tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post1023207195048131306..comments2024-01-04T04:11:55.717+02:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: mtDNA haplogroup H and the origin of Europeans (Brotherton et al. 2013)Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-65225649962831726862015-10-30T21:24:18.996+02:002015-10-30T21:24:18.996+02:00R1b possibly went down with Doggerland in the meso...R1b possibly went down with Doggerland in the mesolithic?vandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190719114399506126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-39161791451674931562015-10-30T17:36:49.201+02:002015-10-30T17:36:49.201+02:00The Basque, some say, was as far back as paleolith...The Basque, some say, was as far back as paleolithic??? They are said to now have a large % of R1b. The Red Lady of Paviland (male) frome a cave in Wales, was said to be 33,000 years old and had an Mtdna of haplogroup H-definately paleo mama.<br />vandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190719114399506126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-16273045328814636972014-04-09T04:33:19.993+03:002014-04-09T04:33:19.993+03:00Stop mythology of the Basque people: are quite nor...Stop mythology of the Basque people: are quite normal in their haplogroups and genetic, and are the most recent inhabitants of Europe. The only weird thing is basque people in your language: one koine because it was an area with Celtic , Iberian and others influences. Their language is a recent mixture, with influences from latin too.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394020447878579041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49243949955201449962014-04-09T04:24:47.400+03:002014-04-09T04:24:47.400+03:00I think there's an absurd mythology with the p...I think there's an absurd mythology with the people basco: his Y-haplogroup R1b is 85% Indo-European branch of the Southern France and Iberia (the most recent inhabitants of the area), and as for the mother, has no significant feature.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394020447878579041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-4248037199468406952013-05-20T17:24:22.015+03:002013-05-20T17:24:22.015+03:00As for the theory that R1b (M269 and M73) is from ...As for the theory that R1b (M269 and M73) is from the PC steppe and PIE, I think it's possible, but the evidence so far is really not that convincing. <br /><br />The plain facts from ancient DNA so far showed only R1a from the Corded Ware in Germany, over the bronze age Andronovo culture in Siberia to the Tarim basin in western China.<br /><br />But let's look at the indirect evidence.<br /><br />The old mt-DNA of the Bashkirs and near the Altai may be fact, but from mt-DNA you cannot conclude to the y-DNA, as these are seperately transmitted. The male lines may have had a different origin than the female lines. And after all, these people even don't speak IE, so there must have been admixture with incoming Turkic and other groups, which may well have involved more males than females.<br /><br />The different distribution of R1a vs. R1b in China, i.e. that the former seems to have a more diffuse distribution, while the latter seems concentrated along the steppe border, may be a consequence of R1a having arrived first, and the later R1b was halted near the agricultural border.<br /><br />I can't say much about mt-DNA U2e in Scythians, but the apparently West Asian U5a may have come from West Asia into the Scythians?<br /><br />Now for the claim that R1b, at least M269 and M73, seems associated with the earliest branchings of IE, I'd say the evidence is inconclusive. It is associated with Celtic, to a lesser extent with Italic too, but the association with Tocharian is uncertain, and in West Asia it's strongest in the places where IE arrived late: northern and northeastern Anatolia, Armenia and the Caspian coast in northern Iran. In these places we had the Kaskians and the Hurrians and other probably non-IE peoples as the Gelae, Cadusii, Amardi and Tapuri.<br /><br />The main problem however, is the lack of archaeological evidence for a far reaching, cataclysmic Kurgan invasion in Europe. The Corded Ware does have similarities with Yamnaya, but it's a different culture, mostly locally developped. And while there was a Yamnaya invasion in the Balkans, even Mallory admits that the steppe influence west of the Tisza remains elusive. Culturally, but also physically one must add. And even having some steppe people in the Carpathian basin, the problem remains that R1b was already present in the eastern group of the Bell Beakers, and deducing this eastern Bell Beaker group from steppe people in the Carpathian basin is not at all trivial, since, as Heyd wrote, Bell Beaker arrived late in Hungary and it wasn't much recepted at first, only late there arose the syncretistic Pitvaros/Maros culture. So, rather than having come from the Carpathian basin and the Vucedol culture, it was the other way round, Bell Beaker migrated there. And as Desideri proved, the Hungarian Bell Beaker people were clearly intruders from somewhere else, they did not come from Hungary itself.<br /><br />Now, the Baden culture had strong contacts with eastern Anatolia, which even make some immigration likely. It's not unrealistic to assume that this involved R1b males. And some of this may have spread to central Germany to end up in Bell Beaker males there.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-9268770227891460922013-05-15T18:55:46.796+03:002013-05-15T18:55:46.796+03:00wagg:
