tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1223444349973313089..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: R1b founder effect in Central and Western EuropeDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-28331603130779069732013-06-26T14:24:01.779+03:002013-06-26T14:24:01.779+03:00Hi I am from Bulgaria originally. Stranja mountain...Hi I am from Bulgaria originally. Stranja mountain on the border of what is Turkey now. Sheep farming is in my blood. I just done my y tests with ftdna and is m269. I also come across new 2013 research from Italians and Bulgarians showing East Bulgaria and 18% of the Bulgarians with R1b ( 5% m269 and rest m23). Standja mountain was not affected by the last ice age. On my genetic exact matches shows exact match with people from Ireland, Scotland, England and Germany. The region was populated by Thracians tribes. Interestingly region was called also Mala Skitia which sound a lot like Scotia. Mala Skitia means the small Skitia the big Skitia is the Caucasian region and namely the land of the proto Bulgarians. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04476729656059391088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57294031521972903022012-04-01T09:29:01.167+03:002012-04-01T09:29:01.167+03:00Does anyone know the breakdown of Greek & Turk...Does anyone know the breakdown of Greek & Turkish R1b sub-haplogroups ?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-64233542811925086292010-09-10T02:27:07.272+03:002010-09-10T02:27:07.272+03:00What is this, marnie's starting to use some te...What is this, marnie's starting to use some technical language.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11996131458411224722010-09-06T16:55:35.628+03:002010-09-06T16:55:35.628+03:00@McG:
"What did the teutons speak. I read tha...@McG:<br />"What did the teutons speak. I read that their language died out?"<br /><br />Its not exactly known what they spoke.<br /><br />But by the way the Romans wrote the names of Teutons and Cimbri, these tribes languages did not yet have passed the first Germanic soundshift. (the Romans name them "cimbri teutonique". But they SHOULD have been "chimbri theudonique" if they already passed the soundshift.<br /><br />This means, they did not even speak "Proto-Germanic" but "Pre-Germanic" (I read in english the correct name is "Germanic Parent Language")<br />The estamination when "Germanic Parent Language" came to live is at 2000BC-1500BC<br /><br />It is usualy estaminated that "Germanic Parent Language" turned to "Proto-Germanic" somewhere between 500BC and 1ADFantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-36354143508519610882010-09-03T10:08:20.572+03:002010-09-03T10:08:20.572+03:00Perhaps, for the most part, Europeans are "Ca...Perhaps, for the most part, Europeans are "Caucasians" after all.<br /><br />Looking at the R-M269 and R-M269(xL23) maps, as well as aargiedudes data over on Maju's sight, it's hard to miss the association with pastoralism. Importantly, Myres notes that the R-M269 expansion appears to be at the beginning of the Holocene, just as the LGM ice was melting.<br /><br />R-M269 shines out in the British Isles and in parts of France where there is a tradition of shepherding: Provence and Rhone-Alpes. It is only a bit less frequent in Basque territory. <br /><br />There is a notable blip of intensity in the Southern Caucasus, another area with a strong pastoral tradition.<br /><br />Recent linguistic evidence indicates that the Basque language may originate in the Caucasus.<br /><br />Looking at L23(xM412), it's presence in Switzerland is notable. The authors describe a sample in Switzerland's Upper Rhone Valley which showed a frequency of 27%.<br /><br />"After the end of the last Ice Age, Epipalaeolithic and Mesolithic hunters colonised the Rhone Valley by two different routes: over the high mountain passes in eastern Valais (connecting northern Italy) and by the Lower Rhone Valley in the west (connecting Lake Geneva). Early Neolithic culture spread to Valais over mountain passes linking the Alps with the Po Valley, possibly by grazing small herds in high pastures in summer. " Reference: Prehistoric settlement in the middle and high altitudes in the Upper Rhone Valley (Valais-Vaud, Switzerland): A summary of twenty years of research, Philippe Curdy.<br /><br />aargiedude, looking at your M269 data, I see frequencies upward of 5% in Cyprus and Albania and > 2% throughout the Balkans. More shepherds!