July 19, 2011

Eastern Mediterranean marker in Northeast Wales

If anyone knows what marker they're talking about, leave a comment. Here's the address of the event, so if anyone is in Wrexham or can get to it in a few hours and attends the talk, feel free to report back. From the event site:
Focusing on the history of the Wrexham area, the team are particularly keen to meet people with ancestry in north east Wales, Cheshire or Shropshire. There will also be an opportunity to contribute your own DNA sample to the project should you wish.
'Extraordinary' genetic make-up of north east Wales men
Experts are asking people from north east Wales to provide a DNA sample to discover why those from the area carry rare genetic make-up.

So far, 500 people have taken part in the study which shows 30% of men carry an unusual type of Y chromosome, compared to 1% of men elsewhere the UK.

Common in Mediterranean men, it was initially thought to suggest Bronze Age migrants 4,000 years ago.


Dr Grierson is leading the talk at Glyndŵr University on Tuesday and wants to speak to people with ancestry in the region to discover what is known about their family history - and to provide them with an opportunity to contribute a DNA sample to the project.

"The number of people in the north east Wales with this genetic makeup is quite extraordinary," he said.

"This type of genetic makeup is usually found in the eastern Mediterranean which made us think that there might have been strong connections between north east Wales and this part of Europe somewhere in the past.

"But this appears not to be the case, so we're still looking to find out why it's happened and what it reveals about the history of the region."


  1. They're talking about Y haplogroup E1b. An unusually high frequency showed up once in a small Welsh sample, which eventually led to this study. Checking Google, this Welsh E1b is more specifically said to be E-V13. I see many people speculating about Roman soldiers, but I doubt there is much of a story beyond random drift.

  2. A paper will likely be forthcoming in a few months time...that is my surmise.

  3. It's E1b, of course. I have discussed the matter in the past at some forum. However I cannot tell right now if it is E1b-V13 (the "Balcanic" variant) or E1b-M81 (the "North African" variant) or something else or even a well apportioned mix of various sublineages.

    My guess is that mostly M81, because it is the most common in West Iberia, which may have been the source or intermediate station, but unsure.

  4. I found something but not specifically on NE Wales: it is about the presence of mostly E-M78 (which is probably E-V13 in most cases) in Britain (including Wales) but not Ireland.

    There are lists of haplotypes and exploration of several hypothesis about the timing of the arrival (the author favors Bronze Age or Bell Beaker periods over Neolithic). What I find notable is that most are E-M78 (probable E-V13) and only one is labeled E-M81. This means that, if arrived via Iberia, there is a difference if the pattern of diffusion of both haplogroups... or that it arrived from mainland central Europe, where E-M81 is rare.

  5. This lends credence to the biblical-historical legends. When the volcano Thera violently erupted about 1500BCE, waves of refugees fled the eastern Mediterranean and migrated up the European coast settling as far north as Ireland.

  6. E1b is found in Kerry in the extreme South West of Ireland, especially the McCarthy family, which were the hereditary chieftains of the area. I couldn't tell you what type.

    I remember asking Dienekes about this 5 or more years ago, as I speculated an Eastern Med connection. St Patrick when he was converting the Irish to Christianity, never ventured into Kerry. I speculated this was because they were already Christian, from an Eastern Med - possibly Egyptian source. There are stone "Beehive huts" on the coast of Kerry, very similar to the Anchorites.

  7. Conroy: tholoi were first used as (seemingly) habitation in Kurdistan and Syria(Tell Halaf) and Cyprus (Khirokitia) but the first confirmed use of them as tombs is in the context of the SE Iberian civilization of Los Millares and contemporary peoples elsewhere in Iberia (specially the SW). There is a gap of more than 1000 years between the West Asian tholoi and the Iberian ones.

    It is only later, in the context of cultural and surely trading contacts between El Argar and Mycenaean Greece (Minoan Crete first?) when the tholos tomb arrives to Greece. I understand therefore that tholoi are a West-to-East cultural flow, just like dolmens (there are simultaneous and maybe more important flows East-to-West, worry not).

    Other related buildings (same architectural concept of false dome) are the Sardinian Nuraghe and the Motillas of La Mancha (related to El Argar and its area of influence).