"I'm pretty sure I've read at ...wagg:<br /><br /><i>"I'm pretty sure I've read at Maju's blog that you were Indian, but maybe I misunderstood something."</i><br /><br />At this point, it seems rather obvious that what you read and demonstrable reality are two very different things. I'd also suggest that, if you believe anything Maju claims, you are an even bigger fool than I thought.<br /><br /><i>"You swept a huge pile of evidences under the carpet with a simple childish 'They're all biased!'."</i><br /><br />This is another straw man. Apparently, you just can't help yourself.<br /><br /><i>"And this time you're at it again: All the big stack of data shrugged off with a mere 'you racist bigot!'."</i><br /><br />And this is obviously just more projection. I actually hesitated to call you a "<em>racist</em> bigot" but I see that was probably an error on my part.<br /><br /><i>"Now I am really through with this parody of a 'discussion'."</i><br /><br />Good for you!Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-24370833268150078422013-05-15T14:32:27.135+03:002013-05-15T14:32:27.135+03:00@VA_Hgihlander:
"So my ethnicity is importa...@VA_Hgihlander: <br /><br /><i>"So my ethnicity is important to you and relevant to this discussion, is it? Well, at least I understand your motivation and looks like <b>it was something nasty all along</b>. "</i><br /><br />Enough with your excuses. You've been using foul play all along... <br />You swept a huge pile of evidences under the carpet with a simple childish "They're all biased!". <br />And this time you're at it again: All the big stack of data shrugged off with a mere "you racist bigot!". How simple. <br />You clearly have no lessons to give to anyone. <br /><br /><br /><i>"So my ethnicity is important to you and relevant to this discussion, is it?"</i> <br /><br />It would have had the merit of explaining your _otherwise difficult to explain_ stubborness to not take into account the multi-domain data, at least. <br />You certainly spent a lot of time claiming ethnicity was important in the value of the work of the quite numerous and diverse scientists I mentionned, as apparently your main problem with them was their nationality (their nationalistic "biases")... <br /><br />I'm pretty sure I've read at Maju's blog that you were Indian, but maybe I misunderstood something. Whatever. <br /><br /><br /><i>"we shall all enjoy seeing you make an even bigger, bigoted fool of yourself than you have already"</i><br /><br />If this is so, I'm afraid we both share this image, given your irrational (and unexplainable: no, "they're ALL biased! Period!" is not enough) stubborness in the face of diverse multi-domain scientific data. <br /><br /><br />Now I am really through with this parody of a "discussion".wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-8625834980827117402013-05-14T23:43:48.908+03:002013-05-14T23:43:48.908+03:00"My mother's forbears were primarily Engl...<i>"My mother's forbears were primarily English, aside from the odd German here and there, and most of her ancestral lines were established on this continent about four-and-a-half-centuries ago."</i><br /><br />Better make that three-and-a-half centuries, and with apologies.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-53543132004609213862013-05-14T23:25:28.813+03:002013-05-14T23:25:28.813+03:00wagg:
"These scientists would ALL be driven ...wagg:<br /><br /><i>"These scientists would ALL be driven and/or blinded by nationalism... And this coming from an Indian man (As iI recall from comments from Maju's blog) who (like apparently a majority of his fellow countrymen) seems to exude a fiery nationalism everytime a theory about IE and PIE doesn't point towards India and south Asia..."</i><br /><br />So my ethnicity is important to you and relevant to this discussion, is it? Well, at least I understand your motivation and looks like it was something nasty all along.<br /><br />I was born in the US, in the highlands of the Commonwealth of Virginia -- abbreviated "Va" and hence my screen name. My father is one quarter Irish and the rest an exclusively European mix fairly typical for this region. My mother's forbears were primarily English, aside from the odd German here and there, and most of her ancestral lines were established on this continent about four-and-a-half-centuries ago. I provide you with such detail in the sincere hope that your regard for European Americans is even lower than your regard for Hindus and we shall all enjoy seeing you make an even bigger, bigoted fool of yourself than you have already.<br /><br />So much for your genetic fallacy. The rest of your spittle-flaked rant is, I think, a most amusing combination of a straw man, projection, an appeal to authority, and yet another round of you sticking your fingers in your ears and singing the same tune even more loudly than last time. I see now why you're a regular at Maju's propaganda mill. You and he have so much in common, though sadly none of it good.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-54171256556857372882013-05-14T16:17:00.959+03:002013-05-14T16:17:00.959+03:00VA_Highlander:
