tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1405229663769060242..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: NordicDB paper on Finns, Danes, and SwedesDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54434360962796864972010-08-06T23:59:26.267+03:002010-08-06T23:59:26.267+03:00Annie Mouse:"The second separate population (...Annie Mouse:"The second separate population (dark brown) I would guess has a more eastern, perhaps asian influence"<br /><br />After all these years and all these studies people still insist there is an Asian influence?? It's not Asian, it's ancient Nordic/Baltic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69562139315510912112010-08-03T15:40:49.383+03:002010-08-03T15:40:49.383+03:00"I agree it would be interesting to see how t..."I agree it would be interesting to see how this would look with Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian populations included."<br /><br />I'm not sure if this is what you want but here's one with Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries.<br /><br />http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/05/genetic-structure-of-eastern-european-populations/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64295645419695276782010-08-03T09:47:18.479+03:002010-08-03T09:47:18.479+03:00I meant Baltic as in ancient Baltic - not Slavo-Ba...I meant Baltic as in ancient Baltic - not Slavo-Baltic. Of course, if you call this Finnish, it's just a matter of nomenclature - but I think the term Finnish is misleading.<br /><br />This is the way I see it:<br /><br />Finns are different from other (central) northern Europeans in three respects: they retain a larger fraction of the ancient northern European population, their admixture is with the most Nordic agriculturalists (northern Swedes), only, and and they have some recent Sami admixture (themselves highly related but isolated for a long time). Estonians are extremely close to Finns but lack the Sami admixture, and Latvians and Lithuanians are almost as close but have some recent Slavic admixture.<br /><br />IMO, if you rotate the PC graph 45 degrees counter-clockwise, the vertical axis describes a Scandinavian-only cline between the most northern and northern-central European agriculturalists (Denmark = CEU!), while the horizontal describes the Baltic (but not Slavo-Baltic) gradient. So, as we know, some Finns are basically northern Swedes (but not Danish), whereas others fall more into the range of the ancient northern Baltic inhabitants (who continue to make up much of the genetic material in the Eastern Baltic, in general).<br /><br />I agree it would be interesting to see how this would look with Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian populations included.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-43919660680246742732010-08-02T14:19:29.115+03:002010-08-02T14:19:29.115+03:00I don't really see the Baltic component in Nor...I don't really see the Baltic component in Nordic countries. <br /><br />If we are speaking of northern Europe more generally, it is quite clear that there is a distinction between Germanics and Balto-Slavs.<br /><br />There are also clear clines within Germanics themselves (both towards the UK and towards C Europe), but it's not clear how these are formed. Potentially both differential admixture with pre-Germanic, pre-IE northern Europeans during the NW spread of IE languages, but also differentiatl admixture with non-Germanic languages (e.g. Celtic) during the S and W spread of Germanic languages may have played a role in creating such a cline.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19011936359135473652010-08-02T11:07:46.073+03:002010-08-02T11:07:46.073+03:00In my opinion, it is produced by the differential ...<i>In my opinion, it is produced by the differential representation of the two main population elements of the Nordic countries, namely the Germanic and Finnic elements.</i><br /><br />Dienekes,<br /><br />It looks to me that one can clearly distinguish a third component: the Baltic one - which is different from the other two. I believe there is a "Nordic" component that goes beyond Germanic and is common with many Swedes as well as NW Finns, and then the expected Baltic (regional paleolithic and early neolithic combined with SE finno-ugric - which could perhaps be separated at a higher level). That is, both the Nordic and Baltic deviate from central and northern central European.<br /><br /><i>It has to, mathematically. The second component cannot be a linear function of the first one, so its general nature has to be a quadratic function: a parabola.</i><br /><br />Doug, could you explain this a bit more? That doesn't ring true to me. The second component is by definition orthogonal to the first, and plotted on a perpendicular axis. Populations harboring a larger value of this one with respect to others can be located anywhere along PC1: so you can have an <i>L,</i> a <i>T,</i>, a <i>V,</i> a <i>U,</i> a <i>j</i> - there is nothing quadratic about the relation to PC1, other than that it trivially cannot be linear.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41879867005396240992010-08-01T17:36:08.682+03:002010-08-01T17:36:08.682+03:00A comment about PCA plots, and the equivalent MDS ...A comment about PCA plots, and the equivalent MDS ones:<br /><br />Any PCA plot of a fairly continuous distribution of populations will have an L or U shaped distribution. It has to, mathematically. The second component cannot be a linear function of the first one, so its general nature has to be a quadratic function: a parabola. This is best seen in plots of purely Eastern Asian origin from the Yakuts or Mongolians in the north down to the Cambodians or Malays in the south.<br /><br />But the usual European shape of the first two components is also from the same reason.<br />Doug McDonalddtvmcdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594633209626059331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72829404108934194122010-07-30T15:03:45.081+03:002010-07-30T15:03:45.081+03:00Argiedude, Helsinki samples probably consist of Fi...Argiedude, Helsinki samples probably consist of Finnish residents of Helsinki irrespective of whether they are orginally from there or recent migrants. So probably Helsinki samples are genetically an average of the whole Finnish population.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-56534642812632868492010-07-30T04:44:34.035+03:002010-07-30T04:44:34.035+03:00Can someone detail the exact origin of all the sam...Can someone detail the exact origin of all the samples in the graph?<br /><br />Can someone with access to the study find out if it has genetic distances (FST)?<br /><br />Is Botnia a precise historic region with agreed upon borders, or just a general term to refer to the region close to the Gulf of Bothnia?<br /><br />What do you all think about the fact that Bothnia is closer to Sweden than any other place in Finland? Is this unexpected from the point of view of how Sweden interacted historically with Finland? Would it have been more expected that the southwest region, such as Helsinki, would be closer to Sweden?aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-58422557690942799652010-07-30T03:42:46.164+03:002010-07-30T03:42:46.164+03:00To me what this map shows is a flow of genes betwe...To me what this map shows is a flow of genes between the UK and Scandinavia all the way up to Finland (pale orange). <br /><br />The Scandinavian/Swedish green is also being pulled in another direction (Saami maybe? or perhaps another aboriginal).<br /><br />There is also a separate flow between two different Finnish populations. One population is the one I mentioned above which is a the far end of the UK<->Scandinavia<->Finland flow (Atlantic coastal maybe?). The second separate population (dark brown) I would guess has a more eastern, perhaps asian influence (perhaps at the terminal of the inland flow between Asia and Europe).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86624224027729179752010-07-30T01:00:35.692+03:002010-07-30T01:00:35.692+03:00map = plotmap = plotOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-50374701912949948962010-07-29T21:51:18.122+03:002010-07-29T21:51:18.122+03:00A clearer version of the same map can be found in ...A clearer version of the same map can be found in the website of NordicDB with some information:<br /><br />http://www.nordicdb.org/database/Map.htmlOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.com