tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1750566154200140941..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: ASHG 2013 abstractsDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7866401773015762722013-09-19T16:43:23.534+03:002013-09-19T16:43:23.534+03:00I noted the assumption that the population of Deni...I noted the assumption that the population of Denisovans was relatively low. But the Denisovans and others could have been in coastal regions and islands which were inundated at the end of the Glacial Maximum. We'd have to be scanning the ocean floor for Denisovans and others.stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547870297907131499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53923257626555752372013-09-19T06:17:47.339+03:002013-09-19T06:17:47.339+03:00"It makes no sense that the ~60,000 years of ..."It makes no sense that the ~60,000 years of drift actually took place in Saudi Arabia (SA)" <br /><br />I wouldn't expect '~60,000 years of drift' in Arabia but we do see evidence of at least a period of drift before mt-DNAs M and N expanded beyong Arabia in the string of mutations at the base of each haplogroup. <br /><br />"SA would not have supported a sufficiently large population during much of that time" <br /><br />That would explain the apparent lack of immediate expansion on leaving Africa. The population in Arabia was of limited size for some time. <br /><br />"mtDNA M and N are almost perfectly sorted, geographically. Almost impossible if SA was the distribution center". <br /><br />But it makes complete sense if we consider the possibility that M and N took separate and distinct routes east. I have long assumed the distribution indicates exactly that. The two haplogroups did not expand together. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4315511067316581602013-09-17T05:50:48.760+03:002013-09-17T05:50:48.760+03:00@PCconroy
I doubt your Ukrainian or Caucasus rela...@PCconroy<br /><br />I doubt your Ukrainian or Caucasus relatives are particularly ancient. I dont think identifiable segments would last that long. Irish soldiers used to hire out to foreign governments regularly, all across Europe. Wild geese they were called, and then there are the refugees travelling away from the wars. At times Ireland was considered very cosmopolitan.<br /><br />I have one Greek relative with a big segment who I think is a descendant of a soldier cousin from the first world war. I actually know of one distant uncle who was in that part of Greeece in WWI. The Greek relative swears he is entirely greek with some caucasus. But appears he has only tracked his male relatives. Apparently any genetic line that passes through a woman does not count.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72906772734363024312013-09-16T07:57:14.498+03:002013-09-16T07:57:14.498+03:00Re J. J. Farrell et al.:
It makes no sense that t...Re J. J. Farrell et al.:<br /><br />It makes no sense that the ~60,000 years of drift actually took place in Saudi Arabia (SA):<br /><br />- SA would not have supported a sufficiently large population during much of that time<br /><br />- Apart from L3, SA is not host of a wide range of particularly old uniparental haplogroups - they are in fact found in South and Southeast Asia.<br /><br />- mtDNA M and N are almost perfectly sorted, geographically. Almost impossible if SA was the distribution center.<br /><br />- If SA clusters with Europe, then why do they have such vastly different uniparental markers? The only possible answer is that during back-migration from India/Pakistan, each received an autosomally similar group, but with a different subset of uniparental markers. In SA they perhaps mixed with some surviving group, and Europe had later admixture from Siberia and the Middle East - altogether still keeping it closer to SA than to Asia proper (I am assuming they used East Asia, here).<br /><br />Could it be that Saudis <i>now</i> are closer to that population expanding 50,000 ya than other extant populations? Of course, they likely have less admixture from other populations - especially if it is true that they have no African admixture (which differs from other analyses I have seen). Asia and Europe remained in contact, Europe and parts of the Middle East remained in contact, Europe, the Middle East, and India remained in contact, etc.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31884452066786665122013-09-13T00:10:17.820+03:002013-09-13T00:10:17.820+03:00The point of my post was, since I'm Irish, wit...<i>The point of my post was, since I'm Irish, with no recent admixture - how do you explain my strange "relatives"?<br /><br />The segments I share with people from the Caucasus and Ukraine (11cM) must represent some ancient sharing, and give some clues to the possible route Neolithic, Iron-Age or Indo-Europeans took to reach Ireland...</i><br /><br />What do Caucasians and Ukrainians have to do with the Vietnamese?<br />Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33119906194862184392013-09-12T20:34:48.296+03:002013-09-12T20:34:48.296+03:00@Onur,
