />Do you have a reading problem? Did not I give you a link which presents not one but many proofs of my assertions on one webpage, which is more than enough in content as evidence? If you have any objection to the content of the evidence I presented, share it with me. If not, please do not waste my time with your unsubstantiated opinions.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60286218555433523142013-08-05T13:01:39.708+03:002013-08-05T13:01:39.708+03:00Also Ebizur...this is a link to Alberto Palmucci&#...Also Ebizur...this is a link to Alberto Palmucci's site about this very paper Dienekes posted about.<br /><br /><a href="http://dna-etruschi.myblog.it/tag/etruscan" rel="nofollow">DNA OF THE ETRUSCANS AND THE MIGRATIONS WITH TROY AND NEAR EAST</a>AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8512583869214698482013-08-05T11:42:22.762+03:002013-08-05T11:42:22.762+03:00Didn't notice it before but zoom in close and ...Didn't notice it before but zoom in close and there's a hotspot of r1a right in kurdistan. What a surprise! <br /><br />Well, not really, they are one of the least affected by recent (or ancient) admixture so are a refugeum looking deep into the past.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7477616574722711792013-08-05T02:05:14.924+03:002013-08-05T02:05:14.924+03:00@Grognard,
You are making a lot of assertions wit...@Grognard,<br /><br />You are making a lot of assertions without presenting any real evidence. All you do to back up your claims is to say history says this, history says that, which are actually your own views of history rathern than the real history. In reality, history is a much more limited discipline than you want to believe. Also, where is the ancient or modern DNA or archaeological evidence to support your assertions? I see none. You are more like prophesying than discussing. Lastly, those haplogroup maps you present by themselves cannot be used to support your claims.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63707575118915716152013-08-05T01:23:12.449+03:002013-08-05T01:23:12.449+03:00Onur, that was a complete cop out. It appears you...Onur, that was a complete cop out. It appears you do not have any evidence to support your assertions given you cannot quote anything. I will thus give your opinion due weight.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82851692639584760572013-08-04T23:07:20.039+03:002013-08-04T23:07:20.039+03:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-D...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29<br /><br />I think the r1a and r1b maps are pretty instructive.<br /><br />r1a is all over india and europe but there's a big blank spot in middle east. Part of that is maybe due to a mainly north caspian route west, but I am guessing it shows a lot of loss of ground as well.<br /><br />r1b is basically everywhere like it's been there for 20k years. Even with all the changes to anatolia and ME it's at the same level as surrounding areas with a big concentration in the middle of cameroon and east africa. Obviously this happened some time ago.<br /><br />That's no doubt a big part of what being mediterranean was until relatively recently. I realize there's a big impetus on people to justify themselves as it were, but this isn't some superficial similarity in a few vases you can handwave away but a big presence of haplotypes that can't really be explained any other way. Combined with the newer haplotypes being from historical events.<br /><br />Plus every historical source simply says this is the case. I mean OF COURSE at the time anatolia was the big center of human civilization. That's what happens, civilization arises and spreads out, civilization collapses and people disperse or die out, and later other people move in (possibly their conquerors).<br /><br />But before anatolia the center of civilization was further east, then further east all the way to indus valle, and this was all spurred on by climate change.<br /><br />The only reason to believe anything else is politics, which seems to be what anthropology is all about.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47740016960797644862013-08-04T22:15:20.447+03:002013-08-04T22:15:20.447+03:00@Onur, I know that west anatolia is relatively fer...@Onur, I know that west anatolia is relatively fertile.<br /><br />Ottomans brought in circassians and other mountain people of georgia and settled them everywhere. You can see their presence on the haplomap.<br /><br />Now if you have been to anatolia 3000 years ago then by all means I bow to your knowledge. However the bias on people talking about the place they live or their perceived race makes them jump to some startling conclusions.<br /><br />There's few, if any, places you can get a sample from today and find out what was there that long ago.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84529398134458832722013-08-04T19:09:20.499+03:002013-08-04T19:09:20.499+03:00Agreed.
Then surely you also agree that your theo...<i>Agreed.</i><br /><br />Then surely you also agree that your theory has a very weak basis.<br /><br /><i>What papers do you mean? I cant think of anything that meets your description?</i><br /><br />All more detailed genetic studies comparing Tuscans with other Italians and non-Italians. In them Tuscans are always shown to be genetically closest to non-Sardinian Italians (not necessarily exclusively them). This is a well-proven fact. I do not understand why you are still asking for evidence when the evidence is in abundance.<br /><br />But if you are still insisting on seeing evidence, here you can see on one webpage multiple detailed genetic analyses involving Tuscans, all of them confirming what I have been saying:<br /><br />http://dodecad.blogspot.com/search/label/Italians<br /><br /><i>Of course Tuscans are going to be similar to other Italians.</i><br /><br />Not just similar. They are MOST similar to other non-Sardinian Italians (not necessarily exclusively them).<br /><br /><i>It is their differences from other Italians that speak to their origins.</i><br /><br />They do not show any distinctiveness from other non-Sardinian Italians in detailed genetic analyses. They are typical Italians genetically.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32372858958981962912013-08-04T15:31:24.568+03:002013-08-04T15:31:24.568+03:00Amen, Silus Italicus.
