tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1523473489777784757..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: "Phoenician" Y-chromosomesDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-62500072986022689532016-02-23T21:14:14.300+02:002016-02-23T21:14:14.300+02:00AndyB1580 I am similiar. My family is very well do...AndyB1580 I am similiar. My family is very well documented at least 26 gens. I am J2a2. I am Welsh and Scots/French. Its a well known that the Phoenicians traded with the Welsh for tin to make bronze. The most DNA matches I had in Wales were on Anglesey. In England, Staffordshire, 12th c. Two interesting traditions in those 26 generations: shipbuilders and metal workers. Genealogically, all my ancestors besides the Welsh came from the Cotentin, Normandy.<br />There's a common seafaring thread throughout this ancient story. The same people built ships and came to Boston in the 1630's already wealthy and carried on building ships. That's how J2a2 came to America in my story. <br />So are they Phoenicians-Carthaginians- Hispanic Romans-Vikings-or the original Brythonic people?<br /><br /><br />pamelajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18088994304907530862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52985055890123955192015-10-13T13:09:28.717+03:002015-10-13T13:09:28.717+03:00In ancient times "Libya" consisted of th...In ancient times "Libya" consisted of the majority of North Africa (including Egypt). Libya to the Egyptians and Greeks meant all of North Africa.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06699145488971404715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17483974866294038922015-10-13T13:05:22.937+03:002015-10-13T13:05:22.937+03:00Has anyone taken into consideration that scholars ...Has anyone taken into consideration that scholars say the Phoenicians originated from Bahrain? Everyone is quick to dismiss "Arab" Gulf DNA. What if the key to finding "Phoenician" (Semitic language) DNA is actually in the Arabian peninsula. Zalloua (and others) appears to want to distance whatever is Phoenician from the Arabian peninsula. <br /><br />Let's look at the pattern of migration of man out of Africa into Arabia and into the Levant, as well as out of Africa directly into the Levant, and the settlements. <br /><br />Greek historians place the origin of the Phoenicians as a people from what is now known as the Arab Gulf. <br /><br />Zalloua is obviously very anti-Arab. Who is to say the Phoenician DNA marker doesn't originate from Arabia considering the migrational patterns? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06699145488971404715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-17884046690858303502015-04-09T09:15:08.168+03:002015-04-09T09:15:08.168+03:00Excellent catch on the apparent missing Greek colo...Excellent catch on the apparent missing Greek colonists in Asia Minor. I was a bit perplexed why they were not even a consideration in this paper, especially when the history of Greece is fully evident of colonization in Anatolia.YeomanDroidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01611121652703582669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-66617207572341546322013-01-23T12:15:00.944+02:002013-01-23T12:15:00.944+02:00(very late comment)
The Poenecians cannot be def...(very late comment) <br /><br />The Poenecians cannot be define 'genetically' . They were an anceint maritime trading culture , now long gone. There is no way to isolate them by deductions from (alleged) modern day proxies, nor is there reason to assume they bore a distnict, single lineage<br /><br />I would also be careful not to overstate the Greek case - Greek domination (if we can call it that) in the Mediterranena was predominantly cultural and economic, not military or demographic <br /><br />RegardsRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-74129238428026383252012-10-05T19:03:00.408+03:002012-10-05T19:03:00.408+03:00I understand your misgivings about this study, but...I understand your misgivings about this study, but regarding the Cretian-Phoenician connection I have some additional data that seems to suggest just such a connection. I belong to a very rare haplotype within the J2a4d y-DNA haplogroup. I'm even an outlier in the J2 y-DNA groups, and even more an outlier in the English midlands where my family was recorded in the oldest surviving parish records. The scarcity of my haplotype suggested to me that my ancestors may have been the survivors of some conquered culture that was driven to near-extinction in ancient times.