    Irish tholoi should be considered therefore within the neo-Megalithic cultural fashion of the Chalcolithic period that sees these and other innovative burial models (artificial caves specially) become popular among the elites, this phenomenon overall probably had an Iberian center, rather than an East Mediterranean one.

    Connections with the Eastern Mediterranean are not impossible at this time (since c. 3000 BCE) but they are not really backed by the archaeology. Only since c. 1800 BCE (Bronze Age) we can clearly speak of such interaction.

    So, in terms of genetics I would not expect flows from the Eastern Med in the Chalcolithic period. Before (in the Neolithic) and after (in the Bronze and Iron Ages) they are more plausible instead.

  8. It has been suggested in previous studies that Wales has higher E1b frequency because the Anglo-Saxon invaders pushed the Romano-British into the Western "Celtic fringes", to form the "E3b hole" (google it) in Central England, where E1b is almost completely absent. It would be interesting to see whether Brittany (in France), a major destination of Romano-British flight, also has higher E1b levels.

  9. "My guess is that mostly M81, because it is the most common in West Iberia, which may have been the source or intermediate station, but unsure."
    I see. So your looking a variant common in western Iberia even though it was said the variant is common in the eastern Mediterranean.

  10. AS I recall there was an something historical about very early miners/traders settling in this region of North Wales. I will try and look it up.

  11. Here is a link to an article arguing that the concentration of E3b in North Wales is due to Roman occupation.


  12. Found it on Dienekes site LOL


    There is also this on the mine:


    For some reason I think there was some association with the Phoenicians, and Portugal/Western Spain, but I cant find the reference.

  13. Associated but still not the reference:

    "Hawkes (ib.) argued that the shape is not that of a currach but that of a Phoenician tub-shaped golah. If accepted, the attested Phoenic/Punic presence on the coasts of Portugal plus a possible analogy from north Wales in west Britain would closely parallel the 10 Greek ships proven by anchor-shanks from Setubal Bay (Portugal) and echoed by another again in north Wales but this time at Porth Felen. The Caergwle boat is of the Bronze Age but the anchor-stocks are said by Eric Boon (Antiquaries Journal 1975) to be of Iron Age date.

    Read more: Phoenicians in West Europe: From Canaan to Cornwall & Cork http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html#ixzz1SeERumyw"


  14. Llandudno in North Wales had Bronze Age copper mining, but I would question it as a source of E1b.

    Spillover from the Romans or people the Roman brought with them who greatly stepped up mining activity in North Wales ca. 78 C.E. from craft scale operations to industrial scale operations would be a more likely candidate. There was lots of E1b in the Roman Empire and skilled work like mining was more common in the Eastern Empire where E1b-V13 is more common (soldiers recruited more heavily from the Roman frontiers).

    The problem with the suggestion of Gnarlodious of a Bronze Age collapse era source is that it proves too much. If that were the case, we'd expect E1b at similar frequencies all over the British Isles and we don't, since Indo-European Celtic cultures manifested themselves all over the region at about that time (or really a mite later). Also, as Maju notes, we would expect E1b-M81, as in people who might have Iberian Celtic roots, not E1b-V13, after all, the Celtic origin myths suggest an Iberian stopping off point.

    The problem with a founder effect from a really old Welsh population (at the very least Celtic era if not older) is that one would expect more a clinal pattern at that age depth, instead of a gap from 30% E1b to 1% E1b in a fairly short geographic distance between regions that aren't all that culturally distinct (unlike e.g. Caucasian populations that have that level of genetic distinction at those kinds of geographic distances).

  15. @n/a

    Was it only one town sampled when they found those high rates of E1b?

  16. "the attested Phoenic/Punic presence on the coasts of Portugal"...

    Attested? yes, important? not really.

    The Phoenician colonies were in Andalusia (and Morocco), not Portugal. The Westernmost (and only Atlantic) Phoenician colony in Iberia was Gadir, modern Cádiz. Their trade and cultural influence was also most intense and oldest in Andalusia (Southern Spain).

    However it is well known that Phoenicians traveled to Cornwall for tin and a shipwreck was found as far as German or Danish waters. So Phoenician trade with Wales is very plausible. But from trade to colonization there is a lot: in the prized (and rather well known) tin mines of Cornwall, Phoenicians only traded and do not seem to have ever set even a permanent trading post at all, much less dedicated themselves to the hard labor of mining.