Let's call things what ...Amen, Silus Italicus.<br /><br />Let's call things what they are: to this day, a very small but vocal number of Northern Italian scientists and Americans who live mostly on the Eastern Coast, cannot believe -- just can't believe -- that the Etruscans were native Italians, that the modern Italians are descendants of the Romans, or that Columbus was Italian, etc.<br /><br />Their deep-seeded prejudices, perhaps from bad experiences with ignorant Italians, make them continue to come up with ridiculous pseudo-science, and we all have to put up with it. It is Herodotus 2500 years later: just as he couldn't believe such a sophisticated culture came from the West (good thing he never heard of Tartessos), these modern bigots can't believe anyone smart or advanced came from Italy (because of a few idiots along the jersey shore).<br /><br />So we will continue to hear nonsense like, "Was Galileo in fact Jewish? Tonight on History!" "Was Da Vinci Secretly British? Tonight on Discovery!" <br /><br />And crap within this realm.<br /><br />I repeat, and repeat: if you believe the foundation myths in selective ancient literature, you are an utter fool. Along with the ridiculous notion that Etruscans were Lydians, there are foundation myths that state that other tribes sprung up from an Eagle's womb, that other tribes came from the Amazons, etc. Get a grip. These were myths.mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-51583449668289208862013-08-04T02:44:05.984+03:002013-08-04T02:44:05.984+03:00@Grognard,
You are talking like someone who has n...@Grognard,<br /><br />You are talking like someone who has never been to Anatolia. Anatolia and the adjacent terriories to the east have never been as arid as the most of the rest of West Asia (e.g., there have never been deserts) during their long history of human habitation, and farmlands have always been in abundance in Anatolia since the Neolithic times with no sign of any large-scale abandonment of farmlands and any ensuing depopulation since then. Effects of plagues were usually short-term, as populations usually recovered within few centuries following plagues. Invaders usually did not interrupt farming in any significant degree, as they always saw it much more preferable to keep local famers intact and benefit from their work. As for Ottomans, they acquired most of Anatolia from the Muslim emirates (=beyliks) of Anatolia, and those regions were already mostly Muslim when they passed to Ottomans. Ottomans in general did not make much change on the lifestyle of the Anatolian population after their conquests; they were much more concerned with the Balkans.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54629231890300697932013-08-04T01:44:28.051+03:002013-08-04T01:44:28.051+03:00"That paper's genetic analysis' marke..."That paper's genetic analysis' markers are very limited in number and depth."<br /><br />Agreed. <br /><br />"That is why that analysis' Tuscan results are not replicated in any of more detailed genetic analyses involving Tuscans. Tuscans always show up as genetically closest to other non-Sardinian Italians and do not form a deviant cluster in more detailed genetic analyses. In conclusion, the thing you present as a proof for your idea of a North African origin for Etruscans is not a proof at all and cannot be used as a proof of anything, as it is refuted by more detailed genetic analyses."<br /><br /><br />What papers do you mean? I cant think of anything that meets your description?<br /><br />Of course Tuscans are going to be similar to other Italians. IMO the Etruscans were there first, colonized the area first. It is said they even founded Rome. They didnt live on an island like the Sardinians. Tuscany is in the middle of one of the 2/3 main European population flow prehistorical superhighways. The largest historical population superhighway. They spread out to neighbours/colonies and would pickup any washes of population from the east. Of course Tuscans are going to be similar to other Italians. Doesnt mean they came from the east. It is their differences from other Italians that speak to their origins.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58105274437854748612013-08-03T23:00:33.193+03:002013-08-03T23:00:33.193+03:00Now if we know for sure who PIE were we are golden...Now if we know for sure who PIE were we are golden ;)<br /><br />But seriously remember mountain areas are natural refugeums. I imagine that etruscan area is part from lydia, part from whatever was there beforehand. Higher neanderthal % than the basques bears this out.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84995107103032147622013-08-03T22:16:13.574+03:002013-08-03T22:16:13.574+03:00@Onur