The point of my post was, since I'm Ir...@Onur,<br /><br />The point of my post was, since I'm Irish, with no recent admixture - how do you explain my strange "relatives"?<br /><br />The segments I share with people from the Caucasus and Ukraine (11cM) must represent some ancient sharing, and give some clues to the possible route Neolithic, Iron-Age or Indo-Europeans took to reach Ireland...pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89347540740000350522013-09-12T19:11:58.377+03:002013-09-12T19:11:58.377+03:00"We already have dna from khazarian royal bur..."We already have dna from khazarian royal burial mounds and it matches up to some living jewish americans."<br /><br />Grognord, I too would like to see the reference to Ancient DNA testing of Khazarian burial mounds. Can't find anything like that on Google Scholar, so please do share. <br /><br />I don't quite understand this whole Khazarian-Ashkenazi hullabaloo. If the Khazar elite did in fact contribute to the contemporary Ashkenazi genome, it couldn't possibly be much. It's obvious that Ashkenazi are overwhelmingly Greco-Roman, with lesser but significant contributions from an original Levantine population and much later local European populations. Who cares if a little Khazar snuck in there? The implication that this somehow relates to modern Jews' claim to Israel is absurd...<br /><br />"clearly the american jewish people are also a different subset than what is called ashkenazi as a blanket term these days. They much more heavily come from the rheinland where it's said many settled right after the fall of khazaria, and they have much higher IQs on average than jews living abroad."<br /><br />Again, any evidence? Established historical scholarship indicates a migration from Italy to the Rhineland a millennium ago which corresponds with genetic studies. And American Jews different from Ashkenazi living abroad -- LOL!PFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13780789381709373839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58241354365723701912013-09-12T13:14:22.802+03:002013-09-12T13:14:22.802+03:00How is it possible to claim results about the Khaz...How is it possible to claim results about the Khazars without knowing exactly who were the Khazars?<br />The fact that Khazars were described by some authors as red hair people seems to point a kind of Iranian or Tocharian origin rather than a altaic turk one's.<br />Also it seems that many tribes confederate and assimilated different ethnies including some caucasians.<br /><br /> mregdnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08210210663227034644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76657996055038865802013-09-12T05:30:58.466+03:002013-09-12T05:30:58.466+03:00"I have no idea what this means [Our study st..."I have no idea what this means [Our study strongly supports the West Eurasian and East Asian route of migration and settlement of early Burmese population]". <br /><br />Surely it can only mean that the authors see two distinct routes into Burma. Presumably one from Southy Asia and one from East Asia.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71231025842428854442013-09-12T01:05:46.595+03:002013-09-12T01:05:46.595+03:00"suggest that the L3 haplogroup found in the ..."suggest that the L3 haplogroup found in the Saudi were present before the bottleneck 50,000 YBP"<br /><br />From the phraseology, it sounds to me that the authors are not suggesting ALL of L3, but part of it.<br /><br />Which is I think no change from the previous thought on L3.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9509044623589833792013-09-11T22:51:56.805+03:002013-09-11T22:51:56.805+03:00About the paper by Martínez Cruzado, I wonder: did...About the paper by Martínez Cruzado, I wonder: did they consider the fact that from around 1500 and at least for several decades the Spaniards (and some others) made slaves all along the Venezuelan coast and took those slaves to the first Spanish colonies in Puerto Rico, Hispaniola (currently Dominican Republic) etc? The practice was made illegal but it continued nonetheless. Alone the German Welser merchants were responsible for sending several thousand slaves from their base in Coro, Venezuela. There were other groups of Europeans based in Cubagua who made constant raids to the mainland and then took thousands of slaves to those islands. The native American population in the islands was collapsing, so a lot of human trafficking took place to replace the slaves until the trade with Africans started to pick up.Keplerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11125538872924743270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79438295240690710292013-09-11T09:44:43.321+03:002013-09-11T09:44:43.321+03:00Grognard,
