tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1772461146616636736..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Some mtDNA links between Europe and AsiaDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40987733923597604772010-09-15T03:15:55.626+03:002010-09-15T03:15:55.626+03:00Can anyone share the difference with my U5b1b1c , ...Can anyone share the difference with my U5b1b1c , meaning the 1c at the end might denote in an overall perspective. I am learning.<br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />"Thou that wouldst enjoy thy beloved, and feel the rest of his gospel, and walk in that path which leads thereto, wait to learn of the Spirit. <br />Know what it is that is to walk in the path of life, and indeed is alone capable of walking therein. It is that which groans, and which mourns; that which is begotten of God in thee. The path of life is for the seed of life. The true knowledge of the way, with the walking in the way, is reserved for God's child, for God's traveller. Therefore keep in the regeneration, keep in the birth; be no more than God made thee. Give over thine own willing; give over thine own running; give over thine own desiring to know, or to be any thing, and sink down to the seed which God sows in the heart; and let that grow in thee, and be in thee, and breathe in thee, and act in thee, and thou shalt find by sweet experience, that the Lord knows that, and loves and owns that, and will lead it to the inheritance of life, which is his portion. And as thou takest up the cross to thyself, and sufferest that to overspread and become a yoke over thee, thou shalt become renewed, and enjoy life, and everlasting inheritance in that. <br />Watch against the selfish wisdom, in every step of thy growth, and in every spiritual motion, that *that* come not between thee and thy life; that that deceive thee not with a likeness, a shadow, making it appear more pleasing to the eye than the substance. Every step of thy way it will be laying baits for thee; and it is easy for deceit to enter thee at any time, and for that wisdom to get up in thee under an appearance of spiritual wisdom, unless the Lord tenderly and powerfully preserve thee: and if it prevail, it will lead thee from the path of true wisdom; it will cozen thee with a false faith, instead of the true faith; with false praying instead of the breathings of the true child; with diligence and zeal in thy false way, instead of the true zeal and diligence; yea, it will hurry thee on in the path of error, shutting that eye in thee, which should see, and hardening thy heart against thy bosom friend. <br />Let nothing judge in thee, concerning thine own heart, or concerning others, or concerning any way or truth of God, but only the begotten of God in the heart. Let the light in which thou art begotten to God, and which shines upon his begotten, be the only judge in thee, and then thou canst not err in judgment. Be not hasty, be not forward in judgment; keep back to the life, still waiting for the appearance and openings of the life. A few steps, fetched in the life and power of God, are much safer and sweeter than a hasty progress in the hasty, forward spirit. "<br />My Ancestral Grandfather Issac Pennington wrote this in 1663Thomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304587097395172609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67374003116245067522010-06-03T22:54:19.666+03:002010-06-03T22:54:19.666+03:00Yossarian:
They are arbitrary letters, mere nomen...Yossarian:<br /><br />They are arbitrary letters, mere nomenclature. Of course it's sorted so (normally) the R and the U mean they are related with other Rs and other Us... but, specially in mtDNA this is not always the case. <br /><br />U6b is a NW African/Iberian matrilineage. Ultimately with North African origins, after the U higher level lineage split within the migration from South Asia into West Eurasia some 50 Ka ago probably. <br /><br />R1b or R1b1 is a very common West Eurasian, Central Asian and Central-East African lineage, depending on the sublineage. It's rare in East Europe though. Like mtDNA, it probably branched out from West Asia long ago.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29113871319285069282010-06-03T07:02:04.744+03:002010-06-03T07:02:04.744+03:00I learned a while back, after being tested for 37 ...I learned a while back, after being tested for 37 markers by familytreedna.com that I was of<br />R1b1 Haplogroup for my DNA and U6b<br />Haplogroup for my mtDNA. I am fully aware of the ancestral origins of my family. What I would like to ask is:<br />Do these LETTERS representing the various Haplogroups stand for something- like a place/region, or where they arbitrarily assigned a long time ago? If they do stand for something, I was wondering what the R and the U stand for. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69959524078149259602009-10-18T05:19:07.524+03:002009-10-18T05:19:07.524+03:00I think it's very unfair what you say, Ponto. ...I think it's very unfair what you say, Ponto. While the data we get from Cheddar man is not too informative, a good deal of the pre-Neolithic DNA data we're enjoying is in fact Epipaleolithic. <br /><br />Many Prehistorians make a difference between Epipaleolithic (what we had in Europe) and Mesolithic (what happened in certain areas of West Asia): one being a mere extended Paleolithic after the Ice Age and the other being effectively transitional toward that invention that is farming and herding. There was no native advancement in that direction in Europe in the Epipaleolithic and the knowledge of agriculture and animal husbandry (and also that of high seas sailing that so much power gave to us later on) came to us from, ultimately, West Asia. <br /><br />Now, if it came with the farmers in the pack or was mostly the knowledge, the seeds and the animals what arrived is what we are discussing here. But there is no doubt that the ultimate source of this important transformation was outside of Europe, in West Asia. <br /><br />It's impossible to know if Europeans would have developed some sort of Neolithic on their own without that inspiration (it happened in other places, like America) but what is sure is that in fact all the Neolithic "science" came from the other side of the Bosporus. There was no Paleolithic-Neolithic transition in Europe: what we had was the arrival from outside of farmers whose ways we copied - or (not my opinion, at least for most cases) who replaced the natives thanks to their many extra calories per hectare.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82603909140269863482009-10-18T04:20:06.909+03:002009-10-18T04:20:06.909+03:00Cheddar Man is Paleolithic? A long bow to draw. Th...Cheddar Man is Paleolithic? A long bow to draw. The Holocene started 10 kya and ushered in the Neolithic age. It is splitting hairs to make Cheddar Man whose remains are about 9 ky old a Paleolithic Man. Sure he may have used stone tools, so did Neolithic age people. He lived in a cave, so did the first farmers. What is the difference? Cheddar Man was found in England on the backside and backward end of Europe. Cheddar Man is more correctly a Mesolithic European yet untouched by Neolithic farming way of life which took off in England some time after he died.<br /><br />The problem with genetics is that people have the habit of running off like rabid dogs frothing at the mouth by the slightest, insignificant detail. Ten thousand years back in European history is nothing, certainly not any connection to real Paleolithic humans living in Europe who mostly were Neanderthals not modern humans like Cheddar Man. Even the infamous Cro Magnon, Old Man, found under a rock shelf in France predates Cheddar by nearly 20 ky. Don't make mountains out of molehills, and don't listen to dickheads like Sykes. Just because the Brits are backward in taking up ideas like farming, the backwardness towards ideas has come with them into today, and have some mtDNA found now in Europe is really quite unspectacular.<br /><br />What did Cheddar Man tell us? The his version of mtDNA U existed at the time of his birth and maybe a century before (he had a mother!), nothing more.<br /><br />In Europe the Neolithic transition from a Mesolithic life style took some thousands of years, and happened is a saltatory manner. Even today in Europe there are humans who live an essential Mesolithic lifestyle, hunting/fishing and gathering and prefer it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9391029815621072352009-10-11T06:43:18.552+03:002009-10-11T06:43:18.552+03:00Ok, this is the link to the PP presentation: http:...Ok, this is the link to the PP presentation: http://www.pasteur.fr/~tekaia/BCGA/TALKS/Rym_Kefi.ppt. Browse to slide number 27. <br /><br />The presentation is signed by Dr. Rym Kèfi, so guess that's what he actually means. Obviously he's not talking of J or T but of JT(xJ,T).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71274146801651683132009-10-11T06:35:50.347+03:002009-10-11T06:35:50.347+03:00Found it at Mathilda's partial transcription o...Found it at Mathilda's partial transcription of Kèfis paper:<br /><br /><i>In modern Human population, JT is presents only in:<br /><br />1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco <br />1,8% of Sicilians,<br />1,6% of Italians</i>.<br /><br />However, when I search for the keyword "JT" in the French original, I cannot find that paragraph. I believe that Mathilda copied it from an English version of the paper (a power point presentation I think, I have seen it myself) and later changed the link to the original in French because it went broken. <br /><br />Can't say much more.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77275397531332799952009-10-11T06:22:38.792+03:002009-10-11T06:22:38.792+03:00Wait. Actually Kèfi says:
De plus, tous les haplo...Wait. Actually Kèfi says:<br /><br /><i>De plus, tous les haplogroupes observés chez<br />Taforalt sont retrouvés chez cette population actuelle, même<br />l'haplogroupe J/T. Ce dernier, rarement représenté dans les<br />populations actuelles, est absent dans les populations nord<br />africaines à l'exception de la population berbère du Nord<br />du Maroc (1,6%)</i><br /><br />So, even if Kèfi is implying JT(xJ,T) most probably, it's not clear enough. I must have known this issue of JT* as North African/Italian from some other paper and surely browsing at <a href="http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Mathilda's blog</a> (specialized in North African DNA and prehistory) we should be able to find it. I'm sorry I can't recall that one right now. I'll tell you as soon as I find it.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87970400514641413182009-10-11T06:15:35.750+03:002009-10-11T06:15:35.750+03:00That's very, very interesting. CRS in what ran...<i>That's very, very interesting. CRS in what range of HVS-I?</i> -<br /><br />No idea. The supplementary material just lists its HVS-I haplotype as CRS. <br /><br /><i>Found it:<br /><br />"Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Characterization of Pasiegos, a Human Isolate from Cantabria (Spain)" (Maca-Meyer, 2003)</i>.<br /><br />I think it may be that one, though I only recall one individual, not two. But whatever. <br /><br /><i>...it seems that U* is about 10% to 15% CRS</i>.<br /><br />I take your word on that. <br /><br /><i>You know, it creeps me out when I read some of these studies. Are they going around pulverising all these priceless fossils into dust? Do they have to destroy an entire tooth for an mtdna test?</i> -<br /><br />I wouldn't mind so much if the test results were unambiguous but testing only the HVS-I it seems we only get more confusion. <br /><br /><i>I've been trying to find info on JT(xJ,T) but I can't. Exactly in what studies was it found? Do you know any HVS-I data about them?</i> - <br /><br />I think my only reference on this is <a href="http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bsecher/Articles/P3-%20Kefi%20et%20al%20,%20Anthropologie%202005.pdf" rel="nofollow">Kèfi's paper on Taforalt aDNA</a> (in French). Though there should be others because he's only mentioning that fact after he found 3 or 4 likely JT in the remains. <br /><br />His sequences for Taforalt JT are: 16126C-16355T, 16126C-16304C and 16126 C. Plus another one tagged as JT or U6 with the sequence: 16126C-16172C-16174T.<br /><br />He correctly describes his many CRS individuals as "H or U" but in North Africa, if it's not U6 it's most likely that it's not U. CRS in modern North African samples (other studies) was invariably classified as H1, as far as I have seen.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52198651057525461802009-10-10T23:18:10.551+03:002009-10-10T23:18:10.551+03:00As you know, I tend to agree with that because now...<i>As you know, I tend to agree with that because nowadays CRS HVS-I is almost only found in H1 samples (there are others but are very rare, including U). But in Bramanti's sequences, there is one, Hohler Fels [49 Ib1 66], that is defined as U* by the coding region's polymorphisms: CRS; 1721C 7028Y 12372A 14766T 14793A.</i><br /><br />That's very, very interesting. CRS in what range of HVS-I?<br /><br /><i>I remember to have seen somewhere listed a modern U (U*?) with CRS haplotype from Asturias.</i><br /><br />Found it:<br /><br />"Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Characterization of Pasiegos, a Human Isolate from Cantabria (Spain)" (Maca-Meyer, 2003)<br /><br />2 samples of U* - CRS (one from Cantabrians, one from Pasiegos).<br />8 samples of U* - not-CRS (from Cantabrians, Lebaniegos, and Pasiegos).<br /><br />So we have 20% CRS in U*.<br /><br />In Alvarez-Iglesias (2009), he found 5 U* (Cataluña and Galicia), and none were CRS.<br /><br />So combining Maca-Meyer and Alvarez-Iglesias (btw, what's up with the double names?), we have 13% CRS in U*. But 3 of the 5 Alvarez U* samples have 270 (aka U5), and 2 of these actually have 192-270 (U5a). That looks really bad. And a 4th has 192-311. 