You are shameful...I was not making any wil...@Onur<br /><br />You are shameful...I was not making any wild speculations. I merely made a well-reasoned postulation about the origins of a "mysterious" people based on what linguistic evidence we have at hand. It is not beyond reason or "wild" to speculate an eastern origin based on the facts I stated nor on what Beekes has done in his research.<br /><br />A wild speculation would be to say that Etruscan is Hungarian or Turkic/ Altaic, or that Eruscans were Sub-Saharan (Afrocentrist idea) or some such bunk. I do not like being attacked because I had an educated opinion and to be the bigger person, I will refrain from calling you a shameless, pseudo-intellectual a**hole.<br /><br />It is fine that you disagree, but to attack my intellect and that of Mr. Beekes (who has vastly more intellectual prowess in his pinky finger than you have in your whole ugly person) is beyond the pale. Then you present no reasonable, or for that matter even just barely intellectual, counter-argument (not that I think you are that much capable anyway). You just attack. Disagree with me, fine, but do not attack me or my intellect. Do try to make a decently intelligent counter-argument, if you are capable.<br /><br />Dienekes forgive me please. <br /><br />@Ebizur<br /><br />I agree with you...I thought about that. It is not inconceivable. I just don't know the linguistic mechanisms by which one would arrive at Tyrsenian from Rasenna. Certainly by the sound of the words they "sound" like they could be related. It is not impossible for "Tyrsenian" to be a Greek corruption of the Etruscan autonym. I would never be so brave as to say, "Yes, that is what it is", hahaha. Your suggestion is of interest though. I have seen an attempt to relate Rasenna to Arzawa also. I am not convinced by that etymology. I have also seen attempts to relate Etruscan to Northeast Caucasian which would make Tyrsenian (R. A. Brown considers that Eteocretan maybe related to this group) part of the proposed Macro-Caucasian (Vasco-Caucasian) macro-family along with Hattic (extinct), Hurro-Urartian, (extinct), Kaskian (extinct), possibly "Minoan" (extinct), Northeast Caucasian, Northwest Caucasian, Basque, and Burushaski. I am neutral concerning this. I will say I am not so sure Northwest Caucasian is all that related to Northeast Caucasian. Burushaski, Basque, and Northeast Caucasian do share SOME actual isoglosses, but not so much with Northwest Caucasian. That is neither here nor there though.<br /><br />I have seen the attempted relation of Rasenna to Rhaeti/ Raeti before. It was in a book. If I can recall it, I will post a link for you.<br /><br />I think you might find this interesting also, Ebizur. In that link it talks about things in the archaeology of the Villanovan culture that are positively Aegean.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.books.google.com/books?id=4kYaLOzrEK4C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Early+Civilization+and+Literacy+in+Europe+%2B+Proto-Etruscans+%2B+Villanovan&source=bl&ots=5sdwFacdH0&sig=surr2_E11_UhAOhbHT7Cra5cJxU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4kj9UYmjNIe-4AOc5IAw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Early%20Civilization%20and%20Literacy%20in%20Europe%20%2B%20Proto-Etruscans%20%2B%20Villanovan&f=false" rel="nofollow">Harald Haarmann, Early Civilization and Literacy in Europe: An Inquiry into Cultural Continuity in the Mediterranean World</a>AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69680838682960261002013-08-03T15:08:58.486+03:002013-08-03T15:08:58.486+03:00I think a reasonable theory is that Etruscans, via...I think a reasonable theory is that Etruscans, via the Villanova culture, are of Alpine descent, but probably mixed with (not all that different) locals. Alpine origin also resolves their linguistic relation with the Raeti, and the timing would have been right to preserve a non-IE island, while the Celtic/Italic/Germanic continuum condensed around the Alps. Still, they had caught up in the spread of the Urnfield "culture" - or Central European fashion of the day.<br /><br />If their language derives from the Cardium settlers, it could either originate from one of the many non-IE Anatolian (SW, or N Levantine) languages, or from an early PIE sister language. From the little I have seen, the cases, umlaut, inflection, prefixes and suffixes, and genitive s - while more agglutinative, all point to a language grammatically rather close to PIE (definitely not just from Greek influence) - but non-IE from the vocabulary. This would point to a relation to PIE to likely before the very beginning of the Neolithic.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-73735819406053215882013-08-03T11:48:25.737+03:002013-08-03T11:48:25.737+03:00@Onur - Just that. Whole middle easta nd anatolia ...@Onur - Just that. Whole middle easta nd anatolia was once jungle then arable farmland now very arid. BMAC, messopotamia, arabia, indus valley civilization etc. etc. etc.<br /><br />@Annie - History, pretty much. I think I touched on the highlights of anatolia. Desertification, ottoman empire, sack of constantinople and surrounding lands by the fourth crusade, seleucid empire before which anatolia was pretty much wiped out completely due to peasants fleeing the land during all the conflict, and before that 250 years of plague that almost depopulated the area as well. If I need to go back further yes the sack of troy, even further the sack of every civilization that was there before during the bronze age collapse and again before that. Minor stuff like that which people seem to forget about....<br /><br />There was a post recently about the iberiomauretians as well. The obvious bias is to assume that people who are there currently always are but from history we know that's largely not the case, especially when it comes to the mediterranean and anatolia in particular.Fiend of 9 worldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17712083368615685458noreply@blogger.com