tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1259266561015811723..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: The shape of things to comeDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33158273352916155072010-10-24T00:56:13.349+03:002010-10-24T00:56:13.349+03:00"Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards ..."Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards are overlapped with French people and Swiss, as seen in many other autosomal studies. However north Italians overlap with spaniards and slightly with French. The map that you posted only takes into account some admixture parts, not the overall admixture. This is the overall map from the same study:"<br /><br />The Spanish do not cluster with the Swiss. Most or the Swiss cluster with or are near the Germans, Belgians, and French.<br /><br />Alot of studies have misrepresented the Swiss, making them appear more southwestern than they really are, because the studies used people of Geneva to represent Switzerland. That one study in 08 specifically looked at the genetic differentiation in Switzerland as related to the three main languages (which is related to geography). The German Swiss, forming the majority of native Swiss (abt. 70%), are plotted to the northeast of the French Swiss on the genetic map. The people of Geneva are French Swiss and are located at the extreme western part of Switzerland. So the Genevans are to the far southwest of the Swiss population on genetic maps and have misrepresented Swiss as being closer to the Spanish.<br /><br />I wish there were more genetic studies in the Swiss as a whole. I don't have a very clear picture of where they belong. I would generally define them as central European. Id also say the German Swiss are closest to the southwest Germans too.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-33511455283805347522010-10-23T22:41:37.190+03:002010-10-23T22:41:37.190+03:00"Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards ..."Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards are overlapped with French people and Swiss, as seen in many other autosomal studies. However north Italians overlap with spaniards and slightly with French. The map that you posted only takes into account some admixture parts, not the overall admixture. This is the overall map from the same study:<br /><br />http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg"<br /><br /><br />Who are those spaniards? <br />In 23andme many spaniards are different from french and above all they don't cluster at all with swiss people.<br />Anyway the map i posted doesn't concern only some admixture "parts", and it explain many of the levantine and n.africans results i have seen in many spaniards results at 23andme.Bobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615718074381134949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70088242780294668792010-10-23T21:11:31.590+03:002010-10-23T21:11:31.590+03:00Artu', on that plot Europeans appear too close...Artu', on that plot Europeans appear too close to each other because of the inclusion of populations from every corner of Earth (most of them aren't visible in your link, since your link contains only the West Eurasian part of that plot). <br /><br />Unlike your plot, this plot (a separate plot from the same study), in which both Spaniards and Tuscans appear away from Cypriots, Turks, Armenians, Georgians, Adygeis, Lezgins, the Druze and less Euro-mixed Jews, is much more detailed and accurate, since it uses only West Eurasian populations (you see all of it in my link):<br /><br />http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpgOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2041794924759852452010-10-23T20:43:54.515+03:002010-10-23T20:43:54.515+03:00Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards are ov...Artu that's not true. Overall spaniards are overlapped with French people and Swiss, as seen in many other autosomal studies. However north Italians overlap with spaniards and slightly with French. The map that you posted only takes into account some admixture parts, not the overall admixture. This is the overall map from the same study:<br /><br />http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpgGrIQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02907176579081773431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31288009800763094352010-10-23T17:29:02.902+03:002010-10-23T17:29:02.902+03:00In this map some spaniards are the only ones that ...In this map some spaniards are the only ones that show many people(5 subjects) close to armenians and cypriots while only two tuscans and a french are more close to georgians, probably because of the higher frequency of West Asian component compared to spaniards:<br />http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2977/magnification.jpg<br /><br />As previously said, if Spain was studied region by region the results would be different.