January 13, 2012

Napoleon Bonaparte belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1c1* (E-M34*)

A previous paper on his mtDNA which was H.  A previous study found that Hitler also belonged to haplogroup E1b1b. So, expect plenty of war and mayhem if a new European leader emerges with a haplogroup E1b1b chromosome -- and, yes, I'm joking.

Journal of Molecular Biology Research Vol 1, No 1 (2011)

Haplogroup of the Y Chromosome of Napoléon the First

Gerard Lucotte, Thierry Thomasset, Peter Hrechdakian

Abstract
This paper describes the finding of the determination of the Y-haplogroup of French Emperor Napoléon I (Napoléon Bonaparte). DNA was extracted from two islands of follicular sheaths located at the basis of two of his beard hairs, conserved in the Vivant Denon reliquary. The Y-haplogroup of Napoléon I, determined by the study of 10 NRY-SNPs (non-recombinant Y-single nucleotide polymorphisms), is E1b1b1c1*. Charles Napoléon, the current collateral male descendant of Napoléon I, belongs to this same Y-haplogroup; his Y-STR profile was determined by using a set of 37 NRY-STRs (non-recombinant Y-microsatellites).

Link

38 comments:

  1. In Italy the nickname "Moro" is given to someone with black hairs and a darker skin than average, but I do not think Napoleon knew of an oriental origin of his family.
    Another famous "Moro" was Ludovico Sforza, duke of Milan.

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  2. Napoleon Bonaparte, Hitler, Louis XVI and Stalin, all despotic haplo East men. I see a system here.
    Talk about “Orientals” taken over Europe. lol

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  3. It is interesting that both Hitler and Napoleon should belong to the same haplogroup considering that they were from different ethnic backgrounds and the haplogroup is not that common in Europe.

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  4. Oh my God! What's really interesting, DagoRed and others, is how much people like you still confuse recent and ancient origins.

    E1b has a long history in Europe. All over Europe. With the exception of a few clades in Spain and Sicily, it does NOT mark a recent (i.e., during historical times, i.e. during recent memory, i.e., during the last 3000 years) origin.

    So to call either of these guys "oriental" or "eastern" is such a stretch.

    Put another way, ALL haplogroups originally have an origin outside of Europe, except Hg I. But to call someone non-European because of it is fallacious at best and totally clueless and misleading at worst.

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  5. E-V13 has a long history in Europe but not E-M34, even if both are subclades of E1b1.

    So, yes of course, it does not mean that Napoleon was "oriental" but his paternal line clearly was. E-M34 is definitely found mainly in Ethiopia and Arabic peninsula. It is also found at very small frequencies in southern Europe like in Sicily but this is a signal of recent middle-eastern influence.

    See its distribution here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#Proposed_explanations_of_the_distribution

    Moreover, in the case of Napoleon, his ancestor was called nickname "il Mauro". As stated above, this nickname is given to someone with black hairs and a darker skin than average... So why was he darker than average ? This can be explained just because his ancestor came from middle-east, probably during the 7th or8 th century ...

    Accorring to the scientists of Igenea

    http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=46

    "On hint to Napoleons ancestry is already given by the genealogy of his family: One of his ancestors, Francesco Buonaparte, has been called "il Mauro". His ancestors can be traced back to the city of Sarzana in northern Italy. In the the Middle ages this city has frequently been under attack by Saracens who controlled the Mediterranean Sea at this time. Therefore, Napoleons arabian ancestors probably came to Italy during the islamic expansion as conqueror or merchants."

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  6. @mooreisbetter I am not confusing anything, but you're right saying that the haplogrupp is very ancient in Europe, I only wanted to prevent confusion about the term Moor, which is a very common nickname in Italy, but has nothing to do with the Moors of North Africa, like many can think of.
    In Rome, for example, it is common to call a boy "a'more'(hey brown). For this reason I say that Napoleon could not know anything about Eastern origin of his family, because the nickname of his ancestor was generic and not geographical.