<br /><br />L23(xM412) reaches it's greatest intensity in the southern Caucasus and overlaps the M269 South Caucasus island.<br /><br />Myers et al. note that the expansion of M269 + L23(xM412) was followed by an expansion of an M412 agriculturalist LBK expansion:<br /><br />" The coalescent estimate for the Y-STR network tree of 245 M269*+L23(xM412) chromosomes is 10 270±1680 years Before Present (BP). This estimate approximates the median TMRCA dates (8.5–12.5k years) of M269 clade across Europe based on alternative demographic inference methodology. 33 Our estimate of 8870±1708 years BP, based on 757 M412 chromo- somes, suggests that the M412 lineage evolved in Europe soon after the arrival of a L23* ancestor."<br /><br />This suggests that a pastoralist expansion paved the way for the LBK agriculturalists who not long afterward, followed them into Western Europe. <br /><br />It's my belief, based on the survival of M269 and L23(xM412), that the agriculturalists and pastoralists coexisted. They simply carved out different niches. <br /><br />The rapid expansion of M412 into Western Europe also suggests that M269 led the way for M412.<br /><br />All in all, the picture is of an expansion of M269 and L23(xM412) pastoralists at the end of the LGM, from the Caucasus into the eastern Europe, followed by a second wave of expansion of M412 agriculturalists from the Balkans westward, traveling up the Danube.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60864483455584179302010-09-02T20:01:48.138+03:002010-09-02T20:01:48.138+03:00Dienekes, your comment:
"It is interesting t...Dienekes, your comment:<br /><br />"It is interesting to see where R-M269(xL23) is concentrated. In Europe I see cases in Germany, Switzerland, Slovenia, Poland, Hungary, Russia, the Ukraine."<br /><br />Yes, and Western Europe, especially Scotland and Ireland.<br /><br />How about that R-M269?<br /><br />My comment from January:<br /><br />"To my mind, the most likely candidate for a group that would have been motivated and able to move into a marginal climate, such as icy Northern Europe and the British Isles, would have been shepherds."<br /><br />"I'm just wondering why people keep talking about farmers, rather than perhaps, a transhumant people who both farmed and shepherded in order to subsist."<br /><br />"That lifestyle would account for greater mobility than families of farmers gradually, through population growth, diffusing northward."<br /><br />"Many European transhumant groups today seem to share some characteristics such as cheese making, to supply food for the winter and stone house built for overwintering."<br /><br />"I've read that sheep were first domesticated about in about 10,000 years BC in Southwest Asia."<br /><br />Strange that Scotland and Ireland were not more heavily sampled in this paper. Perhaps another paper on the way for an early M269 pastoral migration across Europe?Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-25749261388599225142010-09-02T17:38:59.477+03:002010-09-02T17:38:59.477+03:00This may facilitate the discussions on language is...This may facilitate the discussions on language issues.<br /><br />https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/noonan/www/Celtic%20lecture.IE.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-45998592525560048522010-09-02T15:07:36.181+03:002010-09-02T15:07:36.181+03:00Conroy: we are not communicating. I'm talkin...Conroy: we are not communicating. I'm talking about the Belgic tribes migration to Britain after their subjugation by the Romans in Gaul c. 50 BC. I believe they migrated to several places probably including southern Ireland. I'm doing all this by matching haplotypes, not historical records or linguistics which I find to be of dubious use? I am trying to plot the path of the tribe called the Scottis by Romans c. 360 AD. I see very little record of them in Scotland before 100 to 300 AD. I think they migrated to Antrim from southern Ireland due to famine? I hope to be able to show similar haplotypes to R-L21, but not M-222.McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67141751516289936482010-09-02T09:24:31.672+03:002010-09-02T09:24:31.672+03:00Wish they would nt keep changing the coding. Ijus...Wish they would nt keep changing the coding. Ijust got used to R1b1b2... Its all very Euro-centric.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4493356915098615862010-09-02T08:04:59.685+03:002010-09-02T08:04:59.685+03:00So, as I see it:
R1b* (M415) starts a westward mi...So, as I see it:<br /><br />R1b* (M415) starts a westward migration from somewhere east of Europe.<br /><br />It splits at the mediterranean with R1b1* travelling north of the mediterranean and R1b2* (V88)travelling south of the mediterranean into north Africa.<br /><br />R1b1b1a1* (L11) splits again at the Alps, with R1b1b1a1a* (U106) travelling north of the alps into Europe. R1b1b1a1b* (S116) travels south of the Alps into Europe, and hairpins back into Italy. <br /><br />The southern European migration of R1b1b1a1b* (S116) splits again into inland R1b1b1a1b1*(U152) which travels to the Atlantic via France, and maritime R1b1b1a1b2*(M529) which travels around the coast to Ireland. <br /><br />We really, really need the data from North Africa to complete the picture. Why is this data always missing?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000684388615334278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10874554839570284632010-09-02T04:04:18.612+03:002010-09-02T04:04:18.612+03:00Marnie,
Only my first paragraph was a direct resp...Marnie,<br /><br />Only my first paragraph was a direct response to you - the remainder was a more general comment with regard to the thread. And I totally agree with your assessment as early bronze age for proto-Celtic and proto-Italic and their first spread. <br /><br />Perhaps I came off a bit negative because I see so many posts and web sites with ridiculous claims and time scales that make zero sense - for example, proto-Celtic developing in the iron age, or origin of Balto-Slavic at around 500AD. With regard to the latter, people have to understand that the various Baltic languages are incomprehensible to each other, and about as far apart from each other as to Slavic. In Germanic languages, for comparison, it took about ~2,000 to 2,500 years for them to drift apart to that extent. Even today, any Austrian (with a bit of training on how to pronounce idiosyncratically spelled letter combinations) can read and understand much Dutch. <br /> <br /><br />@waggG:<br /><br /><i>On the contrary, there is a well-known link between Germanic and Slavic.</i><br /><br />If you read my comment more carefully, my statement was a bit more subtle and distinguishes between the lack of relation between their respective proto-languages and that of the modern languages, and it also relativates this relation. <br /><br />Proto-Germanic will have had first extended contact with the Finnish-speaking new-comers to the Baltic, and only later with the Baltic language, and then only in the past 1,500 years with Slavic. <br /><br />In other words, given the past 1,500 years of closeness between German(ic) and Slavic populations, and perhaps 1,000 years of Germanic and Balto-Slavic before, it is almost astonishing that they don't form more of a Sprachbund (compared to the Balkans or Iberia/France/Italy, for example).<br /><br />The most straightforward explanation is that proto-Germanic formed before any first contact (see above) in a large, quite homogeneous area, while the Baltic and Slavic languages were initially isolates and only spread much later into more northern and western regions.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87877891712686379182010-09-02T01:24:04.389+03:002010-09-02T01:24:04.389+03:00Oh. That would make English a language with a Bal...Oh. That would make English a language with a Balto-Slavic substrate and a double Celtic superstrate. Hold the mayo.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-44022273207627074432010-09-01T20:22:19.604+03:002010-09-01T20:22:19.604+03:00Wagg,
Balto-Slavic languages were spoken as far W...Wagg,<br /><br />Balto-Slavic languages were spoken as far West as Hamburg and Bremen - maybe not in Holland itself.<br /><br />The German word for themselves Deutsch, derived from teuta/tuath a Celtic word meaning "people" or "the People"<br /><br />Germanic has a Balto-Slavic substrate and a Celtic superstrate.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72947202816686091352010-09-01T20:17:36.772+03:002010-09-01T20:17:36.772+03:00McGregor,