I would really appreciate a reference fo...Grognard,<br />I would really appreciate a reference for the results of the khazarian royal burial mounds. It would be kind of strange that a serious ancient DNA study goes almost unnoticed. <br />Of course, if it not published in a peer reviewed journal, it is just some dude's claim, i.e., not even worth to mention.<br /><br />ThanksBlenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616453585535971384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40928404607120752362013-09-11T08:40:32.450+03:002013-09-11T08:40:32.450+03:00Arguing purely from the archaeological perspective...Arguing purely from the archaeological perspective, I see strong evidence for a link between the lithic technologies of Arabia >50 ka BP and that which appears in the Levant around 50 ka BP (i.e., the Emiran Industry). This emerging picture of L3 in the Arabian Peninsula prior to the Eurasian split is corroborated by the sudden introduction of preferential bidirectional point production syststems at sites like Boker Tachtit and Ain Difla in the arid margins of the Levant.<br /><br />Going east into Asia? All bets are off. There is NOTHING to suggest a cultural connection between South Asia and the Middle East, other than Blinkhorn et al.'s recent paper reporting (possible) Nubian Complex cores in Rajastan.<br /><br />Going west back into Africa? Yup, Relatively late Nubian Compex site at ~55 ka BP found around Lake Victoria a few months ago, not to mention Nubian assemblages found at K'One 5, Hargeisa, and Gorgora. Now, for someone to go back and determine the ages for these sites...mousterianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01255823018355386498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67208305962429859852013-09-10T23:15:30.982+03:002013-09-10T23:15:30.982+03:00"Our study strongly supports the West Eurasia..."Our study strongly supports the West Eurasian and East Asian route of migration and settlement of early Burmese population".<br /><br />I have no idea what this means.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20856962634838246232013-09-10T16:13:36.618+03:002013-09-10T16:13:36.618+03:00Sorry,
but that Saudi paper is just all-over-the-...Sorry,<br /><br />but that Saudi paper is just all-over-the-place. While the ooA timing is almost right, there is no way modern humans expanded as recently as 50,000 ya (i.e., much after the likely settlement of Sundaland and almost concomitant with expansion to the Levant and Europe).<br /><br />The L3 comment is interesting at best - but not likely given the data reported.<br /><br />Finally, I have yet to see any archaeological or genetic evidence that AMHs stayed/ survived west of eastern Pakistan ~50,000 ya or before.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92046725782387669612013-09-10T05:38:23.740+03:002013-09-10T05:38:23.740+03:00"Is it time to get out the cigars? Have we re..."Is it time to get out the cigars? Have we reached a 'genetics' tipping point to forever put 'Coasting out of Africa' to rest?" <br /><br />I have never, even for a moment, been at all persuaded of the coastal migration idea. There are far too many problems with the theory for it to be correct.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76063592283888778962013-09-10T02:24:23.018+03:002013-09-10T02:24:23.018+03:00Conroy,
I know that it sounds boring to you, but ...Conroy,<br /><br />I know that it sounds boring to you, but you are just an ordinary Irish. Just come to terms with it.<br />Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89710918311930232132013-09-09T23:08:43.189+03:002013-09-09T23:08:43.189+03:00@mousterian,
It's hard to tell without knowin...@mousterian,<br /><br />It's hard to tell without knowing the details. What does seem to be the case is that a lot of papers came up with African-Eurasian split of ~50k using the old "fast" autosomal mutation rate, and these dates are doubled using the newer directly measured "slower" rates.<br /><br />Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69369774433487356882013-09-09T08:05:45.549+03:002013-09-09T08:05:45.549+03:00D,