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  7. By the way: the Bonaparte family was surely originated in Tuscany and one of Sarzana was one of his branch.
    Someone wrote that it was of Lombard origin, but I have never read anything specific on this, and Napoleon's dna seem did not confirm this thesis.

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  8. @mooreisbetter
    You are right,genetics is just one part of the picture of belonging to a certain Cultural realm.
    But in the case of Hitler it’s hard not to grin,as someone who is 50/50 German-Palestinian and carrier of the “Caucasian” Haplo G2a. In contrast to Hitlers E1b1b. "as Führer des nordischen Herrenmenschen." ;-)
    In the case of Bonaparte, I doubt that he would have been disturbed by his likely oriental ancestry. In fact he would have declared himself probably Emperor of the Arabs or something.

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  9. Actually guys, the studies overwhelmingly conclude that this clade, like most of the other branches of E found in Europe, were introduced there during the Neolithic expansion.

    Napoleon's clade is found in parts of Spain and Portugal that were never subject to Moorish invasions.

    It is also routinely found on Corsica and among Italians in small percentages.

    The continued repetition that very widespread markers are due to a historical diffusion proves the maxim that "a little knowledge can be dangerous" but simultaneously reveals an utter lack of knowledge of prehistoric movements and of historical cultural prejudices.

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  10. And let me elaborate on the history, because I know I will get some questions.

    Mobility in the Middle Ages was almost nil. You do realize that human beings at that time needed the permission of the soverign (local nobility or national nobility) to relocate ONE VILLAGE over.

    In other words, a resident of a tiny little village in Europe needed permission to MARRY someone from the very next village over.

    In addition, the attitude towards foreigners, was, as you may imagine, even crazier than the attitude toward the rival village.

    Europe, especially Napoleon's ancestral lands, were more or less in a state of total war against the "Oriental" or "Moorish" or Arabic-speaking or Islamic world, from 700 AD to 1492.

    You have to take the most fearing, paranoid, hateful American now towards Osama bin Laden, multiply that by 1000, and add real violence (kidnappings, mass murder), and that was Europe's attitude toward the Arabic world then.

    Thus, the notion that some Arabic merchant picked up his bags and said "honey, I hear Tuscany is beautiful and I like their cream sauces" and moved to Sarzano is JUST. SO. HILARIOUS!!!!

    (As an aside, Sarzano is not named after Saracens as you imply. It is named for it's star-shaped fortess.)

    Put down the pop-genealogy tomes and learn the true cultural history. The Internet is so filled with so much crap trying to tie modern ancestry, invariably, to a historical event, when the reality is most often that it resulted to a much more boring prehistoric migration or peopling event.

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  11. I like to see the datas on historical event genealogy whether it is the progeny of Khan or Neill, the bones of Napoleon, Ötzi, and other burials or known historical migrations.

    Unfortunately the distance from hypothesis to hallucination is far too short for most of these fictions.

    I just have to wait for DNA evidence of the historical migrations to put the pre historic in some perspective.

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  12. "You are right,genetics is just one part of the picture of belonging to a certain Cultural realm.
    But in the case of Hitler it’s hard not to grin,as someone who is 50/50 German-Palestinian and carrier of the “Caucasian” Haplo G2a. In contrast to Hitlers E1b1b. "as Führer des nordischen Herrenmenschen." ;-)
    "

    I have had close contact with leftists in London and one of their most disturbing tendencies is their confusion of laughter with meaning. "Comedy" is routinely used as PC propaganda in the British media and in leftist "comedy" clubs in London and it shows how the leftists see the mental level of their audience that they can be swayed in grave matters with a snigger. Plato warned about all of this; the misuse of media and the extension of political influence to the masses (and ultimately to whoever controls the mass media). It is beyond me how a snigger can justify leftist statements like "genetics is just one part of the picture of belonging to a certain Cultural realm" but my contact with leftism has accustomed me to the rather nauseating phenomenon. In my estimation we as a civilisation are rushing toward a social catastrophe and we rush thence with a mental attitide not much higher than a snigger.

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  13. The studies does not conclude at all that this clade were introduced during the Neolithic expansion.