The Romans weren't defeated in Brita...McGregor,<br />The Romans weren't defeated in Britain??!! They recalled their legions to defend other areas of the empire, and so they abandoned Britain and left it defenseless.<br /><br />As regards Q-Celtic being spoken in Wales: Deisi tribes from Ireland carved out colonies in Wales during this period, and they were Q-Celtic speaking.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60865633857335537182010-09-01T13:23:27.281+03:002010-09-01T13:23:27.281+03:00Conroy: These are moot points, what we need are m...Conroy: These are moot points, what we need are more facts/data. re: "there is no evidence of mass migration to England after the romans left". There is evidence of migration, after their defeat, to south western england from the lowlands where the map shows the presence of Atrebates and Belgic Tribes. re: language, I am no linguist, but Rhys in his book(s) that two pockets of q celtic were spoken in Wales, close to where the tribes are indicated to be or were in Agricolas time. The languages spoken by the German tribes needs to be better understood. What did the teutons speak. I read that their language died out?McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-90083644750726412492010-09-01T13:15:18.461+03:002010-09-01T13:15:18.461+03:00eurologist :
"proto-Germanic and proto-Slav...<b>eurologist</b> : <br /><br /><i>"proto-Germanic and proto-Slavic have almost no relation, but there are the expected proto-Germanic" - "there is so little overlap between Germanic and Slavic that it is clear that their populations shared little common boarder and had little, if any, interaction until recently"</i><br /><br />On the contrary, there is a well-known link between Germanic and Slavic. It is pretty visible in the vocabulary and a few declination suffixes (at least one anyway IIRC, plural dative if I'm not mistaken) also support it. <br /><br /><i>"For example, dan-ou or don-au (Ger.) are both the valley of the river "Don" - the latter being a pan-European (IE?) word for river (from the big one in Russia to 4 instances in England). "</i> <br /><br />I-E, I'd say. I've read that Don, Donets, dniepr, Dniester probably came from an Indo-iranian word for river "danu" (read in a Mallory book and here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)#History), whose tracks are found up to south Siberia (where tracks of "Scythian" settlements exists)<br /><br /><b>pconroy</b> : <br /><br /><i>"much more likely is that Balto-Slavic was spoken along the North European plain, from Belarus to the Netherlands, later when the Celts pushed North into the Netherlands and Northern Germany, they mixture of languages produced a creole called Germanic" </i><br /><br />I wonder why you would think such thing. Baltic was indeed much more widespread in the past than today (toponymy reveals it almost went up to Moscow) - as for Slavic it's not that clear - but why would you think it went as west as the Netherlands?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88431618609866179922010-08-31T20:36:18.864+03:002010-08-31T20:36:18.864+03:00From Wiki, Starcevo culture:
"The Starcevo c...From Wiki, Starcevo culture:<br /><br />"The Starcevo culture was a widespread early Neolithic archaeological culture from Eastern Europe and the Balkans. It dates to between seventh and fifth millenia BC."<br /><br />"Starcevo is a site located on the north bank of the Danube in Vojvodina; opposite Belgrade in Serbia."<br /><br />"Parallel and closely related cultures also include the Karanovo culture in Bulgaria, Cris in Romania and pre-Sesklo in Greece."Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-69095156675212845722010-08-31T20:18:31.412+03:002010-08-31T20:18:31.412+03:00In the abstract, the authors are associating M412 ...In the abstract, the authors are associating M412 and by inference, its sublineages, U106 and S116, with the Linearbandkeramik culture.<br /><br />from http://archaeology.about.com/od/lterms/qt/lbk.htm:<br /><br />"The earliest LBK sites are found in the Starcevo-Koros culture of the Hungarian plain, around 5700 BC. From there, the early LBK spreads separately east, north and west." <br /><br />"The LBK reached the Rhine and Neckar valleys of Germany about 5500 BC. The people spread into Alsace and the Rhineland by 5300 BC. By the mid-5th millenium BC, La Hoguette Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and LBK immigrants shared the region and, eventually, only LBK were left."Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67112146294614450192010-08-31T19:56:08.402+03:002010-08-31T19:56:08.402+03:00McGregor,