<br /><br /><br /><br />I apologize with Dienekes for my off topic but i wanted to clear some mystifications.Bobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615718074381134949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36610049132467163952010-10-23T15:29:42.489+03:002010-10-23T15:29:42.489+03:00Where the hell do you see tuscans cluster with Jew...<i>Where the hell do you see tuscans cluster with Jews and Cypriots?<br />They are almost as distant as sardinians are and they are in the north italian plot.<br />TUSCANS is write Tuscans not ITA3 or ITA4...<br />You better start to learn at least the definitions.</i><br /><br />Alfio is right, Tuscans do not cluster with Jews and Cypriots on the MDS plot. Those Italians who cluster with Jews and Cypriots on the MDS plot are all from unidenitified provenances. But given the fact that none of the identified North Italians and Tuscans cluster with Jews and Cypriots on the MDS plot, all of the unidentified Italians on the MDS plot are probably South Italians. This is in line with previous genetic research indicating close genetic relationship between South Italians and East Mediterranean populations and also in line with history. But I am not saying all South Italians should cluster with East Mediterraneans on MDS plots, they have variety in their East Mediterranean genetic affinities.<br /><br />As to Sardinians, given the fact that they are closest to Tuscans on the MDS plot, they are probably a population with predominantly Central Italian origins that later genetically diverged from all other populations due to long isolation and drifts, so they in no way represent Italianness.<br /><br /><i>I wished if you did include south Indians too</i><br /><br />If Dienekes included South Indians, the Dravidoid blood (the dark green component at higher Ks in Behar et al.) in Pakistani/Afghanistani populations and Iranians (probably also in Central Asian Turkics) would be clear.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-1484850140832750162010-10-23T15:04:44.741+03:002010-10-23T15:04:44.741+03:00Thanks a lot for these your very very interesting ...Thanks a lot for these your very very interesting works and studies.<br /><br />I wished if you did include south Indians too ,since the color of the Caucasoid component amongst south Indian Indo-Aryans, could give us an idea about the "indo-european" component ie is it light blue CS Asian=>out of India hypothesis? or is it orange one?=>Anatolian hypothesis) <br /><br />I think we can eliminate the European purple component since as mr Ponto noted , north Europe was very poorly inhabitated by 10 k years ago ie the age of emergence of proto indo-hittite (wich besides that did have words for agriculture and animal husbandry as well as metallurgy, chariots and honey bees wich contradicts with a north European homeland)ashrafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590059778590185827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70968807480544266332010-10-23T13:39:09.246+03:002010-10-23T13:39:09.246+03:00There are not significance and validity around the...There are not significance and validity around the samples in the plot. I mailed Dra. Behar few month ago this year, and she belief like me that Jews populations are more than haplotypes. There are history and culture evolving these Jews people that are not a race but a approaching human being to Judaism in the Galut way. How could you explain that Polish Jews bring inside more African componets -for example L2 mtDNA markers and others - than Sephardim? Here is not displaying.<br />See, Table 2. Haplogroup distribution in non-Jewish local populations and Jews<br />From: Ashkenazi Jewish mtDNA haplogroup distribution varies among distinct subpopulations: lessons of population substructure in a closed group<br />Jeanette Feder, Ofer Ovadia, Benjamin Glaser and Dan Mishmar<br />See: When in other papers like this too, for example, Polish Jews mtDNA L1,L2 close to 4% Polish non Jews are 0% ; also see tables about mtDNA "L2" and "N1" - "G" ME and EA variant - or "M" markers in Behar et al. papers.<br /><br />Ashkenazim likely have between 4% to 27 % East African -mainly- and in minor South Saharan source markers, even Y and mtDNA signals like a genetic landscape of ME of ancient times, these markers were acquired since the first Temple VI BC destruction until the II century A.E. –Bar Kochba period in Roman Judea- as well in the Muslim invaders take place at VII AE in the Alexandria Egypt Jewish Center mainly too. The ”L1” and "L2" mtDNA marker is present in the two populations – Ashkenazim and African Ethiopian Jews - also the derived and sibling mtDNA Hg "M" and "N1" – G nucleotide variant from M.East. or E. Africa.- from "L3", as well as the Y markers Hg E3b and 4s too, all of this from East Africa at more ancient times –Solomon period- and so. (Also is watching in autosomal markers in few minor as well).