<br /><br />1)The town where my family was recorded was originally a Roman port about 40km from a Roman fort.<br /><br />2)The Roman legions that were stationed there were previously all in Cantabria, Spain which had alliances with Carthage and had a Carthagenean/Phoenician trade presence for exporting lead.<br /><br />3)The Roman navy is said to have conscripted sailors from the conquered Carthageneans.<br /><br />4)Other than a few unexplained outliers, the only other places where I have any reasonably close genetic matches are Cantabria, Sicily, Tunisia, Algiers, Turkey and Lebanon - all places with potential Phoenican histories.<br /><br />5)I match the "Phoenican" haplotypes cited in the Genographics project very closely.<br /><br />6)My J2a4d y-DNA haplogroup is said to have originated in Crete.<br /><br />7)Phoenicia only appeared in the historical record after the decline of the Minoan culture on Crete.<br /><br />Circumstantial evidence, but there seems to be a consistent thread in it. Actually, I'm implying that Crete may have contributed a geneflow to Phoenicia (sea peoples?) not the reverse.AndyB1580https://www.blogger.com/profile/05525920008449648917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52940183906237549502008-11-16T23:10:00.000+02:002008-11-16T23:10:00.000+02:00Here there is something related to what I just sai...<I>Here there is something related to what I just said:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi_al-Himyari</I><BR/><BR/>That article is wrong Harbi Al-Himyari was the mentor of Jabir Bin Hayyan (8th century AD)<BR/><BR/>Muhammad Al-Himyari is the geographic traveller with the famous book:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab_al-Rawd_al-Mitar<BR/><BR/>He described the repopulation of Malta, it corresponds with the later link you posted linking the Maltese to 11th century Sicily-Calabria.<BR/><BR/>The muslims were pushed out of sicily North-West to South-East it was a slow process that took about 50 years that ended with the Muslims cornered in Noto which is the closest Sicilian port to Malta. Conversions must have toke place in the 12th & 13th century along with SicilySamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973132765317375532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50511170235841555802008-11-15T20:26:00.000+02:002008-11-15T20:26:00.000+02:00Sorry to put so many comments,but I found the arti...Sorry to put so many comments,<BR/><BR/>but I found the article that I wanted:<BR/><BR/>http://forum.stirpes.net/genetics-human-microbiology/13332-genetic-origin-contemporary-maltese.htmlAbate Vellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432942783700063102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46557146468346053592008-11-15T20:20:00.000+02:002008-11-15T20:20:00.000+02:00Here there is something related to what I just sai...Here there is something related to what I just said:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi_al-Himyari<BR/><BR/>All the arguments against this idea are self-serving, as you can see.<BR/><BR/>The last point is at best elusive.Abate Vellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432942783700063102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87481504809697804492008-11-15T20:03:00.000+02:002008-11-15T20:03:00.000+02:00I would like to point out another interesting fact...I would like to point out another interesting fact that may add something to undermine the credibility of this study.<BR/><BR/>As you may now, Sicily and Malta and strongly connected. Actually Malta was until very recently just one of the islands belonging to Sicily.<BR/><BR/>Now, the study claims basically that Lebanese people and Maltese people show a very high genetic similarity.