    The rarity of tin (compared with the relative commonality of copper) makes tin sources a more likely focus of interest for colonial enterprises. So I find a copper-mining colony at least a bit strange, more so a Phoenician mining colony (I don't think Phoenicians were into working at all: they were sailors, traders... even warriors but they are not famed for mining or any other forms of hard work).

    The Roman legion hypothesis does not seem to make much sense either. Why would Roman legionaries be of Albanian or Greek origin (only likely sources of such high frequencies of E-V13, notwithstanding founder effect) of all places and why would have they been concentrated in NE Wales of all places as well.

    If it has a Roman-era origin, I'd rather think of it as a slave colony. After all it were slaves who worked in most mines in those times.

  17. And it makes perfect sense that Roman mine slaves would have a substantial reproductive advantage to drive a Y-chromosome marker to prominence.

  18. It does not make much sense but I forgot to mention that I do not endorse the Roman hypothesis at all. I find the apparent founder effect intriguing but I cannot judge given the scarcity of the data (at least the one I know).

  19. Fascinating, if the source turns out to be Albanian E-V13, as the old name for Britain was "Alban", later only applied to Northern Britain, and eventually only Scotland. The "Alp/Alb" abbreviation is found in many places, I wonder if they are linked.

  20. "My guess is that mostly M81, because it is the most common in West Iberia, which may have been the source or intermediate station"

    I tend to agree. As I recall that is the E haplogroup from the Canaries. After all, if a group could emerge beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, turn south and reach the canaries by sea it is most likely that they would also have turned north to Western Iberia and Britain. The only question is whether E-M81 arrived from East Africa into North Africa by boat or overland. If the haplogroup in question is E1b1b1b-M81 it would be the product of a pre-Neolithic Mediterranean expansion, if E1b1b1a1b-V13 it could be Mycenaean or Phoenician.

    "one would expect more a clinal pattern at that age depth, instead of a gap from 30% E1b to 1% E1b in a fairly short geographic distance between regions that aren't all that culturally distinct"

    Yes. That does require some explanation.

  21. A specialized mining extended family specifically imported would have a reporductive advantage.

  22. "My guess is that mostly M81, because it is the most common in West Iberia, which may have been the source or intermediate station"

    I tend to agree.

    E-M81 is not an Eastern Mediterranean haplogroup, the article speaks of a genetic makeup "usually found in the Eastern Mediterranean", ergo, they are not talking about E-M81.

  23. If I am not mistaken the common Roman mining slave was of lowest rank and worked to death.
    Varo calls them “talking tools”. I think it would be likely that they used Britannic insurgents in the mines, maybe under the supervision of specialized metalworkers from outside of Britannia.

  24. "I find a copper-mining colony at least a bit strange,"

    My understanding is that while the oldest mines in Wales are copper mines that they diverisfied in addition to increasing scale when the Romans arrived. For example:

    "There had been small-scale mining in Wales in the pre-Roman British Iron Age, but it would be undertaken on an industrial scale under the Romans, who completed their conquest of Wales in AD 78. Substantial quantities of gold, copper, and lead were extracted, along with lesser amounts of zinc and silver. Mining would continue until the process was no longer practical or profitable, at which time the mine would be abandoned.[1] The extensive excavations of the Roman operations at Dolaucothi provide a picture of the high level of Roman technology and the expertise of Roman engineering in the ancient era."

  25. princenuadha,

    "Was it only one town sampled when they found those high rates of E1b?"

    Yes; the town was Abergele and the sample size was 18. The other, larger Welsh sample showed unremarkable levels of E1b. If the researchers are truly seeing 30% E1b in a new, much larger (n=500) sample from northern Wales, then the result may be more interesting. But the question still remains exactly how broad a geographic area and how large a population these men represent.


    "And it makes perfect sense that Roman mine slaves would have a substantial reproductive advantage to drive a Y-chromosome marker to prominence."