"When confirmation bias comes...VA_Highlander: <br /><i>"When confirmation bias comes into play, and one has personal, professional, and economic motives for interpreting a material culture a certain way"</i><br /><br />Strange that biases could be only in one direction and that ALL the concerned scientists would be guilty of it. <br /> <br />These scientists would ALL be driven and/or blinded by nationalism... And this coming from an Indian man (As iI recall from comments from Maju's blog) who (like apparently a majority of his fellow countrymen) seems to exude a fiery nationalism everytime a theory about IE and PIE doesn't point towards India and south Asia... <br />Everyone is wrong but you. Fine. <br /><br />Everytime I pointed you to well-rooted data in diverse scientific branches by diverse scientists, your main answer was: "But they're biased!". Cogent counter-argumentation... <br />Oh, they're biased? What do you know about it? What about you? <br /><br />Pontic-related culture and customs? Artefacts Similar to Pontic ones? Ancient and modern north European autosomal data in and around this region? Light pigmentation among them? west Eurasian Haplogroups) with modern matches in Europe? ? Europoid morphology? West eurasian cattle genetics? European dental characteristics in this region (including the Tarim basin)? <br />Everything shrugged off. <br /><br />They ALL bent or invented their results to fit their nationalistic agenda? Ludicrous. <br /><br />No, I don't think there is a worldwide plot by western and Chinese scientists to deny India and/or south Asia of its rightful place at the center of everything. <br /><br />Someone who's trying to sell me that a people, that mainstream multi-domain data situate the origin in Russia (or at least "west"), is actually coming from south Asia against all evidences, will not lecture me on biases and jingoism. <br /><br /><br /><i>"The fact that the former were vertically-transhumant sheep herders, a subsistence strategy without parallel among the Yamna but with clear antecedents in southern Central Asia"</i> <br /><br />Let's see. <br />Proto-Europoid with sheep, cattle and horses on one side... and Proto-Europoid with sheep, cattle and horses on another side. Hmm... I think it works. Especially with similar material culture and an obvious genetic link. <br />Pontic region: not exactly many mountains. Altai-sayan: high mountains. <br />See? I've got an explanation for this Afanasevo way of life. <br /><br /><br /><i>"You have not seen it because you rely exclusively on outdated and deeply partisan sources"</i> <br /><br />There was another post where I said: <i>"the carbon datings of Afanasevo and the Yamnaya horizon are totally concordant"</i> <br /><br />These <i>"outdated and deeply partisan sources"</i> are from recent books from respected authors writing about a mainstream theory (for a reason), something your deeply biased and partisan mind can't accept. And that's fine with me. <br /><br /><br />I think we're through now, otherwise this could last forever.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-12820059478320501912013-05-14T02:00:24.971+03:002013-05-14T02:00:24.971+03:00I think BB must have picked up the R1b in CE. Typi...I think BB must have picked up the R1b in CE. Typical western-central European is R1b-M412. Its close ancestors M269 and L23 are relatively frequent in West Asia and the Balkans, especially in Kosovo, Macedonia and Serbia, where the Vinca culture once flourished. There is also a striking peak of R1b-L23 in the Rhone Valley of Switzerland, i.e. in the middle of CE. On the other hand, in Iberia these ancestral variants are mostly absent. Another line of evidence is the strength of the West_Asian autosomal component, which at least initially must have accompanied the R1b expansion. This component is stronger in France and CE than in either Iberia or Britain. <br /><br />There were mainly two post LBK waves of Near Eastern immigrants in SE Europe. The first one associated with Dimini, Vinca and Lengyel. The second one with Baden, Ezero, Kostolac, Cotofeni and related cultures.