<br />They belong respectively at one of the three nucleous or center Jewish ancient populations, that evolving the called "Syrian-European nucleous" (Hellenistic and Roman times-of profuse and lavish proselytism with genetic inlays-).<br /><br />The Ashkenazim also have likely between 35% to 55% Europeans components, a half from South Europe acquired in ancient times, while the named “Hellenistic Proselytism” in Greek, Anatolia and Rome including Women and Men, The other half was shared and inlaying with East Europe and host populations along the Galut or Diaspora life. This other middle part was mainly from converted women and it could be see in the mtDNA almost exclusivist.<br />The Ashkenazim also have likely between 20% to 35% of West Asia markers that represents the time when Ashkenazim were living in East Europe and the contact with Turkish Jews Khazars and the inbred into religious restrictions in Middle Ages, and Modern Era, that was the norm, modifying the profile patterns from a “Coptic” - “European Syrian” Jewish ancient mix returning in part to a more South East European Syrian like. <br /> The Ashkenazim also are Jews People, with M.E. markers more than 65% of the “Y”, mtDNA, and Autosomal markers as well, in shaken Lands of ancient Israel and Judea with all the haplotypes coming from the three Continents around and also with the believe -like all Jews- about the return to your promise Land. They are too like others ancient Jews population, a group 100% of Jewish tradition, but not ancient more beyond 1200 years.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85696252775042549912010-10-23T04:58:01.823+03:002010-10-23T04:58:01.823+03:00The cone of silence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...The cone of silence:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1eUIK9CihAMarniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63505980025650567212010-10-23T03:21:01.456+03:002010-10-23T03:21:01.456+03:00"There are many autosomal sutdies in which Sp..."There are many autosomal sutdies in which Spaniards do not show more African admizture than other southern europeans. For example in the study of Behar et al. Spanairds do not have more SS African than other south-europeans. Anyways, Spaniards cluster with Western Europeans (French, North Italians,etc) while Southern Italians and Greeks are closer to Jews, Cypriots and Levantines"<br /><br /><br />Spaniards sligthly touch french in some maps, but they don't cluster with any north europeans at all.<br />The most little distance with french was with north italians at 0.05<br />Moreover in some 23andme results the spaniards show both north african and levantine much more than other s.Europeans.<br />I think that if there was a map with separated regions of Spain we would have some surprises, and not always good for spaniards.Bobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615718074381134949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-34177664971202914542010-10-23T03:09:12.390+03:002010-10-23T03:09:12.390+03:00"You can look at the plot that "Structur..."You can look at the plot that "Structure" posted the link for, which clearly illustrates the close relationship between Tuscans, Jews and Cypriots. Sardinians are clearly outside the cluster."<br /><br />Are you blind, biased or what Marnie?<br />I post you again the link of that Structure guy:<br />http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3074/eumescalabeled.jpg<br /><br /><br />Where the hell do you see tuscans cluster with Jews and Cypriots?<br />They are almost as distant as sardinians are and they are in the north italian plot.<br />TUSCANS is write Tuscans not ITA3 or ITA4...<br />You better start to learn at least the definitions.<br /><br />I start to think that Ponto is right with you.<br />You are so biased that you can't never read or interpret well.alfiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10933271829812947439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83796417609359204932010-10-23T00:50:51.006+03:002010-10-23T00:50:51.006+03:00The whole point of scientific analysis is that it ...The whole point of scientific analysis is that it finally gets to the truth. If we want to eradicate "racism" from our discussions, the way to do it is to keep discussing. If you disagree with someone,say it and argue your corner. If your argument is flawed then others will point it out and give reasons.<br />So stop bleating and start arguing. As we say in this corner of North Europe "facts are chiels that winna ding!"Grendalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02207349599903280867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84700716788200253182010-10-22T22:02:59.123+03:002010-10-22T22:02:59.123+03:00Get the series matrix files in the first link you ...Get the series matrix files in the first link you sent me.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29585957645956560952010-10-22T21:50:19.237+03:002010-10-22T21:50:19.237+03:00Which ones did you download?