As I've said on other fora and mayb...McGregor,<br /><br />As I've said on other fora and maybe here before, I think the Belgae spoke a West Germanic language, and settled in Southern Britain and were the founding English population - ther is no evidence of mass migration to England after the Romans left, all the evidence points to the Belgae as bringing Germanic language to Britain. The Belgae were from the Litus Saxonicum (Saxon shore) of today's Belgium and Holland. Saxon in tis case being a generic name applied to sea rovers/piates, like Viking was used later.<br /><br />Belgae also settled in South Western Ireland, and an unknown Germanic language called Yola was spoken there up till the mid 1700's.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88244789774865995912010-08-31T19:12:06.785+03:002010-08-31T19:12:06.785+03:00This young subhaplogroup appears to be rather rare...This young subhaplogroup appears to be rather rare in mainland Scandinavia. I find it quite unlikely that this haplogroup be associated with Germanic languages although perhaps it may be associated with the west Germanic languages.Nevertheless if we ever want to really know we need to study the ancient bones which always seem to prove something contrary to what the present data seems to show.Peter Princetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14229040947005466139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-26405443848642008662010-08-31T19:06:18.582+03:002010-08-31T19:06:18.582+03:00eurologist:
"I find it difficult to associat...eurologist:<br /><br />"I find it difficult to associate haplogroups with relatively recent cultures - let alone languages."<br /><br />I'm not associating haplogroups with relatively recent cultures. From linguistics, the age estimates for Proto Italo-Celtic are early Bronze Age. S116 looks to me to be a marker for a Bronze Age Proto Italo-Celtic migration westward from the Danube, with the Proto Italic speakers heading into Italy, perhaps by way of the Drava River, and the Proto Celts by way of the upper Danube. This would concur with the earliest appearance of Bronze age copper axes in Ireland.<br /><br />"Just as an example, the finds from the ~3,000 year old central-German Lichtenstein cave include I(2b2, M170), R1b(U106), and R1a"<br /><br />You have your answer right there. In the R1b phylogeny, U106 and S116 split early, perhaps even before the Bronze Age. U106 continues up the Danube to its headwaters, Innsbruck and Bodensee for example, and settles down. Notably, the Proto Italo-Celtic "dun" namings for fortified settlements disappear traveling from Hungary to Austria. <br /><br />S116 does show up in Germany, but mostly at its extreme south western edge, as if S116 also travelled to the head waters of the Danube, but then pushed on through to the headwaters of the Rhine, near Strasbourg.<br /><br />"As to the languages spoken east of the Rhine and in the upper/middle Danubian region, my personal opinion is: there is such a strong cultural link to what is now central Germany and northern Germany for several millennia, that most likely people then also spoke a very similar language, given that there are no serious geographic boundaries."<br /><br />Nothing I am saying comes into conflict with Germans speaking German for several millennia.<br /><br />"Probably somewhere around the eastern Alps central European IE developed into proto-italic and proto-celtic - but even in Caesar's times (from what little evidence is left) the language there was not all that close to the celtic of Gaul, let alone the islands."<br /><br />Again, I put the Proto Italo-Celts on the Danube between between Budapest and Belgrade, and perhaps further downriver, into Romania.<br /><br />"It is possible that somewhere in what is now southern Germany and Austria people spoke a dialect that had some proto-Celtic or proto-Italic elements - but I see no reason why they should have spoken a Celtic language."<br /><br />Haven't said anywhere that Germans or Austrians ever spoke a modern Celtic language.