192 is typical of U5, but it's extremely rare that U5 will be missing 270, so I guess we can presume it's U*. So I'd say we really have 12 Iberian U*, and 2 are CRS, so 17% of U* is CRS.<br /><br />For comparison, in mitosearch, after discarding some 20 samples that really belonged to U8, I ended up with 60 U* samples, of which only 1 was CRS. But excluding the volatile mutation 16519, since all these studies typically use an HVS-I range between 16000 and 16400, the number of U* CRS increases to 5 or 6, resulting in 10% of U* being CRS.<br /><br />In Richards (2000), using a very restricted HVS-I range (16090 to 16365), he found that 8 of 39 U* were CRS, or 21%. [Note that I adjusted his numbers a bit because I discarded obvious U8 samples and I reduced 9 Iberian U*-CRS to just 1 because they were most probably a case of local genetic drift.]<br /><br />So it all fits rather well. Richards' somewhat higher percentage of CRS is due to his much more limited HVS-I range. Taking that into account, and discarding the volatile mutation 16519, it seems that U* is about 10% to 15% CRS.<br /><br />I'm suddenly very interested in U* and CRS, thanks to your pointing out to me that one of the hunter-gatherer studies (U4/U5) found a U*-CRS. That's very, very interesting... revealing, actually...<br /><br /><i>the way to go in order not to waste such precious research attempts on very valuable and rare material is to try to test coding region polymorphisms.</i><br /><br />You know, it creeps me out when I read some of these studies. Are they going around pulverising all these priceless fossils into dust? Do they have to destroy an entire tooth for an mtdna test?<br /><br /><i>On being (potentially) J. It's an interesting speculation. In your opinion, could it be the rare JT(xJ,T) that seems only to exist in North Africa (where it seems pretty old) and Italy? If necessarily J, what subclade would you suggest? J2b maybe?</i><br /><br />I've been trying to find info on JT(xJ,T) but I can't. Exactly in what studies was it found? Do you know any HVS-I data about them?<br /><br />The 261-274 combination makes J1b the best bet. But every J sub-haplogroup has its problems. In the case of J1b, aside from the fact that it's missing 069-126 (a problem with any J group), it's also missing 145 and 222, which are near universal in J1b. Like I said in my first post, it's closest to J1, but it's not close at all.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48705592737970122852009-10-10T05:09:11.142+03:002009-10-10T05:09:11.142+03:00This is what Logan wrote on “Genealogy-DNA”:
And...This is what Logan wrote on “Genealogy-DNA”:<br /> <br />And this gives:<br />> > C16262T<br />> > C16270T<br />> > A16275A !<br />> > <br />> > Oh dear!<br /><br />Now Argiedude makes other observations and I take note of it.<br />It is 4 o’clock in the night. To-morrow morning I must go to work (I am a teacher in the High School). In the afternoon and Sunday I’ll examine again the matter.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57455655686632658432009-10-10T02:03:27.262+03:002009-10-10T02:03:27.262+03:00Argiedude:
The Borgo Nuovo sample from 6,000 year...Argiedude:<br /><br /><i>The Borgo Nuovo sample from 6,000 years ago with no mutations (CRS) is of course most likely H</i>. <br /><br />As you know, I tend to agree with that because nowadays CRS HVS-I is almost only found in H1 samples (there are others but are very rare, including U). But in Bramanti's sequences, there is one, Hohler Fels [49 Ib1 66], that is defined as U* by the coding region's polymorphisms: CRS; 1721C 7028Y 12372A 14766T 14793A. <br /><br />I remember to have seen somewhere listed a modern U (U*?) with CRS haplotype from Asturias. <br /><br />The Paglicci study also provided one case that was CRS and probably HV(xH). <br /><br />However I'd think it odd that most of the unclear aDNA CRS sequences would not be H (or rather H1 - AFAIK CRS haplotype is very rare in other H haplogroups, probably limited to H2a2). What is clear is that HVS sequencing alone gives inconclusive results and the way to go in order not to waste such precious research attempts on very valuable and rare material is to try to test coding region polymorphisms.<br /><br />...<br /><br />On being (potentially) J. It's an interesting speculation. In your opinion, could it be the rare JT(xJ,T) that seems only to exist in North Africa (where it seems pretty old) and Italy? If necessarily J, what subclade would you suggest? J2b maybe?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13257408175184077462009-10-10T01:41:58.706+03:002009-10-10T01:41:58.706+03:00Gioello: I don't get what you mean.