How much significance would you attach to the ...D,<br /><br />How much significance would you attach to the Saudi genome paper? This almost seems to match too closely with the Nubian Complex expansion in early MIS 5, followed by a subsequent spread into the Levant during the early MIS 3 Arabian pluvial.<br /><br />Is it time to get out the cigars? Have we reached a "genetics" tipping point to forever put "Coasting out of Africa" to rest?<br /><br />Jeffmousterianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01255823018355386498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24279764158670198052013-09-09T07:09:09.049+03:002013-09-09T07:09:09.049+03:00"'Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseian......"'Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseian...'. This is news to me. In fact, I wonder if it is even correct". <br /><br />According to information I have managed to collect over the years it is not correct. Yeniseian Q is mostly (if not entirely) the related Q-L54 derived Q-L330. <br /><br />"Last one is pretty bad-ass!' <br /><br />Yes. It is pretty much supports what Dienekes has been proposing for some time. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6411760499044958672013-09-09T05:27:27.323+03:002013-09-09T05:27:27.323+03:00It's frustrating to keep seeing this stated. T...It's frustrating to keep seeing this stated. The Khazars were not from the Caucasus for pete's sake, they were a North Euro/East Asian hybrid population. Nonetheless, I agree that very minimal contribution from the Khazars is in the Ashkenazi gene pool. K1a1b1a, for instance was not a woman from the Caucasus.AWoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42251421087409518282013-09-09T04:25:50.574+03:002013-09-09T04:25:50.574+03:00My father has a relative who is mtDNA F1a1c/R1b-L2...My father has a relative who is mtDNA F1a1c/R1b-L21 - so I guess this means that they are related to Vietnam possibly?<br /><br />My mother's Kazakh relative (predicted 4th cousin) is R9b1b/C3c, and male line descendant of:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edigu<br /><br />It seems that Edigu founded the Nogai Horde - which would be based near the North East Caucasus. My mother has previously been shown to have about 4% Lezgin (as am I)...<br /><br />pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26465711562433288872013-09-08T02:57:30.671+03:002013-09-08T02:57:30.671+03:00"Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseian...". ..."Q-M3 is mostly found in Yeniseian...". This is news to me. In fact, I wonder if it is even correct. G Horvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09821897990245113279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25792736589707728882013-09-07T11:35:45.277+03:002013-09-07T11:35:45.277+03:00I've seen the results for one of the Iron Age ...I've seen the results for one of the Iron Age Bulgarian samples and the Bronze Age Danish sample. They're not as detailed as I had hoped but still interesting.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77203315591847206612013-09-07T06:38:54.265+03:002013-09-07T06:38:54.265+03:00Really interesting papers coming up. Dienekes wil...Really interesting papers coming up. Dienekes will be excited about 'The Saudi Arabian Genome Reveals a Two Step Out-of-Africa Migration'. <br /><br />Quote: <br /><br />"The model estimated the initial separation from Africans at approximately 110,000 YBP. This intermediate population then underwent a long period of decreasing population size culminating in a bottleneck 50,000 YBP followed by an expansion into Asia and Europe". <br /><br />That actually explains almost everything. Both mt-DNA M and N have a series of mutations before they expand from where-ever it was they developed. <br /><br />Unfortunately 'Out of Africa, which way?' doesn't actually tell us the answer. We'll have to wait. Other interesting snippets: <br /><br />"Our study strongly supports the West Eurasian and East Asian route of migration and settlement of early Burmese population". <br /><br />East Asian route? Through Central Asia? <br /><br />"Surprisingly, we also show that western Austronesian-speaking populations have inherited substantial proportions of their Asian ancestry from a source that falls within the variation of present-day Austro-Asiatic populations in Southeast Asia". <br /><br />I wonder why they don't consider teh possibility of an earlier Austro-Asiatic substrate population in Western Indonesia. I understood that was generally accepted. <br /><br />"Comparisons to present-day genomes show that the Neandertals who contributed genes to present-day non-Africans were more closely related to this Caucasian Neandertal than to the Neandertals we sequenced from the Altai". <br /><br />That makes complete sense. Modern humans must have reached the Caucasus region before expanding further, leaving Y-DNA G, F3 and IJ behind as they moved east. The mt-DNA haplogroups X, N1'5, N2 and N3 may also have originated somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, perhaps near the Caucasus. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.com