TXT
Thanks. Could y...<i>Which ones did you download?<br /><br />TXT</i><br /><br />Thanks. Could you tell me which one of the TXT files you downloaded? I'm presuming you downloaded it from here:<br /><br /><a href="ftp://ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/pub/geo/DATA/supplementary/series/GSE21478/" rel="nofollow">ftp://ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/pub/geo/DATA/supplementary/series/GSE21478/</a>aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-35095762848036518442010-10-22T20:57:33.280+03:002010-10-22T20:57:33.280+03:00There are many autosomal sutdies in which Spaniard...There are many autosomal sutdies in which Spaniards do not show more African admizture than other southern europeans. For example in the study of Behar et al. Spanairds do not have more SS African than other south-europeans. Anyways, Spaniards cluster with Western Europeans (French, North Italians,etc) while Southern Italians and Greeks are closer to Jews, Cypriots and Levantinestruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08622344688109770244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49014743547584977262010-10-22T19:22:18.657+03:002010-10-22T19:22:18.657+03:00In fact, I wouldn't include Sardinians and Bas...<i>In fact, I wouldn't include Sardinians and Basques in a worldwide genetic analysis (like this one), as they distort the results because of these reasons.</i><br /><br />They distort the results by causing other Europeans (=proper Europeans) to appear genetically less European than they really are.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89868279639844120762010-10-22T18:12:18.331+03:002010-10-22T18:12:18.331+03:00"I often wonder why people always choose the ..."I often wonder why people always choose the Northern Europeans as some sort of exemplar of being European. Who appointed them in that role, and what is their proof of being made the exemplar of European."<br /><br />The old school race scientists and the Nazis did this.<br /><br />The basic idea relies on the idea that the "pure" European is very light skinned, fair haired and fair eyed and that dark hair or dark eyecolor in Europeans must be the result of non-European admixture.<br /><br />This led to the idea that southern Europeans are admixed with middle easterners and Africans, while northern Europeans remained "pure". With the idea that Scandinacia must harbour the purest Europeans of all.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64404934138317695272010-10-22T16:49:54.759+03:002010-10-22T16:49:54.759+03:00It would be better to label the Sardinians as Euro...<i>It would be better to label the Sardinians as European as they are the only ones in Europe who appear to be of autochthonous European origins.</i><br /><br />Sardinians and also Basques are by no means representatives of Europeanness as they are pretty much drifted and homogenized populations (because of long isolation). In fact, I wouldn't include Sardinians and Basques in a worldwide genetic analysis (like this one), as they distort the results because of these reasons.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-91246972955173380082010-10-22T16:24:41.474+03:002010-10-22T16:24:41.474+03:00The "Sardinian" component is reflective ...The "Sardinian" component is reflective of something "much broader."<br /><br />Yeah. So broad that it's interesting to look at who *doesn't* have it, especially in areas that are adjacent to populations who do.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-83184226074276691292010-10-22T16:00:07.633+03:002010-10-22T16:00:07.633+03:00Ponto:
"I often wonder why people always cho...Ponto:<br /><br />"I often wonder why people always choose the Northern Europeans as some sort of exemplar of being European."<br /><br />Please work out your issues with this somewhere else, rather than randomly targeting me.<br /><br />My efforts in putting up those tables where to try to organize the data in a more readable and interpretable format. In the above cases, east to west (Danube), north to south (Middle East), east to west (Middle East) and east to west (Mediterranean). Unfortunately, Blogger doesn't allow for graphing. <br /><br />You can look at the plot that "Structure" posted the link for, which clearly illustrates the close relationship between Tuscans, Jews and Cypriots. Sardinians are clearly outside the cluster.<br /><br />BTW, I don't regard the Mediterranean as being *not* European, so please find someone else on whom to work out your issues.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-82677299629789656192010-10-22T14:50:28.977+03:002010-10-22T14:50:28.977+03:00Dieneke, why did you remove Orcadians? Are they ge...Dieneke, why did you remove Orcadians? Are they genetically marginal for NW Europe and thus not representative of there? <br /><br />I think inclusion of the South Indians of Behar et al. and the Khmer of HGDP-CEPH would greatly contribute to the general results.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65964508985019837222010-10-22T14:27:39.220+03:002010-10-22T14:27:39.220+03:00Racism exists in lots of forms, some most people d...Racism exists in lots of forms, some most people don't even think of as racism.<br /><br />I often wonder why people always choose the Northern Europeans as some sort of exemplar of being European. Who appointed them in that role, and what is their proof of being made the exemplar of European. Most of North Europe only became habitable in the Holocene, 10,000 years ago after being under some tonnes of ice. That means all the people in Northern Europe, most of Britain, Ireland are descended from people who entered those parts 10,000 or less years ago. Southern Europe has been inhabited continuous for 40,000 years. Now the question is, where the hell did those "Europeans" come from? Obviously not from Europe. It would be better to label the Sardinians as European as they are the only ones in Europe who appear to be of autochthonous European origins.<br /><br />Yes I call that racism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28715384807756345832010-10-22T14:17:01.512+03:002010-10-22T14:17:01.512+03:00I think it would be interesting to compare the var...I think it would be interesting to compare the various European populations, especially to see the Nordic/Alpine splits (i.e. northern vs. southern German, the various strands of the French, the composition of the Irish, etc.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-41520337636561377072010-10-22T11:46:24.687+03:002010-10-22T11:46:24.687+03:00Which ones did you download?