1. You c...Gioello: I don't get what you mean. <br /><br />1. You claim that the Villabruna sequence has the 16270T mutation but that is not what the paper says. It says: 16261T, 16274A. <br /><br />2. Then you "explain" that Ian Logan has "reconstructed" that sequence as 16270T (16261T, I presume), what, to say the least, I find quite shocking and in need of a good explanation. But it seems that he still thinks it's H (another explanation needed probably). <br /><br />If nothing else, you should think in your "dumb" (or possibly uninformed) readers when you write, thanks. :)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36752668884057813282009-10-10T00:34:30.896+03:002009-10-10T00:34:30.896+03:00I just noticed something in my previous post.
&qu...I just noticed something in my previous post.<br /><br /><i>"The Etruscan sequences show substitutions at sites (069, 126, 223, 270, and 356) known to be prone to recurrent mutation or postmortem damage (Gilbert et al. 2003)."</i><br /><br />Two of the mutations listed as prone to damage are 069 and 126. Those are the 2 mutations I noted in my previous comment were missing from the 14,000 year old Villabruna sample to confirm its membership in J1. Villabruna has 16261 and 16274, which are found together in 22 J samples and in 0 non-J samples. But it's lack of mutations 16069 and 16126 was a serious problem for considering it a J. The quote above informs us that 16069 and 16126 are amongst the mutations most prone to degradation, so their absence in Villabruna might have a valid explanation and the sample could well be a J, after all.<br /><br />And again, because of the implications, I think it's more interesting that Villabruna isn't a U4/U5, instead of wether or not it's an H.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1728569280647802202009-10-10T00:28:31.563+03:002009-10-10T00:28:31.563+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10965509317727356382009-10-10T00:19:12.513+03:002009-10-10T00:19:12.513+03:00The Villabruna sample from 14,000 years ago with 1...The Villabruna sample from 14,000 years ago with 16261, 16274 is closest to J1, but it's not close at all (the study identified it as H). Only 3% of J1 samples have both 16261 and 16274. In mitosearch I found 22 J samples that had both 16261 and 16274, out of 2,000 total. I found absolutely zero non-J samples with that combination, out of 20,000 total samples. But the real problem is that J1 almost always includes 16069 and 16126, which Villabruna does not. I'd say it's more interesting wether or not the sample is U4/U5, instead of H.<br /><br />The Mezzocorona sample from 6,000 years ago with 16126, 16292, 16294 is most likely T3, with a very slim chance of T2. T3 is found at around 0.5% in north & south Europe, Anatolia, Caucasus, and the Middle East. The study identified it as T.<br /><br />The Borgo Nuovo sample from 6,000 years ago with no mutations (CRS) is of course most likely H.<br /><br />Regarding Dienekes' observation that the CRS has been corrected and this study was using the older version, you can see in the link below that the corrections that were made were mostly in the coding region, a couple in the HVRII, and none in the HVRI.<br /><br />http://www.mitomap.org/CambridgeReanalysis.htm<br /><br />The 14,000 year old Villabruna sample had 6 errors, and one of them was 16270T, the mutation that identifies U5. The Mezzocorona had 0 errors. The Borgo Nuovo had 1 error, and it was 16270T again.<br /><br />From the study of Etruscan mtdna:<br /><br />"The Etruscan sequences show substitutions at sites (069, 126, 223, 270, and 356) known to be prone to recurrent mutation or postmortem damage (Gilbert et al. 2003)."<br /><br />And notice that another mutation prone to damage is 16356, which is typical of U4 (and H1b).<br /><br />The mutations of the 14,000 year old Villabruna sample were obtained in 2 of 3 analysis, while the mutations of the Mezzocorona sample were obtained in 4 of 4 and 6 of 6 analysis. The Villabruna analysis that failed to identify 16261 and 16274 is the one that produced the false positive for 16270. I wonder if the analysis of Villabruna were conducted all over again from scratch, perhaps this time it would've been identified as U5?