    It hasn't been established that anything beyond random demographic processes are necessary to explain this "anomaly". Nor, if reproductive advantage is indicated would it necessarily suggest that advantage accrued to the original E-V13 bearer(s) in the area or their immediate descendants. One could imagine a scenario, for example, in which E-V13 diffused to Britain during the Bronze Age, and remained at low levels in this part of Wales until at some much later date a local tribal leader who happened to carry the lineage founded a successful dynasty. Assuming the theories linking the prevalence of M222 in NW Ireland to Niall of the Nine Hostages are correct, if Niall had happened to belong to a rare "Mediterranean" haplogroup, we would see the same sort of anomaly in Ireland.

  26. Andrew Oh-Willeke,

    "The problem with a founder effect from a really old Welsh population (at the very least Celtic era if not older) is that one would expect more a clinal pattern at that age depth, instead of a gap from 30% E1b to 1% E1b in a fairly short geographic distance between regions that aren't all that culturally distinct"

    I've seen no information on the age of this Welsh E1b. All the E-V13 in this part of Wales could coalesce to 500AD, for all we know -- in which case it would tell us virtually nothing about the genetic makeup of the inhabitants prior to this time.

  27. For years now everyone has assumed that the E found in Walles is V13. The surprise wil be if these researchers find M81 instead. The frequency of V13 in Portugal and Galicia is around 5%. How it got there is one question; whether it moved on to Wales is the other.

  28. The majority of E found in Wales is V13 according to prior reports that go back several years now. The surprise will be if researchers now say it is M81. The frequency of V13 in Portugal and Galicia is about 5% and it has been attributed to "Greek" colonization by Portuguese historians based upon some fragmentry evidence that could easily be confused with Phoenician artifacts. People who live along the coast of Portugal from Viana do Castelo in the north to Lisbon in the south have traditionally believed these ports were established by mariners from the eastern Mediterranean. Vessel construction in the river areas is remarkably similar to that of Mesopotamia. I have a book published a few years ago where that point was made repeatedly. That doesn't make it so but the legend has been around for hundreds of years.

  29. Well, I wonder if this 5% of M81 in Galicia can be traced back to medieval slave trade and kidnapped people brought along from raids into ''Spania'', because both of these activities are well documented. I mean, there are a sizable number of documents where Moor serfs or prisoners are sold, or given away, or even freed. Just an example, a document from Santiago de Compostela, dated in 911; through it king Ordoño gave a number of serfs to the bishopric (my translation from Latin): ''(...)captured from among the Ismaelites: Froila; Leoderic also known as Abdela; Frorito also known as Abderahaman with his wife Maria and his daughter Guntina; Zahit; Zahim; Scahit; Zahaton; Iausar; Lallus; Melchi; Zahit; Alwit; Fare; Adosinda also known as Anna; Teodegundia also known as Anza; Carrataim; Belita; Rahama; Kerita; Aissima captured with her daughter. And others: Zahat, Eikar, Abdel, Gatel, Calaph, another Cahat, Alfarach, Abuzhat, Feta and Alzazath.” (a number of them had already received Christian/Germanic names). From the 9th to the 12th centuries other documents kept mentioning Moor serfs or Moor prisoners (Galician raids into the South were frequent during the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries), usually males, who would become Christians just in a pair of generation, later merging with the rest of the Galicians, as ''libertos'' or semi-free persons.

  30. The pattern of distribution of both E-V13 and E-M81 in Iberia is totally inconsistent with the Islamic conquest or anything of the like. Also E-V13 is very rare in North Africa, it cannot be considered Moorish at all: it is a very clear SW Balcanic marker, which probably spread in the Neolithic or maybe later in some cases, causing odd founder effects here and there that we can't explain because we simply don't have all the info on such still prehistoric period.

    See Adams 2008, the discussion by Dienekes and my own analysis here and here.

    I think that the arrival of E-V13 to Galicia is related to either the Neolithic colonization from (largely) SW Iberia (founder effect) and/or the Bronze Age exploitation of the tin mines. However I do not know of any such extreme concentration of E-V13 in Iberia (not anywhere above 8%) nor it is found isolated of other clades, notably its North African cousin E-M81, which is somewhat more common (but in the same areas largely).

    The only Iberian regions where E-V13 is more common than E-M81 (though both are still found) are Valencia and Balearic islands (excepted Ibiza). But I still fail to see any correlation with Britain's patterns, which I'd dare say have a continental European rather than Maritime origin.

    Check Brittany and NW France anyhow if anyone has data because those areas are at the origin of British Neolithic.