    According to the study, E-M34 (contrary to E-V13) arose very recently only about 3750 years ago "
    Its estimate age was 3850 ± 450 years. Parts of the descendants LATER migrated to Europe"

    Here is the real conclusion of the study :

    "Napoléon I himself knew his ancestry. In the St-Helen Memorial (Walter, 1956), he declared: “The mother of Pope Nicolas V originated from Sarzane; she was also a Buonaparte”. He confidentially said to Dr Francesco Antommarchi, his latest physician, about this male ancestry (Antommarchi, 1975): “My most remote ancestor, who inhabited Toscane, had the principles that I profess”. Probably Napoléon also knew his remote oriental patrilineal origins, because Francesco Buonaparte (the Giovanni son), who was a mercenary under the orders of the Genoa Republic in Ajaccio in 1490, was nicknamed “The Maur of Sarzane”. But, at this time (Tulard, 1999), the knowledge of his ancestry did not have the same importance as today."

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  14. Put down the pop-genealogy tomes and learn the true cultural history. The Internet is so filled with so much crap trying to tie modern ancestry, invariably, to a historical event, when the reality is most often that it resulted to a much more boring prehistoric migration or peopling event.

    I agree 100%. Luckily, we see associated "calculated" times of origin justifiably ridiculed pretty much every time an ancient haplogroup is determined. So, it is just a matter of a few years when all these card houses will fall apart.

    As to mobility, there were of course regional differences. In parts of central and northern/ north-eastern Europe, mobility was somewhat higher during that time (e.g., Slavic expansion and push-back; repeated attempts of Danish and Swedish control of the southern North Sea and Baltic coast lines, etc.).

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  15. With regard to the Bonaparte family we are fortunate enough, because it did the job for us.
    Napoleon to come to the school of war needed a noble ancestry and his family did do extensive research on its origins.
    They knew that their branch came from Sarzana and the first ancestor was a Bonapars or Bonapax (1245 AD)

    They also knew that the family was expelled from Florence (San Miniato) after the defeat of the imperial party, the Ghibellines.
    They asked the Grand Duke of Tuscany, a certification in order to bring Napoleon to the academy, but the Grand Duke refused it, because now the Bonapartes were foreign nationals.


    Today the Bonaparte's heirs use only the name Napoleon like a surname,instead Bonaparte, and this isn't a good thing.

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  16. A while ago I met a man who worked in a Church archive and he told me that it sometimes happened that Germans abducted Turkish war prisoners and took them along to Germany in the wake of the 17th century Ottoman wars. According to him, most prisoners converted to Christianity as a mean of survival and showed up by Nobles as an exotic Turk prize.
    He told me of a documented case from the 17th century in his archive ,of a Turkish woman who was taken captive in the Ottman wars and winded up as a Lady's maid of a noble woman. And what’s makes the matter even more "amusing", she ended up marrying a German Pastor.One of the reasons this case was documented is because the woman wore expensive dresses uncommon for a Pastor wife. This was actually noted in the Church-archive.

    And another of an Barbary corsair who was taken captive in a slave route abroad his ship and brought to Europe. I know this sounds bizarre, but this same man stood one day in front of a Church in South Germany and wanted to convert to Christianity. That’s why this case is documented in the Church archive.

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  17. Moreover, in the case of Napoleon, his ancestor was called nickname "il Mauro". As stated above, this nickname is given to someone with black hairs and a darker skin than average... So why was he darker than average ? This can be explained just because his ancestor came from middle-east, probably during the 7th or8 th century ...

    Accorring to the scientists of Igenea

    http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=46

    "On hint to Napoleons ancestry is already given by the genealogy of his family: One of his ancestors, Francesco Buonaparte, has been called "il Mauro". His ancestors can be traced back to the city of Sarzana in northern Italy. In the the Middle ages this city has frequently been under attack by Saracens who controlled the Mediterranean Sea at this time. Therefore, Napoleons arabian ancestors probably came to Italy during the islamic expansion as conqueror or merchants."