TXT<i>Which ones did you download?</i> <br /><br />TXTDienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90884029400154785062010-10-22T08:20:23.454+03:002010-10-22T08:20:23.454+03:00Ashkenazim likely have between 4% to 27 % or more ...Ashkenazim likely have between 4% to 27 % or more East African -mainly- and in minor South Saharan source markers, even Y and mDNA signals like a genetic landscape of ME of ancient times. The ”L1” and "L2" mtDNA marker is present in the two populations – Ashkenazim and African Ethiopian Jews - also the derived and sibling mtDNA Hg "M" and "N1" from "L3", as well as the Y markers Hg E3b and 4s too, all of this from East Africa and so. (Also is watching in autosomal markers in minor as well) They belong respectively at one of the three nucleous or center jewish ancient populations, that evolving the called "Syrian-European nucleous"(helenistic and Roman times-of profusus and lavish proselitism with genetic inlays-).<br />The oldest center –Ethiopians likely belong these- were that developed in Napata and Elephantine (Kush) and whose nucleous or center was after Alexandria, and I called "Coptic Nucleous" derived in two bias, and split forwards the North via Europe -intermixed with the Syrian Europe nucleous- or the South, via Nile and the Horn Of Africa.<br />The "Babilonian and Persian nucleous" is other of the above three mentioned centers and included Bukara, Iranian and Iraki mainly. <br />All of this Nucleus take Judaea and Israel like a axis or pendulum.<br />Another fourth Nucleous or center I call "East Europe" -not mainly conected with ME-, is not ancient like the three others and was the Jewish Khazar Empire stiring into Askenazy current population and others. All of this events were naturaly intrajewish asimilations in all jews current populations. <br />The Ashkenazim hyperhaploydia and heterozygosis that could cluster these Ashkenazim populations everywhere you want (not common in isolated population, the same for mtDNA coming in great rate from host population) is explained by the superposition and overlay of diverse fount or source population , that are all of this of Jewish origin (that consider converted into intraJewish assimilations) , one coming from the “Syrian European nucleous” – that Sephardic as well as preAshenazim bring inside -. The other convergence were the “Coptic Jewish nucleous”, coming from Alexandria, the main and largest Judaic center in ancient times – the buried and graves in Jewish graveyards and catacombs of Tuscan, and Alsace as too Rhineland cities take a lot of Egyptian ornaments and display figures from these, as well as Y and mtDNA markers - . The great Jews migration from Egypt beginning after the Muslim invaders from Arabia in the VII AE century. The “Babylonian and Persian nucleous” take place and contacts newly with and when the “preAshenazim second fase” were migrating to the East Europe. A remarkable contact was with the fourth “East Europe Jews nucleous”-not related or little related with ME-, with the descendant of the Jews Khazarians ones, spreading every where and carrying a lot of East Europe and Eurasian markers. That happen between the XI and XII century AE. Note that population events like bottleneck, loosing and losing markers, marriage with local women at the first jews setting community and others comparative few or not, carring from M.E.<br />Remember also that Ethiopian Jews and non Jews are closely between them and are related in a whole to Middle Eastern by languages, traditions and genes associated too with the Horn of Africa. It is the difference between Hindu people – without these close relations with ME- and Ethiopians in Whole as well. <br />See, Table 2. Haplogroup distribution in non-Jewish local populations and Jews<br />From: Ashkenazi Jewish mtDNA haplogroup distribution varies among distinct subpopulations: lessons of population substructure in a closed group<br />Jeanette Feder, Ofer Ovadia, Benjamin Glaser and Dan Mishmar<br />See: when in other papers like this too, for example, Polish Jews mtDNA L1,L2 close to 4% Polish non Jews are 0% ; also see tables about mtDNA "L2" and "N1" - "G" ME and EA variant - or "M" markers in Behar et al. papers.horaciohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177107320272273468noreply@blogger.com