  31. Checking quickly, the frequency of V13 in Portugal has been reported, in rough chronological order, as follows:

    2004 by Flores - 6.4% in the north (n=109)

    2004 by Cruciani - 2.0% in the north (n=50) and 4.1% in the south(n=49), but he also found 4.1% of M78 and apparently didn't test them beyond that; hence, the actual percentage of V13 almost assuredly could approach double the reported figures.

    2006 by Beleza - 4.1% from north to south (n=109) and this is probably a better assessment of the country as a whole.

    2007 by Crucuani again- 4% in the north (n=50) and 4.08% in the south (n=49). This may be the same data he used in 2004.

    Now Adams in 2009, a dreadful paper given the conclusions reached, nevertheless provided this data of interest to Galicia; Fully 9% of of its male population as tested was M81. I don't think anything close to that relatively large number can be justified as having its origin in the invasion from Morocco by the "Moors" in the 8th century. Some of Galicia was overrun. It was held for only a short period of time by the invaders. Within one generation and a half it was completely free of Muslim penetration and remained so for the remainder of the reconquest effort. If that northern province (actually now a semi-autonomous region) of Spain is home to 9% of hap M81, it got there long before the "Moors" of 711 in my opinion.

    Adams also found 10% of E-M35* in the Asturias (out of 20people). That's a pretty high number for a haplogroup that arose probably 25,000 + years ago, before both M81 and M78.

  32. My guess would center on the Sarmatian Roman soldiers who were given land to cultivate after serving their twenty [?] years in a legion. They were often sent as far from their original homeland as possible --- in this case the Iranian genes would predominate --- and since the Roman camp at Chester in Cheshire was one of the largest in Britain, it was likely staffed with contingents of Sarmatians as a matter of policy. If they settled after service near their former camp, a large number of descendents---far larger than any random sampling---would obviously result.

    The other possibility would be the Egyptian anchorites who sailed west from their desert monasteries to Ireland in the third c. AD and b
    egan to prosyletize into Wales and the rest of the British Isle a few centuries later, after Patrick had converted the northern part of Hibernia.

    Finally, whoever built the megaliths all around the Mediterranean and then to parts as far north as Skye Brae [?] are simply a race of unknown origins. This could be a clue as to their starting point.

  33. Dave,

    The thing about the Anchorites is that we at least know that at least one of the "Irish" monks employed in Irish scriptoriums, wrote in the glyphs of a manuscript that he was from Egypt. My guess is that Coptic Christian monks fled Egypt due to the Islamic conquest, and some ended up in Ireland, as a result.

    Also, it should be noted that the Celtic Church had more in common with Orthodox Christianity, before Roman Christianity crushed it. From whence this Eastern rite influence??

  34. On M81 in Galicia, actually I wanted to put an accent not in the Arab invasion itself (Galicia was out of Arab rule by 750, and the Arab/Moor probably never had a real and solid control of the territory), but in the importation and capture of Moor serfs during the next centuries. These are well documented -but usually neglected!- activities from the 9th century onward, when Christian (or at least Galicians, Portuguese and Leonese) preyed on the rich Muslim South, Spania. Another example on this, an excerpt of a 12th century document from the monastery of Sobrado, in northern Galicia, called GENEALOGIA SARRACENORUM, containing the genealogy of some ten Moor slaves; in my translation: “(...) And this is the house of Mafumet the baker: Master Diego Vasques brought Pedruchi stonecutter, who begot Martin Porra, who before being baptised was known as Lupi, son of a woman known as Cornadessa. This Martin Porra married a Galician free woman, and in her he begot Maria Martin, and Peter, and John, and another little one (...)” This and another ten stories in a single document, with people being captured or bought in the South, later becoming non-free artisans and workers in Christian rural communities, marring local women, and having Christian sons whose names were indistinguishable from that of the rest of the population. These serfs (who become Christians, married Galician women, and had sons) MUST have had an impact in the local gene pool, and cannot be neglected. This really contrasts with the Aragonese/Catalan case, where Arabs or Moors under Christian control keep being Muslins who lived in Muslim communities, later being finally expelled to Africa in the 16-17th centuries, so having little opportunity to add to the gene pool of those peoples. Although I must recognise that 9% M81 is probably a too high figure for being just produced by slave trade and prisoners captured in war.
    Thanks, very informative.