    What a pile of false statements. First of all in Italy "moro" is called also someone with black hair and not necessarily darker than average in skin tone.
    Second you have darker people in all Europe and not necessarily they are descendants of Moors.

    3rd Sarzana only had raids from Saracen pirates who roamed in the med(mostly in Cote Azur in France) , it never had settlements from Moors and the pirates were Turks, not "Arabian".

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  18. I knew that once this new started to roam the net the usual ridicolous statements of Arabs and Saracens would come out. Moreover If his haplo arrived in Italy 3500 years before he was born he was as arab as as a modern arab with R1b with iranid phenotype is. Some people seem to focus to one only ancestor forgiving all the other ancestry down the line. Quite ridiculous.

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  19. As for assimilation practises:

    I once saw a TV documentation about the "Teutonic Order". It claimed, the orders documents show, that it freqently used to attack a baltic village, kill all the adults for there is no chance these ever become true christians, but adopt the children and raise them as christian German speakers in East Prussia.

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  20. Thank you so much Eurologist and Alfio for helping rebut the zany "logic" of the pop-sci set.

    I hope this will be the last word on the subject. I guess I can sum things up by just saying that Nap's Hg is relatively common in Italy, particularly in South Italy, yet no one has mentioned the notion that he could have been Southern Italian...

    I kind of feel like this:

    The wackos, White Supremacists, and many practitioners of pop science always like to say that the Ancient Greeks were blonde Aryans (and imply that is why they were so smart and successful).

    The same wackos say that the Ancient Italians were blonde Aryans, and that Southern Italians are now "so dark" because they mixed with . . . Ancient Greeks!

    You can waste time parsing all the false statements above, but the last one to me is always the funniest.

    Here, we have always heard that Southern Italians are "marked" by the presence of more E1b/E3b haplogroups. And then when a famous person turns up of that Hg, we're told he can't be Southern Italian, can't be Italian at all, but must have been a "Moor."

    It is also so hilarious if you think of it...

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  21. A friend of mine, Dutch, has as surname De Moor. He thought it came from some Moor. He ended up having haplogroup I...and he is white-pinkish with light blue eyes.
    Don't try to see so much in a couple of patterns found in any one person.

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  22. I do find it curious that Napoleon and Hitler shared a paternal haplogroup that is not all that common in Europe. Not because it points to any sort of Oriental connection, but because it is peculiar that such a haplogroup would be overrepresented among two of Europe's most expansionist dictators, and who are otherwise not all that related. Could be coincidence, but could also be something to do with the haplogroup itself.

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  23. napoleon looks is classified as alpo mediteranean or in other references "berberid type" according to Hotoon and carlenton coon, M123 is founded among berber moroccans 3,7% and kabyle people 10% , Tunisians 15% and libyan jews 20% also founded among italians and portuguese around 3% to 5%, in fact M123 in europe and north africa seems to be be so much closest than his parallels in the levant and anatolia

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  24. Here are some Wiki articles on Beutetürken „Bootyturks“ in the German-realm.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beutetürken
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türkengräber_von_Hammet_und_Hasan

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  25. His surname means "Good-Side" in English. His Haplogroup is Neolithic and not that uncommon to Italy he probably has Southern Italian ancestry. even today the surname Buonaparte is more commonly found in Southern Italy than anywhere else.

    http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

    "The homeland of haplogroup E1b1b1c1 (M34) is placed in a relatively small region of the Middle East, covering south-east Asia Minor and the Levant areas (Syria and Palestine) [1]. This opinion is based on the fact that it is here presented as the haplogroup E1b1b1c1 * (M34), and its known subclades: E1b1b1c1a * (M84), E1b1b1c1a1 * (M136) and E1b1b1c1b * (M290) [2, 3, 4, 5, 6]. It may be the result of the long-term presence of this haplogroup. The haplogroup was found in the Eastern Mediterranean countries, in the European Mediterranean countries, the British Isles [7, 8, 9, 10, 11] as well as on the Arabian peninsula, but with relatively low diversity [12, 13, 14]."