<br /><br /><br />......................<br /><br />Gioiello, I think what happened is a slight mix-up when preparing the pdf, but that the results as initially described by Di Benedetto (16261 and 16274) are correct. The reason the 16261 and 16274 mutations don't line up correctly with the 16270T mutation is because one of these 2 sheets of raw data was unwittingly shifted one base to the left/right when preparing the pdf.<br /><br />Also, since 16270T was found once in 3 analysis, while the other 2 were found in 2 of 3 analysis, it's more likely the sample has 16261 and 16274, but not 16270T. Still, it's kind of shaky. Like I said above, perhaps if they ran this test all over again from scratch, the results would be U5.argiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11512295756932222613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63160324079873670282009-10-09T17:30:34.413+03:002009-10-09T17:30:34.413+03:00As Ian Logan has reconstructed, the mtDNA of Villa...As Ian Logan has reconstructed, the mtDNA of Villabruna has: <br />C16262T<br />C16270T<br />and is H1.<br />There is in mitosearch a mtDNA from Germany with these mutations, plus T16519C not tested on the Villabruna sample.<br />Then H1 is in Italy from at least 14,000 years.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43732115657888112462009-10-09T16:25:38.706+03:002009-10-09T16:25:38.706+03:00I think that we must thank once more Argiedude, wh...I think that we must thank once more Argiedude, who has demonstrated on “Genealogy-Dna” that the paper of Di Benedetto (Mitochondrial DNA sequences in prehistoric human remains from the Alps), but which has as a mentor one of the most ferocious Italian against Italians (Barbujani/Farfugliani) and who tries to demonstrate with his master Cavalli Sforza that Europeans come from Middle East and not from Paleolithic or Mesolithic European, is false.<br />The Paleolithic sample from Villabruna has the mutation 16270T, that defines U5 (don’t forget that U5b3 was born in Italy during Mesolithic and expanded everywhere, also to Middle East). Then it is false to assert that there isn’t connection between Paleolithic Europeans and today ones.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999270356447668208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88194357246917128002009-10-09T03:35:26.935+03:002009-10-09T03:35:26.935+03:00BTW, I have just noticed that the sequence 16356C ...BTW, I have just noticed that the sequence 16356C that Malmström uses to identify U4 can be subjected to the same critique (it could be H1b for example, as I can't find 16260T listed anywhere - there are other candidates but much less likely: M42a, C1a).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23088647024960461632009-10-09T02:42:57.236+03:002009-10-09T02:42:57.236+03:00Ok, you may have a point, however I cannot share y...Ok, you may have a point, however I cannot share your scepticism, which I know is only founded on MCH beliefs ultimately. <br /><br />Btw, I found that all the Haak's N1a individuals, had, besides of the N1a and N1a1 markers, the 16223-T marker, which is not listed at PhyloTree as defining any N1 clade and that has also been ignored by Haak himself at fig. 2 (the phylogenetic tree). Do you have any explanation for this?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53397508680464363922009-10-09T00:39:21.748+03:002009-10-09T00:39:21.748+03:00I know. But it's still H