<br /><br />It should be noted that both the words "Danube" and "Drava" are believed to be Proto-Celtic in origin.Marniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850856778953207810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-48121894962284026922010-08-31T15:40:27.441+03:002010-08-31T15:40:27.441+03:00Conroy: Mine is the latest hanford edition of wh...Conroy: Mine is the latest hanford edition of what you read. I find Caesar compelling when he is talking about non-war items, using exploratores (spies), describing Druids etc. Remember this was written for the Roman Senate from whom he got his legions and funding.<br /><br />We have very few historical records from a person who personally experienced what he is writing about. So much of early Greek and Roman sources is secondhand.<br /><br />I have been told that the Belgae didn't speak a different language, just a different, at most, dialect of P Celtic. That just doesn't seem to agree with what little data we have.<br /><br />In my genetic studies of scotland I find that the scottish modal never goes further back than,at most, 100 to 300 AD. The displacement of the Gaulic and Belgic tribes occurred in two waves: 1. Caesars conquest of Gaul 2. Agricolas invasion of Britain. I see not reason not to believe that they are the sources of the Picts and Scottis in Scotland?McGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03459589185170647441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-23141223647163146112010-08-31T15:15:09.451+03:002010-08-31T15:15:09.451+03:00Probably somewhere around the eastern Alps central...<i>Probably somewhere around the eastern Alps central European IE developed into proto-italic and proto-celtic</i><br /><br />Sorry, this somehow got garbled up. I see proto-Italic as something almost pan-Alpine (but definitely quite south) in origin, starting with IE people moving south and later interacting with Greek settlements, and proto-Celtic from the very eastern Alpine fringe spreading through most of nowadays France, and then into the isles - all very early and much earlier than dated by illusionist based on some silly believes.<br /><br />In the end, the diaspora paradigm tells us that the Isles preserved ancient Celtic the same way as Scandinavia and Gothic preserved ancient Germanic - because they were located at the fringe.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-15649942266016278382010-08-31T11:36:26.670+03:002010-08-31T11:36:26.670+03:00Balto-Slavic was spoken along the North European p...<i>Balto-Slavic was spoken along the North European plain, from Belarus to the Netherlands, later when the Celts pushed North into the Netherlands and Northern Germany, they mixture of languages produced a creole called Germanic.</i><br /><br />I know of no sources that would substantiate (a) Baltic or Slavic in that region before the much later move of Slavic peoples north and and west (~1,500 years ago) and Baltic people/language into the Baltics, (b) a move of Celts north, nor (c) any evidence that Germanic is some sort of amalgam between Celtic and Slavic. On the contrary: proto-Germanic and proto-Slavic have almost no relation, but there are the expected proto-Germanic loan words in Finnish/Estonian (which was spoken in a wider region before the Baltic people moved north). <br /><br />Yet, Baltic and Slavic are closely related. In fact, there is so little overlap between Germanic and Slavic that it is clear that their populations shared little common boarder and had little, if any, interaction until recently. <br /><br />Germanic was spoken from the Baltic at the minimum west of the Vistula into much of today's Poland and today's Czech republic - between that and the Slavic parts of the Ukraine likely was a buffer zone, with people speaking yet different languages, especially in the south. <br /><br />East Germanic (Gothic) may be an exception: from the little text I have seen so far, I could actually imagine some West Baltic (Prussian) influence.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-40363512413140208372010-08-31T07:03:39.013+03:002010-08-31T07:03:39.013+03:00McGregor,
BTW, Caesars book, which I studied in L...McGregor,<br /><br />BTW, Caesars book, which I studied in Latin class, was called "De Bello Gallico" - The Gallic Wars.<br /><br />At the time Rome controlled Gallia Cisalpina (Gaul on this side of the Alps - roughly Northern Italy) and also Gallia Transalpina (Gaul on the other side of the Alps - roughly Provance), and they wanted to stop the Helvetii, a tribe from Switzerland from moving into Gallia Cisalpina or further West.pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.com