    http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/viewArticle/48



    "E-M34 is found at low frequencies in Ethiopia, the Near East, Europe and northern Africa. According to the authors, it was introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East. Their justification is that it is found in several populations of the Near East, whereas in eastern Africa it is limited to Ethiopia and not found in Somalia or Kenya. The authors suggest that E-M34 was introduced into Europe in the Neolithic from the Near East, but they caution against this hypothesis, because E-M34 is absent in the Balkans, while it is present in southern-central Europe (6.6% of Sicilians, 2.3% of southern Italians, 3.5% of Sardinians). So, it is either of African origin, or of Neolithic origin in southern-central Europe."


    http://dodona.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=genetics&action=display&thread=6431

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  26. My fault,dont know if that Gens Italia link was posted correctly. Here:

    http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/gif.html?cognome=BUONAPARTE&k=FF&t=cognomi&s=B

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  27. ^
    Napoleon is E-M34 not M123.

    Flores et al. reported 10% E-M34 in Galicia too.

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  28. Napoleon's origins solved - here's what well know DNA blogger Didier Vernade wrote:


    You are welcome. It would be easier to follow for others with my previous writing.
    Here is the link :
    http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/article/sur-la-trace-des-bonaparte-108273
    see the answer by "Aldous"
    Here is what he is writing (in french) :
    "Ce qui est intéressant c’est que ça recoupe une hypothèse d’origine levantine des Bonaparte que Napoléon aurait mise en avant dans sa jeunesse pour se trouver des quartiers de noblesse.
    Une hypothèse qu’il feindra d’ignorer une fois devenu empereur, étant devenu lui même le fondateur d’une dynastie.
    Selon cette hypothèse, la famille Bonaparte serait issue d’une famille noble de Trébizonde, cité grecque sur la mer noire, qui est même devenue la capitale d’un éphémère Empire de Trébizonde à la chute de Constantinople à la tête duquel à régné celui qu’on peut considérer comme l’ultime "empereur romain" David II Comnène.
    Selon donc cette hypothèse, la partie noble de la famille aurait fui l’invasion ottomane et serait partie en exil en Italie.
    Le nom de la famille serait Kaloméridès c’est à dire en grec "bonne partie" qui aurait été ensuite italisé en "buona parte" et finalement Buonaparte, nom de naissance du petit Napoleone.
    La légende familiale avait fait lever à l’époque les moqueries car il était assez facile de se prévaloir d’une lignée noble byzantine puisque l’empire avait disparu depuis plus depuis 300 ans et avec lui toute les preuve infirmant ou confirmant cette éventuelle filiation.
    Ce qui est intéressant, c’est que la légende familiale rattachant les Buonaparte/Kaloméridès à une lointaine descendance patriarcale romaine, peut être même impériale, a manifestement entretenu en Napoléon la conviction d’un destin singulier, légitimant sa restauration de l’empire, avec lui dans le rôle de César."

    and here is what I posted on this list a few hours ago in an answer to Argiedude :

    Yes, More precisely M34+ . It just happens that a new SNP (actually 2 similar SNPs) were found to unify the D2 cluster and the D1 cluster ; L791 and L792 . So, all these haplotypes are supposed to be L791+ and that would target rather nicely.
    Now the question is : what about this D2 cluster ?
    Since the beginning of this search and through different forums I gathered some interesting thoughts. One is about a familial tradition of the Bonaparte family (I am translating from a post in french) : the original name would have been Kaloméridès (greek) later translated in Italian as "buona parte" and Buonaparte , made in french as Bonaparte. The origin would be the Trébizonde empire on the black sea ; a remnant of the greek position in Anatolia. These people would have left Anatolia when the Ottoman came in. My idea about the whole story is that M34+ is correlated with the city of Jericho on the dead sea. After the fall of this city some people were assimilated as greeks (possibly merchants) adn later went as greeks in the rest of the roman empire.
    Didier
    Argiedude wrote :
    It's a member of a well known cluster of E1b1b-M123:

    http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/cluster/32

    I did some estimates of this cluster. In north Italy it's about 2 to 4 samples out of 1500 total samples, or 0.2%. In south Italy it's 5 or 6 samples out of 550 total samples, or 1%.