<BR/><BR/>There is a problem though: to my knowledge none of the inhabitant of Malta at the time of the Phoenician could have transmitted that genetic heritage to this day, because it appears that the island lost all of its inhabitant in later times.<BR/><BR/>Malta has been completely repopulated with people coming from Sicily, and if I remember correctly this happened when Sicily was a Muslim kingdom.<BR/><BR/>So the similarity between Maltese and Lebanese does not go back to Phoenicians times.Abate Vellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432942783700063102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25794397193072732332008-11-14T09:14:00.000+02:002008-11-14T09:14:00.000+02:00Sorry Judith. "It's not because of a similarity o...Sorry Judith. "It's not because of a similarity of names (Peleset, Philistine) that archaeologists put the Sea Peoples in Philistia from the early 12th C on". <BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure that for the Egyptians the 'Sea People' included groups present in the Eastern Mediterranean long before the Philistines appeared there. Groups such as the Lukka, Sherden and Denyen, for example, were roaming around the region as early as the time of Akhenaten, so plenty of time to distribute any Y-chromosomes they had quite widely.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58984809554394707962008-11-14T05:04:00.000+02:002008-11-14T05:04:00.000+02:00Substantial frequency of F*(xH, I, J2, K) which sh...<I>Substantial frequency of F*(xH, I, J2, K) which should include J1 by and large was also found by Arredi et al.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't know about Arredi et al. it said (J* = 48% which is usually J1) OK so the Zalloua guys were sampling tourists!<BR/><BR/>J1 Tunisia<BR/><B>Arredi = 48%</B><BR/><B>Semino = 30%</B><BR/><B>Zalloua = 0%</B><BR/><BR/>How about this?<BR/><BR/>E1b1b Lebanon<BR/><B>Wells = 32%<BR/>Semino = 26%<BR/>Zalloua = 15.8%</B><BR/><BR/>So there is a trend of polishing J2 = Phoenician seafaring farmers when the older stats show E1b1b/T are stronger candidates <BR/><BR/>J2 <BR/>Iraqis 30% (sanchez et al.)<BR/><BR/>Iraq is probablly the highest nation with J2 (but the study ignored Mesopotamia & made it seem that J2 fades in the Syrian deserts (obviously), but then it peaks in Mesopotamia where its naturally connected to Anatolia.<BR/><BR/>The study ignores:<BR/>- The Mesopotamian J2 Assyrian recorded invasions & the Aramization of Lebanon followed by the Greco-Roman occupation. <BR/><BR/><B>They ignored:</B><BR/>(1500years of post-Phoenician J2 in the -heartland-)Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973132765317375532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56600970167774170332008-11-14T00:37:00.000+02:002008-11-14T00:37:00.000+02:00J2 in Tunisia in earlier studies accounts ~ 4%, sh...<I>J2 in Tunisia in earlier studies accounts ~ 4%, should be a bit higher in Modern Carthage & most the fertile regions of Tunisia because they had an influx of Iberian moriscos that moved into the region 400 years ago. They are known in Tunisia as the Andalusians!</I><BR/><BR/>If you search yhrd for the "Phoenician Colonization Signals" you will see that at least some of them are found in "Andalusian Arabs" from Tunisia.<BR/><BR/><I>Zalloua:<BR/>Tunisia J1 = 0%</I><BR/><BR/>I hadn't noticed that. It is pure nonsense of course. Substantial frequency of F*(xH, I, J2, K) which should include J1 by and large was also found by Arredi et al. (Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75:338–345, 2004)Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-81660426399894559112008-11-14T00:20:00.000+02:002008-11-14T00:20:00.000+02:00Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean Biggest...<B>Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean</B> <BR/><BR/><B>Biggest "footprint" = Tunisia</B><BR/><BR/>So could this explain?<BR/><BR/><B>Semino:<BR/>Tunisia J1 = 30% <BR/><BR/>Zalloua:<BR/>Tunisia J1 = 0%</B><BR/><BR/>This 0% was very necessary to prove that J2 sea faring farmer theory! <BR/><BR/>J2 in Tunisia in earlier studies accounts ~ 4%, should be a bit higher in Modern Carthage & most the fertile regions of Tunisia because they had an influx of Iberian moriscos that moved into the region 400 years ago. They are known in Tunisia as the Andalusians!Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973132765317375532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14035691366363318422008-11-13T22:23:00.000+02:002008-11-13T22:23:00.000+02:00I should add that the Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, K...I should add that the Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Kurdish) and Arabs (Palestinian and Bedouin) tested by Nebel et al. (2001) are all residents of the state of Israel or the Palestinian Authority Area. I am not sure about the location in which the sample of Muslim Kurds has been obtained.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-20337411655767399502008-11-13T17:21:00.000+02:002008-11-13T17:21:00.000+02:00"Sephardic Jews:23/78 = 29.5% P(xR1a)9/78 = 11.5% ..."Sephardic Jews:<BR/>23/78 = 29.5% P(xR1a)<BR/>9/78 = 11.5% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>3/78 = 3.8% R1a<BR/>12/78 = 15.4% J2<BR/>10/78 = 12.8% J(xJ2)<BR/>15/78 = 19.2% E<BR/>6/78 = 7.7% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)"<BR/><BR/>Those are quite diff than Semino (its obvious now that samples just give us a general idea!)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Semino et al:<BR/><B>Sepheradic Jews</B><BR/>E = 30% <BR/>J1= 12%<BR/>J2= 29%<BR/><BR/>Semino et al:<BR/><B>Tunisians</B><BR/>J1 = 30% (compared to 0% in Zalloua!)<BR/>J2 = 4%<BR/>E = 55.2%Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973132765317375532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2734844447418690372008-11-13T15:44:00.000+02:002008-11-13T15:44:00.000+02:00Terryt,It's not because of a similarity of names (...Terryt,<BR/><BR/>It's not because of a similarity of names (Peleset, Philistine) that archaeologists put the Sea Peoples in Philistia from the early 12th C on -- but because of the archaeological assemblage which appears there and not all the way to the Jordan. Large quantities of pottery, of course, but also settlement patterns, cult, metallurgy and glyptic: what Trude Dothan called "the Philistine/Sea Peoples" culture which was rooted in Aegean traditions.<BR/><BR/>Lots of up-to-date information in the studies <I>In Honor of Trude Dothan, Mediterranean Peoples in Transition</I> (1998). And please don't call me 'Judy'. My name is Judith.Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72792693074540803322008-11-13T11:10:00.000+02:002008-11-13T11:10:00.000+02:00In addition, the haplogroup R1a ranking would be a...In addition, the haplogroup R1a ranking would be amended as follows:<BR/><BR/>1. Serbia (11/81 = 13.6%)<BR/>2. Greece (40/297 = 13.5%)<BR/>3. Ashkenazim (10/79 = 12.7%)<BR/>4. Croatia (11/90 = 12.2%)<BR/>5. Muslim Kurds (11/95 = 11.6%)<BR/><BR/>Crete (18/168 = 10.7%) and Albania (5/51 = 9.8%) got bumped off the list.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44186961667729142282008-11-13T11:01:00.000+02:002008-11-13T11:01:00.000+02:00Ebizur. Thanks once more.Ebizur. Thanks once more.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-78873330801324817842008-11-13T10:56:00.000+02:002008-11-13T10:56:00.000+02:00comf said,"Tunisia also shows a zero...althou...comf said,<BR/><BR/>"Tunisia also shows a zero...although older studies had 6% & 10een% J1 in Tunisia, so it could be the same in Malta <BR/><BR/>I think most of the Maltese descend from Siculo-Arabic speaking Sicilian-Calabrian refugees who were cornered in Noto (the last Siclian muslim town). Noto is the closest part of Sicily to Malta...they also share the same genes"<BR/><BR/>I singled out the Maltese in my previous post because I was grouping J(xJ2) and T together as examples of Y-DNA haplogroups that might typically be found among Arabic-speaking peoples, and the Tunisian samples of Zalloua et al. actually did contain a fair number of haplogroup T individuals, so I could not have justly described the Tunisian samples as lacking both J(xJ2) and T.