No it's not. The...<i>I know. But it's still H</i><br /><br />No it's not. The paper uses outdated (1996) phylogeny. There is no reason to assume that the observed sequence from Villabruna belongs to haplogroup H. I will not repeat my <a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/modern-scandinavians-descended-from.html" rel="nofollow">argument</a> on why haplogroup inferences based on present-day frequencies of control region polymorphisms in different backgrounds are suspect; suffice to say that for the Villabruna sequence where not even present-day frequency data are in existence, such inferences are doubly suspect. The sequence is ascribed to haplogroup H only on the basis of the absence of diagnostic CR polymorphisms frequent in Torroni et al. (1996).Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-47707113993610179812009-10-08T23:18:19.096+03:002009-10-08T23:18:19.096+03:00I know. But it's still H, what implies that mt...I know. But it's still H, what implies that mtDNA haplogroup H existed in Europe in the Late Upper Paleolithic beyond the Portuguese samples (on which you cast doubt) and beyond the Moroccan samples (that you considered "irrelevant", though IMO they are very relevant when you consider the whole picture) and beyond the unclear samples of Paglicci 23 and Sunghir. <br /><br />It is also interesting because it is quite close geographically to the Swabian samples (though sure, some 14,000 years ago the Alps were an absolute impassable frozen barrier). It is also close to the possible source of Danubian Neolithic H (and other haplogroups) that I tentatively suggested that was in the Middle Danube or maybe the Balcans (and not in West Asia) and because H again shows up in the Neolithic of the area (three samples: 1 H, 1 T and 1 K, this last one Ötzi), precisely when these lineages were showing up in Germany as well. <br /><br />It suggests that, the same that you think (maybe with some reason) that haplogroup U (U5 and U4 specially) was dominant in Central/North Paleolithic Europe, haplogroup H could well have been dominant in the southern half of the continent. <br /><br />It is an important piece in the aDNA puzzle of Europe, though of course, I also wish we'd have many more.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-13549051217325701822009-10-08T18:59:12.445+03:002009-10-08T18:59:12.445+03:00>> An individual from Villabruna (Trentino-S...>> An individual from Villabruna (Trentino-South Tirol, Northern Italy) had that haplogroup c. 14,000 years ago, per Di Benedetto 2000. <br /><br />From the paper:<br /><br /><i>All the neolithic sequences have been observed in contemporary Europeans, suggesting<br />genealogical continuity between the neolithic and present-day European mtDNA gene pool. The mtDNA<br />sequence from a 14 000 year-old specimen was not observed in any contemporary Europeans, raising the<br />possibility of a lack of continuity between the mesolithic and present-day European gene pools.</i>Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17527925677879649802009-10-08T15:23:19.631+03:002009-10-08T15:23:19.631+03:00Sorry to reopen this discussion but I've been ...Sorry to reopen this discussion but <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/10/european-ancient-mtdna-in-sequential.html" rel="nofollow">I've been working hard</a> on this matter of ancient European mtDNA the last week and today I have finally found what seems the evidence for a more widespread presence of mtDNA in Paleolithic Southern Europe (at least) than just Portugal and Morocco. <br /><br />An individual from Villabruna (Trentino-South Tirol, Northern Italy) had that haplogroup c. 14,000 years ago, per <a href="http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n9/abs/5200514a.html" rel="nofollow">Di Benedetto 2000</a>. <br /><br />Thanks to Jean Manco (in <a href="http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml" rel="nofollow">whose site</a> I found that and many other references) and to PConroy for pointing me there.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68885954100473697582009-10-01T23:13:34.566+03:002009-10-01T23:13:34.566+03:00Distribution of mtdna U (U5*, U4*) is allmost the ...Distribution of mtdna U (U5*, U4*) is allmost the same as ydna N1c*. Post-LGM recolonisation of Northern Eurasia ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009030021510549527noreply@blogger.com