    NB : my blog (in french) made a maximum of 30 visits thanks to this interesting subject.
    (www.chezdidier.org)

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  29. There is absolutely no evidence linking Napoleon with the Empire of Trebizond.

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  30. There have been known Europeans who have haplogroup that are not common in Europe. As Napoleon is E1b1b1c1, Thomas Jefferson was of haplogroup T, which originated in the Middle East. It doesn't mean that these men weren't white.

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  31. Here's more:

    "One of [Louis Napoleon's] ancestors, David II., Emperor of Trebisonde, was the rightful heir to the throne of Constantinople, but was put to death by Mahomed II.; his only surviving son, George Nicephor Comnene, fled to Mania in Peloponesus in 1476, and was made Protogeras over the community that was settled there. This official dignity was held by ten members of the Comnene family in succession, until 1675, when Constantine Comnene, the tenth protogeras, was induced from fear of being subjugated by the Turks, to emigrate from Mania to Italy with 3000 of his fellow-countrymen. Arriving in Genoa on Jan. l, 1676, he obtained from the Genoese Senate a grant of some tracts of land in Corsica, which were thenceforth colonized by him and his descendants. One of his sons, Calomeros Comnene, subsequently settled in Florence in Tuscany, and as the Greek word Calomeros (icaXog jiepog) signifies in Italian buona parte, he therefore adopted the name of Buonaparte. In 1719 Antonio Buonaparte, a member of this Buonaparte branch of the Comnene family, emigrated from Tuscany to Corsica: and Napoleon Buonaparte, who was born at Ajaccio in Corsica on Aug. 15, 1769, was his grandson. Corsica was ceded by the -Genoese to France in 1768. The descent of the Comnene family from David II.r lust Emperor of Trebisonde, was attested by letters patent of Louis XVI., issued on Sept. 1, 1783. This account of Napoleon's family is given in the Memoirs of the Duchess D'Abrantes, published at Paris in 1835."


    http://books.google.com/books?id=WNVCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=Memoirs+of+the+Duchesse+D%27Abrantes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3M8ZT6jRE8XctwflouicBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Memoirs%20of%20the%20Duchesse%20D%27Abrantes&f=false

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  32. For me the interesting thing is that my daughter's grandfather is from Corsica and bear a strong resemblance to Napoleon. Here's my daughter's Oracle K12a Results, Mixedmode:

    > DodecadOracle(c(39.77,0.00,0.16,40.58,0.01,0.00,9.56,7.16,0.00,2.40,0.00,0.37), mixedmode=T, k=10)
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "18.9% Greek_D + 81.1% Kent_1KG" "0.3228"
    [2,] "80.9% British_D + 19.1% Greek_D" "0.3636"
    [3,] "80% Dutch_D + 20% Tuscan" "0.5829"
    [4,] "79.4% Dutch_D + 20.6% TSI25" "0.6129"
    [5,] "74.9% British_Isles_D + 25.1% O_Italian_D" "0.7165"
    [6,] "81.4% British_Isles_D + 18.6% S_Italian_D" "0.7273"
    [7,] "19.4% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 80.6% British_Isles_D" "0.7432"
    [8,] "80.3% Dutch_D + 19.7% O_Italian_D" "0.7596"
    [9,] "17.8% C_Italian_D + 82.2% Dutch_D" "0.7814"
    [10,] "21% O_Italian_D + 79% CEU25" "0.8236"

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  33. Here the link for the complete Bonaparte's family lineage.

    http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letterab/buonaparte.htm

    Google books has the study which it is based

    http://books.google.it/books/about/Storia_genealogica_della_famiglia_Bonapa.html?id=wSAbAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y

    In italian, sorry.

    The stories about imperial lineage or with an ancient Lombard Count was invented to flatter Louis Napoleon III. Modern studies have shown their inconsistency.