<br />Now, I would suggest that the first wave brought the Gedrosia component, the second wave was mostly Caucasus. It's similar in West_Asia itself: The Gedrosia component dominates the eastern periphery of West Asia, as if it were a relic of an earlier expansion. The Gedrosia and early R1b spread with the Lengyel influence in CE. In contemporary SE Europe, the Caucasus component is much stronger than Gedrosia. So I think this (the West_Asian part of the Caucasus component) arrived with the second wave, with Baden etc.<br /><br />The BB expansion from Iberia brought along some cultural as well as some genetic influence. But apparently not the typical brachycephalic skull type commonly associated with BB. Maybe this was picked up together with R1b/Gedrosia in CE.<br /><br />The West_Asian component in Iberia is strongest in the South, where also the production of copper arrived first. In southern Iberia, there is also more of haplogroup J2 than in the North, West and East. Initially the Iberian BB people may well have spread some West_Asian admixture and J2, but generally, the West_Asian admixture in Iberia is low. It didn't spread from there to northwestern Europe.<br /><br />I think, as others have already suggested here, we should not disregard other vectors of cultural influence that spread within the BB context. Granted, there was the main influence stemming from Iberia, but as several authors pointed out, there were also influences from other directions, from northeast and southeast...<br /><br />As for the language and the possibility of the Celticity of BB, I guess this depends a lot on ones general ideas about the PIE homeland and early spread. In any case, apparently there were later, middle Bronze Age upheavals in western Europe, testified by the revival of agriculture in Britain and the main admixture with the North_European component in Iberia. Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-19925565399291330752013-05-13T17:40:15.898+03:002013-05-13T17:40:15.898+03:00wagg:
"That's not the carbon dating date...wagg:<br /><br /><i>"That's not the carbon dating date I've seen, and anyway material culture don't lie. It seems mostly Yamnaya derived and they were anyway culturally and technologically related."</i><br /><br />You have not seen it because you rely exclusively on outdated and deeply partisan sources. While you are perfectly free to stick your fingers in your ears and sing like this, it's beginning to look a bit ridiculous.<br /><br />I agree that material culture does not lie but lies about its significance are easy to tell. When confirmation bias comes into play, and one has personal, professional, and economic motives for interpreting a material culture a certain way, those lies don't even have to be deliberate.<br /><br />When one lays out <em>all</em> the evidence, there are some similarities between Afanasievo and the Yamna culture of some centuries later and there are significant differences, too. The fact that the former were vertically-transhumant sheep herders, a subsistence strategy without parallel among the Yamna but with clear antecedents in southern Central Asia, should be significant to any but the most die-hard Kurganistas.<br /><br />It is also far from clear that the similarities are as significant as you and others seem to believe. Round-bottomed pots, for instance, first appear on the eastern Eurasian steppe in the sixth millennium BCE and are found over a wide geographic area. The circular enclosures of the Afanasievo may be related to the kurgan burials of the later Yamna people or they may not. How can anyone neutral enough argue that the similarities are more significant than the obvious differences?Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-92010368818491845992013-05-13T01:10:20.537+03:002013-05-13T01:10:20.537+03:00Just a point. Some people are talking here about &...<i>Just a point. Some people are talking here about "Gedrosia and West Asian" as if these are two different components. West Asian component it self is a composite or ancestral to "Gedrosia and Caucasus" components of K12b. <br />IN fact the Gedrosia component is the much more unchanged part of West Asian while Caucasus appears like West Asian+Caucasus with North Euro influence.</i><br /><br />Kurti, these are just different levels of resolution. The West_Asian component of the lower resolutions (lower K) splits into the Caucasus and the Gedrosia components at a higher resolution, i.e. with more components. Basically! Of course, as you point out, things are more complicated, as the K12b Caucasus component does contain parts of the K7b Southern and Atlantic_Baltic components as well, and the K12b Gedrosia component includes part of the South_Asian component. Moreover, the Basques are about 10% Gedrosia while having 0% of West_Asian, which demands for an explanation, which I have tried to give. But, the K7b West_Asian component almost exclusively consists of Caucasus and Gedrosia, of parts of them.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71168694345052828292013-05-12T22:11:36.740+03:002013-05-12T22:11:36.740+03:00I'll just address everyone at once.