<BR/><BR/>However, you have made some very good points here. I have also been thinking about the possibility of linking the Arabic language of the Maltese to the haplogroup J(xJ2), T, and E1b1b found in Sicily. Of these three haplogroups, the Maltese sample of Zalloua et al. contains only 12/187 = 6.4% E1b1b and no examples of J(xJ2) or T, but all three of these haplogroups are found quite frequently in Sicily. I predict that J(xJ2) and T should also show up with at least low frequency in a larger sample of Maltese, but this is mere speculation.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, the Maltese sample of Zalloua et al. does contain a very high percentage of haplogroup J2 individuals, and at least some of this haplogroup J2 may have been brought to Malta by Semitic-speaking ancestors from Southwest Asia.<BR/><BR/>Here are some data on the Y-DNA of Jews and a few other Middle Eastern populations, courtesy of Nebel et al. (2001):<BR/><BR/>Muslim Kurds:<BR/>16/95 = 16.8% P(xR1a)<BR/>16/95 = 16.8% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>11/95 = 11.6% R1a<BR/>27/95 = 28.4% J2<BR/>11/95 = 11.6% J(xJ2)<BR/>7/95 = 7.4% E<BR/>4/95 = 4.2% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)<BR/>3/95 = 3.2% L<BR/><BR/>Kurdish Jews:<BR/>20/99 = 20.2% P(xR1a)<BR/>6/99 = 6.1% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>4/99 = 4.0% R1a<BR/>15/99 = 15.2% J2<BR/>22/99 = 22.2% J(xJ2)<BR/>12/99 = 12.1% E<BR/>19/99 = 19.2% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)<BR/>1/99 = 1.0% L<BR/><BR/>Sephardic Jews:<BR/>23/78 = 29.5% P(xR1a)<BR/>9/78 = 11.5% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>3/78 = 3.8% R1a<BR/>12/78 = 15.4% J2<BR/>10/78 = 12.8% J(xJ2)<BR/>15/78 = 19.2% E<BR/>6/78 = 7.7% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)<BR/><BR/>Ashkenazi Jews:<BR/>9/79 = 11.4% P(xR1a)<BR/>5/79 = 6.3% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>10/79 = 12.7% R1a<BR/>19/79 = 24.1% J2<BR/>15/79 = 19.0% J(xJ2)<BR/>18/79 = 22.8% E<BR/>3/79 = 3.8% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)<BR/><BR/>Palestinian Arabs:<BR/>12/143 = 8.4% P(xR1a)<BR/>9/143 = 6.3% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>2/143 = 1.4% R1a<BR/>2/143 = 1.4% A3b2-M13<BR/>24/143 = 16.8% J2<BR/>55/143 = 38.5% J(xJ2)<BR/>29/143 = 20.3% E<BR/>10/143 = 7.0% K(xO2b-SRY465, N1c-Tat, L-M20, P-92R7)<BR/><BR/>Bedouin:<BR/>2/32 = 6.25% Y(xA, DE, J, K)<BR/>3/32 = 9.4% R1a<BR/>1/32 = 3.1% J2<BR/>20/32 = 62.5% J(xJ2)<BR/>6/32 = 18.75% E<BR/><BR/>If all the haplogroup E individuals in these samples of Nebel et al. (2001) are assumed to belong to haplogroup E1b1b, then the Ashkenazim would bump Serbia out of the list for haplogroup E1b1b. As for the Sephardim, they appear to have notable amounts of haplogroup R1b (represented by P(xR1a) in the data of Nebel et al.) and haplogroup T (represented by K(xO2b, N1c, L, P)).Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-7065893085416436812008-11-13T03:37:00.000+02:002008-11-13T03:37:00.000+02:00Coastal Tunisia: 0/36Non-contact Tunisia: 0/94Malt...<I>Coastal Tunisia: 0/36<BR/>Non-contact Tunisia: 0/94<BR/>Malta: 0/187<BR/><BR/>I wonder how the Maltese acquired their Arabic language. This study's data show zero J(xJ2) and T in Malta.</I><BR/><BR/>Tunisia also shows a zero...although older studies had 6% & 10een% J1 in Tunisia, so it could be the same in Malta <BR/><BR/>I think most of the Maltese descend from Siculo-Arabic speaking Sicilian-Calabrian refugees who were cornered in Noto (the last Siclian muslim town). Noto is the closest part of Sicily to Malta...they also share the same genesSamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973132765317375532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88090739877827897002008-11-12T22:30:00.000+02:002008-11-12T22:30:00.000+02:00Judy. As I understand it 'Philistine' pottery ( a...Judy. As I understand it 'Philistine' pottery ( a hybrid between Mycenaean and Levantine) is quite widely distributed, right across to the Jordan River. Possibly through trade I'll admit. <BR/><BR/>"Where else would you like to put the Sea Peoples?" <BR/><BR/>Apart from the obvious connection between Peleset and Philistines. From being in the same place at the same time: how about Tjekker and Manasseh. From a similarity of names at about the same place and time: Denyen and Dan along with Weshesh and Asher. There is also often a connection made between Shekelesh and Issachar. The 'Sea People' could have been quite widespread.