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  34. I am an ashkenaz Jew E1b1b1c1a as done by familytreedna & dna heritage,, and i am really Pale skinned. So just because you are E1b1b1c does not mean you are dark. I do have very black hair as does all my siblings and father for what its worth... This haplogroup came from the eastern mediterranean and transversed into the levant, arabian pennisula, and northeast Africa (ethiopia & somalia). From those areas it traveled north to europe via italy & north across the black sea to eastern europe. Of course there must have been plenty of other routes to Europe via the Mediterranean sea & turkey & more...

    E1b1b1c is much different than E1b1b1a (generally southern european branch) & E1b1b1b (generally berber north african). E1b1b1c is the "semetic" branch as its mostly found in populations within dominant haplogroup J populations.(speak & spoke Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic as well as other semetic languages). E1b1b1c is most notably found in modern day Israel & ancient Judean and levantine populations.

    Just to note Haplogroup E is one of the most dominant lineages found in Black Africans. But those lineages are any E haplogroups outside of E1b1b.

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  35. I belong to the Zindani tribe thats 100% E1b1b M123 In Israel, Yemen & Libya all Zindani/Zintani are E1b1b M123

    The Zindani tribe still exists in Yemen centered around Khums Zindan in Arhab all members tested exclusively E1b1b M123, All Israeli Zindani families also tested E1b1b M123 with matching haplotypes, Zintani Libyans are also E1b1b M123 (although they have other haplogroups also, who toke the surname after the place in Libya they have Khums Zintan)

    E1b1b M123 itself has many Proto-Semitic branches, the Zindan/Zintan tribe is so far the only verified lineage, that can be tested & proven.

    E1b1b M123 = Mein People

    So go look for your own tribe!

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  36. Hitler's obsession was eugenically transubstantiating the present human race -- the Irano-Aryan Indo-Germanics being the best candidates for this "mutation" into Uebermenschen.

    Hitler openly mocked the primeval Germanism cult of Himmler. Hitler stated while ancient Germans were building huts, Romans were building a civilization.

    Hitler's whole thing was like a mixture of Theosophical spiritual racism and Nietzschean futurism. Hitler claimed the "Aryo-Nordics" were merely only the best *CANDIDATE* for the future "transubstantiation/mutation", -- Blavatsky root-race theory playing an underscored, but heavy, heavy part here...

    Let's at least be scholastically truthful about his ideology before we use a false argument to defeat a false position.

    Moreover, an ill-informed person stated social mobility in medieval times was "nil." A more ignorant statement could not have been made... Any commoner who went the extra mile and displayed exceptional merit, either in intellectual prowess (educationally) or in patriotic, warkuje virtue in battle, was capable of ennoblement. Platonic virtue-ethics was the basis of medieval aristocratic theory: arete was intrinsically ennobling as a quality in itself... One only has to look up the term "knight-banneret" -- a commoner who displayed truly above-average bravery was ennobled straight on the battle-field, even by the regal potentate himself sometimes...

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  37. There was constant migration in medieval times. Italy was always mobile and of course MERCHANTS will come to whatever cities they want. Kind of ridiculous.

    But I agree that the e1b groups have zero to do with "moors". They are spread everywhere in small numbers and are associated with phoenicians, ethiopians, lebanese and jews.

    Maybe they come from east africa, maybe even SA.

    While you can't take too much out of patriarchal ancestor a lot of populations have deeply intermixed only recently or they'd not show up as lineages at all any more.

    I find it interesting they all have large heads and similar skull shape, and more interesting it seems that a large percentage of historically famous people come from relatively rare haplogroups.

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  38. E1b has nothing to do with Semites or middle-eastern people

    E1b is a Hamitic branch of people that arose in east-Africa.

    J is a Semitic haplogroup!

    Jews and so-called Arabs with y-dna e1B are not Semites, but Hamites that converted to Juidism.

    The real children of Abraham are Y-dna J (J1 and J2)

    The HAMITES ARE: Berbers, Cushites, ancient Egyptians, Balkan(Albania/Serbia/greece) and some Hamites of the middle-east

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