The weste...I'll just address everyone at once.<br /><br />The western mtdna lineages in afansevo should be a subset of the contemporary populations from the PC Steppes, Russia, and Kazakhstan, since any recently migrated mtdna in the afanasevo people probably derived from those areas. As it stands, mtdna K has not been found in any of the above regions pre 3k BC! All tests for western mtdna lineages in those regions, pre 3k BC, came back as U or H. Actually, it mostly come back as U. So we can suspect that the western lineages in afanasevo were mostly U and H, but lacked K. The Tarim mummies, however, had K and lacked U. That's why I don't think those Tarim mummies derived from afanasevo. <br /><br />Some very different western elements seems to have come to central Asia around 2k BC, ie different from the earliest IE peoples. You can see the western mtdna discontinuity around 2k BC here http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6cGT0FXvA1w/UAWpYIb7LDI/AAAAAAAAALw/EUZczxwoc8E/s1600/mtDNAtimeline.png<br /><br /> This discontinuity is associated with Androvono, which I believe was satem derived.<br /><br />I think there were two early thrusts of IE. One was from the PIE people of the PC steppes and the other was from central/ eastern europe, probably related to corded ware, and only partially derived from the PIE peoples. I think the former was largely r1b and mtdna u and h. I think the latter had was largely r1a and law had mtdna K. <br />pnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-70006600192998957382013-05-12T11:26:27.864+03:002013-05-12T11:26:27.864+03:00Colin Welling
"The western mtdna in Afansev...Colin Welling <br /><br />"The western mtdna in Afansevo would have been the "older" European types, U and maybe H, but not K."<br /><br />Why? As far as I know mtDNA K is attested in Europe two millennia before Afanasevo and it was probably not even the earliest.<br />Afanasevo postdates the arrival of most of the modern European mtDNA Hg-s with ages. <br />Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-88414086598735651622013-05-12T00:26:29.277+03:002013-05-12T00:26:29.277+03:00VA_Highlander: "that Afanasevo appears in the...VA_Highlander: <i>"that Afanasevo appears in the Altai no later than 3000 BCE"</i> <br /><br />I think I wasn't clear enough about this (I had misread), so I precise: the carbon datings of Afanasevo and the Yamnaya horizon are totally concordant. <br /><br />@ Colin Welling: about the bronze and iron age south Siberian aDNA's mtDNA U, I forgot there was also U4.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-89151594374761053702013-05-11T22:25:24.870+03:002013-05-11T22:25:24.870+03:00Colin Welling:
"The Tarim mummies did not de...Colin Welling:<br /><br /><i>"The Tarim mummies did not derive from Afanasevo."</i><br /><br />If you had made this statement before I had discussed the matter with wagg, here, I'd have disagreed and felt confident in doing so. But now I suspect that, like so many elements of the Kurgan narrative, the claim may not bear close scrutiny.<br /><br />The connection between Afanasievo, in Siberia, and Xiaohe and Gumuguo, in the Taklamakan desert, is based upon the early dates associated with these sites, on similarities between the woven baskets found in the Taklamakan and ceramic forms to the north, and on the identification of the mummies as Caucasoid. This is not a strong case, obviously, and given the fact that the authorities making the claim believe the Kurgan narrative and need this connection to make the story plausible, I have serious doubts.<br /><br /><i>"The androvono are a good candidate."</i><br /><br />From an archaeological standpoint, no, they are not.<br /><br />There are no horse remains associated with the early mummies, contrary to what one would expect were there a connection to Andronovo. What we have instead are the remains of Bactrian camels, obviously indicating a connection with the oases of southern Central Asia. The wheat, sheep, and woolen textiles, found at Gumuguo and Xiaohe likewise point to southern Central Asia and not to the Eurasian steppe.<br /><br /><i>"Also, I hope people realize that the Tocharian language may not have ever been established in the Tarim basin.We found Tocharian manuscript s in the t. basin, but that's not much..."</i><br /><br />Since surviving texts include monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, and caravan permits, there is no reason whatsoever to doubt that Tocharian was established in the Tarim basin.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-68388203825207652132013-05-11T20:51:39.402+03:002013-05-11T20:51:39.402+03:00@ Colin Welling:
The Tarim mummies did not deriv...@ Colin Welling: <br /><br /><i>The Tarim mummies did not derive from Afanasevo. The Western mtdna in those tarim mummies were the product of more recent migrations from Europe, circa 2k BC, carrying mt H and K but lacking U. The androvono are a good candidate. "</i><br /><br />Gotta love the certitude. You were there? Hope you had your camera with you. I expect some good shot! I'd love to see how it actually was. <br /><br />You're probably aware that the Xiaohe from <i>Chunxiang Li et al, 2010</i> points to south Siberia as the source from this population. South Siberian west Eurasian mtDNA lineages has to be mostly or totally from an Afanasevo substrate, hence these early Tarim settlers' haplogroups as well. <br /><br /><i>Kayzer et al, 2009</i> (Bronze and Iron age south Siberian aDNA) was not missing mtDNA U BTW. There was U2e and U5a in the lot (it's quite possible this population also had some U1a as it is found nowadays in the Altai and it was found in Bronze/iron age Kazakhstan (we can assume this lineage originated from Southern Russia as it is still there today), it's a possibility - but we can't be sure right now). You can't decide there were no U just because the few samples of the Xiaohe hadn't any. <br /><br />Anyway Afanasevo and Andronovo lineages should have a lot in common, especially early. <br /><br /><br /><i>"The western mtdna in Afansevo would have been the "older" European types, U and maybe H, but not K."</i> <br /><br />1/ K was among the south Siberian western female lineages from <i>Kayzer et al, 2009</i>. The samples from this study are roughly from 1800 BCE to 400 AD so some female lineages might have been newcomers as the Afanasevo culture vanished to become part of the Andronovo horizon around 1700 BCE, I guess. <br /><br />But... <br /><br />2/ You can't know for sure what was the exact history of all the K lineages. It's just too soon yet to lecture about the precise history of human lineages. <br /> <br /><br /><i>"R-m417 seems to have spread with the latter IE push related to the satem languages"</i> <br /><br />It isn't. There were <a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.fr/2008/11/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-eulau.html" rel="nofollow">R1a1a found in corded ware remains from 2600 BCE deep in modern Germany</a>. Besides, there are Scandinavian R1a1a that can't be related with the Dark ages' Satem/ Slavic migrations. <br /><br /><br />VA_Highlander: <i>"Given the outdated sources upon which you rely, this is hardly surprising"</i><br /><br />Afanasevo's Yamnaya metal artefacts, axes, cultual objects and funerary customs can't magically transform into something of a different nature. And the genetic nature of this population fits with the material culture. 1+1=2. <br /><br /><br /><i>"that Afanasevo appears in the Altai no later than 3000 BCE"</i> <br /><br />That's not the carbon dating date I've seen, and anyway material culture don't lie. It seems mostly Yamnaya derived and they were anyway culturally and technologically related.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-11565228097318031342013-05-11T16:24:32.716+03:002013-05-11T16:24:32.716+03:00"It isn't, unless the samples you mention...<i>"It isn't, unless the samples you mentioned from northwest Europe predate Seima-Turbino."</i><br /><br />Looks like I got that backwards. It should have read, and with apologies for any confusion:<br /><br /><i>"It isn't, unless the samples you mentioned from northwest Europe <b>postdate</b> Seima-Turbino.</i>Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-71246105411988870222013-05-11T07:26:58.864+03:002013-05-11T07:26:58.864+03:00I elaborate on that theory, herehttp://distantconn...I elaborate on that theory, herehttp://distantconnections.wordpress.com/25-2/<br /><br />Also, I hope people realize that the Tocharian language may not have ever been established in the Tarim basin.We found Tocharian manuscript s in the t. basin, but that's not much...pnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29380490466642295512013-05-11T07:18:55.742+03:002013-05-11T07:18:55.742+03:00@wagg