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-18480911301982707862008-11-12T12:20:00.000+02:002008-11-12T12:20:00.000+02:00Terryt, The Sea Peoples are archaeologically visib...Terryt, <BR/><BR/>The Sea Peoples are archaeologically visible (mainly through pottery) only in the Philistine cities on the southern coastal plain of Canaan. These are built on the ruins of Canaanite cities and clearly reflect the Aegean background of the new inhabitants. Where else would you like to put the Sea Peoples? <BR/><BR/>My point about the loss of Greek is that there is no trace of this tongue in the languages subsequently spoken in the area(unlike post-Norman English which most certainly shows large dollops of Norman French).Judith Weingartenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683483030413488309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31858951123278565362008-11-12T09:42:00.000+02:002008-11-12T09:42:00.000+02:00Ebizur, no mention of Israel, or any Jewish groups...Ebizur, no mention of Israel, or any Jewish groups, in any of your lists for comparison. Any additions you'd like to make? <BR/><BR/>Way back Comf wrote: "I think Israeli Y-DNA is a special case". <BR/><BR/>Why is it any different to anywhere else? Surely "you have to take each group aside, then get % to the total population, so we don't get a lot of confusion" for groups within any modern political boundaries. <BR/><BR/>Judith Weingarten wrote: "[Sea People] were never numerous enough to spread about their Chromosomes as some of you are suggesting. Even the main group in the Levant, which came into history as the inhabitants of the Philistine cities, had merged into the Canaanite population by Biblical times". <BR/><BR/>For a start we could argue as to whether the Philistines were in fact actually the main group. I'd argue that others survived long into Biblical times as well. But the fact they "had merged into the Canaanite population by Biblical times" in no way, on its own, negates a substantial movement. Suppose the migration was mostly of men with improved boating technology. Substantial numbers could have arrived, but had children with the local women. These would have been bilingual, speaking their mothers' language as well as any incoming one. Once the migration flow had ceased the original Semitic language would readily become re-established, just as English was after the Norman conquest.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42673372922760973302008-11-10T20:19:00.000+02:002008-11-10T20:19:00.000+02:00dienekes said,"I would warn against the belief tha...dienekes said,<BR/><BR/>"I would warn against the belief that these two are historically related. Within the Balkans they are not correlated. Also, R1a is concentrated in the eastern provinces of Turkey rather than the ones closest to the Balkans."<BR/><BR/>Well, the fact is that four out of five in the lists for haplogroup I and haplogroup R1a are the same: (1) Croatia, (2) Serbia, (4) Albania, (5) Greece for haplogroup I and (1) Serbia, (2) Greece, (3) Croatia, (5) Albania for haplogroup R1a. You are correct that <I>within</I> the Balkans taken alone, there is not a clearly positive correlation between the frequency of hg I and the frequency of hg R1a, but that would make some sense, because if hg I is larger in one population then there is that much less of the pie for hg R1a to occupy, and vice versa. My point is only that, in the greater Mediterranean region, haplogroup I and haplogroup R1a are clearly associated with the Balkans as a whole.<BR/><BR/><BR/>dienekes said,<BR/><BR/>"But, certainly the proposition that the Balkans have more I and R1a than West Asia is correct."<BR/><BR/>Not only do the Balkans have more I and R1a than West Asia, but they also have more of these haplogroups than Italy, Iberia, the Mediterranean islands (except Crete, which has substantial amounts of both I and R1a, and Sardinia, which has a very high frequency of haplogroup I but an extremely low frequency of haplogroup R1a), and North Africa as well.Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.com