"As for the Tarim R1a1as I assume bot...@wagg <br /><br />"As for the Tarim R1a1as I assume both Afanasevo (and thus originally coming from the west: archaeology, genetics, morphology imposing this view) that were apparently almost exclusively R1a1a given the results of several studies and the Sakas to be the source of these R1a1a. 2 different waves separated by a long time."<br /><br />The Tarim mummies did not derive from Afanasevo. The Western mtdna in those tarim mummies were the product of more recent migrations from Europe, circa 2k BC, carrying mt H and K but lacking U. The androvono are a good candidate. The western mtdna in Afansevo would have been the "older" European types, U and maybe H, but not K.<br /><br />R-m417 seems to have spread with the latter IE push related to the satem languages. R1b, on the other hand, peaks in the areas where IE migrants first settled outside of the PC steppe - Anatolia, Southern Urals, and the Altai region. R1b is also associated with the earliest IE break offs - Anatolian, Tocharian, and Italo-Celtic. So we see a linguistic and archaeological association of the earliest IE with r1b. Furthermore, ancient west Eurasians of Central Asia/Eastern Europe share closer mtdna relations the people of the Southern Urals and the Altai, than they do with most other modern central Asian populations.pnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-14971193127102135402013-05-10T18:42:22.011+03:002013-05-10T18:42:22.011+03:00wagg:
"I think anyone neutral enough has to ...wagg:<br /><br /><i>"I think anyone neutral enough has to accept that west Eurasian lineages in Tarim, coming from south Siberia (likely from the east of the Altai region given the occurence of the first Tarim settlers) have to be related to Afanaseo..."</i><br /><br />Ha! I should counter that anyone skeptical enough would consider all possible explanations for the presence of such lineages before accepting that their preferred narrative is in fact the most plausible. Given the fact that Afanasevo appears in the Altai no later than 3000 BCE, it is difficult to see your preferred narrative as even possible, let alone plausible.<br /><br />And I should further suggest more generally that, when substituting plausible narrative for a scientific model based on empirical observation, anyone insufficiently skeptical will inevitably be led astray.<br /><br /><i>"Seima-Turbino is at best originating in 1,900 BC, and I fail to see how this is a blow to what I've previously said."</i><br /><br />It isn't, unless the samples you mentioned from northwest Europe predate Seima-Turbino. But as I say, it hardly matters, since by the time the mummy people arrived in the Tarim basin increasing aridity had led many formerly sedentary populations to adopt a life of nomadic pastoralism. Context matters, you know, even when concocting plausible narratives.<br /><br /><i>"As far as I can see, archeology (material culture) and genetics discard this view."</i><br /><br />Given the outdated sources upon which you rely, this is hardly surprising. What surprises is that anyone neutral enough would cling to such outdated sources so tenaciously.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84171321603634632192013-05-09T12:23:23.033+03:002013-05-09T12:23:23.033+03:00@ Dr Rob said
"I agree with Va-Highlander. ...@ Dr Rob said <br /><br /><i>"I agree with Va-Highlander. To re-iterate again, not only have yu too much faith in Y0DNA (which is merely 1 marker which is liable to large 'skewing') but your readily accepting that the R1a1 in the Tarim basin came from Pontic_Ural region rather than soutehr or southwestern Asia."</i> <br /><br />This has already been answered with galore of evidences (from _large_ mtDNA evidences to dental characteristics (it does concern the Tarim people as well)) so there is no point in going further with this.<br /><br /><br /><i>"Despite Keyser's STR studies of affinities to modern EE populations, her sampling of Asia was pretty negligible, and moreover, STRs are simply not that reliable, as we all know."</i> <br /><br />Yes, let's just ignore the typical west eurasian mtDNA lineages (w/ matches in Europe) and the other genetic elements (including concerning cattle or autosomal profiles of modern and ancient population of that region (ALT-BA in the graphs from <i>Der Sarkissian et al, 2013</i>), anthropomorphological data (morphology and skulls) and archeological link, i.e. material culture (Pontic region-> Afanasevo). <br />Let's just shrugg it off. <br /><br /><br />@ Va_Highlander <br /><br /> <i>[wagg: "Except for the few west Eurasian mtDNA lineages, one of which (a mtDNA H) was found by the Chinese team to have several modern matches exclusively in Europe and in fact, up to north-western Europe."] <br /> "So what? You set out to prove that Afanasevo originated across the Eurasian steppe and now hang the claim on DNA samples from more than a thousand years later, drawn from a population that everyone agrees was mixed and from a time when nomadic pastoralists had wandered the steppe for some centuries."</i> <br /><br />I think anyone neutral enough has to accept that west Eurasian lineages in Tarim, coming from south Siberia (likely from the east of the Altai region given the occurence of the first Tarim settlers) have to be related to Afanasevo, especially around 2,150 BCE (approximate date for the first known settlers)). <br /><br /><br /><i>"Off the top of my head, Seima-Turbino originated in the Altai and burial sites stretch from Mongolia to Finland."</i> <br /><br />Seima-Turbino is at best originating in 1,900 BC, and I fail to see how this is a blow to what I've previously said. <br /><br /><br /><i>"There seems little doubt that the mummy people derived from the Altai. The question before us was how did the sheep-herding culture of the Afanasevo arrive or arise there. The most plausible answer at this point is that it spread north-east from one or more Central-Asian colonies in Tajikistan."</i> <br /><br />As far as I can see, archeology (material culture) and genetics discard this view.<br /><br /><br />I don't think I need to say more given the amount of data I provided. <br /><br />--<br />Erratum: <br /><i>"Scandinavian <i>lask</i> (salmon) and Tocharian A <i>lask</i> (fish)"</i> <br /><br />Oops. It's <i>laks</i> not <i>lask</i>, sorry.wagghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13582568982610797947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-57847606436931758122013-05-08T21:59:26.531+03:002013-05-08T21:59:26.531+03:00wagg:
"Except for the few west Eurasian mtDN...wagg:<br /><br /><i>"Except for the few west Eurasian mtDNA lineages, one of which (a mtDNA H) was found by the Chinese team to have several modern matches exclusively in Europe and in fact, up to north-western Europe."</i><br /><br />So what? You set out to prove that Afanasevo originated across the Eurasian steppe and now hang the claim on DNA samples from more than a thousand years later, drawn from a population that everyone agrees was mixed and from a time when nomadic pastoralists had wandered the steppe for some centuries.<br /><br />Off the top of my head, Seima-Turbino originated in the Altai and burial sites stretch from Mongolia to Finland. That provides at least one possible vector, one which, unlike Anthony's lost tribe, is unambiguously attested in the archaeological record.<br /><br /><i>"Anyway, the Asian south Siberian mtDNA is a good indication of the origin of these first settlers in itself (mtDNA C4 is till found mainly in the Altai nowadays IIRC..."</i><br /><br />I agree. There seems little doubt that the mummy people derived from the Altai. The question before us was how did the sheep-herding culture of the Afanasevo arrive or arise there. The most plausible answer at this point is that it spread north-east from one or more Central-Asian colonies in Tajikistan. Whether it was carried there by colonists themselves or was adopted by local tribes of hunter-gatherers or some combination of the two seems immaterial. Y-DNA may provide a clue or it may not.<br /><br />Personally, I am far from convinced that the Afanasevo spoke some precursor of Tocharian and in fact it may well be a question that science cannot answer. Moreover, and as Dienekes has emphasized before me, the language is not attested until well into the first millennium CE. By that time the historic Silk Routes had flourished for some centuries and clearly Central-Asian cultural elements had been present in the Tarim basin for at least a couple of millennia. That by such a date the oases in which Tocarian was spoken had undergone multiple demic events, and been subject to multiple cultural influences, seems beyond question. If it's true and a language had survived more-or-less unchanged under such conditions over the course of 4,500 years, that would be rather extraordinary, I should think.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-5728839517323661372013-05-08T06:24:56.072+03:002013-05-08T06:24:56.072+03:00@ Wagg;
I agree with Va-Highlander. To re-iterat...@ Wagg; <br /><br />I agree with Va-Highlander. To re-iterate again, not only have yu too much faith in Y0DNA (which is merely 1 marker which is liable to large 'skewing') but your readily accepting that the R1a1 in the Tarim basin came from Pontic_Ural region rather than soutehr or southwestern Asia. Despite Keyser's STR studies of affinities to modern EE populations, her sampling of Asia was pretty negligible, and moreover, STRs are simply not that reliable, as we all know. <br /><br />They'd need to do further analyses of which specific cublcade of R1a1 the Tarmi basin mummies possesed - "European Z 280 or M458 or south Asian Z 93. Only then are we on a more secure footing<br /><br />However, even the that deosn't mean that R1a1 was not part of a largery mix of diverse Y Hgs which merely survived by historical fluke - ie the ever-present genetic drift which has most powerful effects on Y chromosome haplogroups. <br /><br /><br /><br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.com