  35. "but in the importation and capture of Moor serfs during the next centuries".

    Between the 8th and 11th centuries León (Asturias, Galicia) was a lesser state that typically paid tribute to Córdoba, which was a much more powerful state by far. When the "Reconquista" kicked on in the 11th century (because of the collapse of the Caliphate into lesser realms known as taifas), the situation reverted but by then it was not anymore León who set the tone among the Christian kingdoms of the North, but the newborn Kingdom of Castile.

    Even if there was the occasional slave, probably from Iberia, not North Africa (well beyond the reach of the Galicians then), the pattern of distribution of E1b-M81 in Iberia is simply inconsistent with the Muslim occupation. Otherwise we'd find a South to North and East to West gradation, as the Muslim influence was strongest in Andalusia and then in Zaragoza (also Denia, Valencia, Toledo...)

    This founder effect must be from an earlier period: either Paleolithic, Neolithic or maybe Bronze Age - when Galicia (incl. North Portugal) became an important mining destination because of their quite unique tin resources.

  36. Hello. Well, Galician and Portuguese 'reconquista' progressed pretty fast to the Douro, and by 878 Coimbra was captured, at at time when Castilian didn't control much beyond Burgos, Aragonese were pinpointed in the Pyrenees, and Catalonia was still what Catalans know today as Catalunya Vella. In fact the first massive expedition into the South in 798, under the direction of Alfonso II of Asturias, was a success, and Alfonso sent to Charlemagne treasure and Moorish slaves (“Hadefonsus rex Galleciae et Asturiae praedata Olisipona ultima Hispaniae civitate insignia victoriae suae loricas, mulos captivosque Mauros domno regi” in the Annales Regni Francorum.) During the 9th century Galicia and Portugal were refuge for several Muslim rebels, together with their families and followers, among them the Berber Mahmud ben Abd al Yabbar in 828, or Abd al-Rahman ben Marwan circa 875. During the first years of the 10th centuries Galician-Leonese-Portuguese armies reached and preyed on Évora in 913 and Mérida in 915, coming back with large number of prisoners. It was later during the Caliphate (929-1030) that the lands South of the Douro were briefly lost again to the Muslims.

    On the “occasional slave”, of Moorish/Muslim extraction in Galicia or Portugal, here are just some selected excerpts from local documents, so that anyone can judge:
    “...I give to you 50 serfs, of the ones we brought captives from the lands of the Ismaelites...” (King Alfonso III to Reccared bishop of Lugo, document from Lugo, N. Galicia, 897)
    “...This village of Freixo was given to us by our brother, together with three serfs, and these Moor women are called Mariam, Sahema and Zafara...” (Lady Trudildi to her husband Ewenand, doc. from Moreira, N. Portugal, 908)
    “In the name of God. I Goldregoto to you my serf Julia (…) whose parents were of the tribe of the Ismaelites and of Salomon...” (Lady Goldregoto to her servant Julia, document from Celanova, S. Galicia, 910)
    “...We give some serfs, whom we captured thanks to your holy intervention from among the people of the Ismaelites, named: Froila, Leoderic also known as Abdela, Frorito also known as Abderahamam with his wife Maria … (+30 more names)” (King Ordonio II to the bishopric of Santiago de Compostela, document from Compostela, W Galicia, 911)
    “...I give to you half (of what I have) in silver and in serfs, including those of Moorish origin...” (Count Guttier to his wife Hildware, document from Celanova, S. Galicia, 916);
    “ Salvador Rudesindez was Moorish and begot five children, Peter Salvadoriz, and Pelagius, and Ero, and Audesinda, and Osorio (...) Fees, a Moorish man from Monte Córdova, begot Santio Fees and Gemund Fees. Santio Fees begot Ferdinand Ardaga and all the sons of Ferdinand Ardaga....” (“Relation of shepherd bishop Rudesind established in Celanova for the service of the monastery”, S. Galicia, 10th century – note the name and patronymic of the first Moorish man, surely a converse which used the name of his master as patronymic.)
    “...We give to you these villages because you rescued our children, and you give for them a Moorish man of those sold at 300 solids each six ones...” (Citello to Lord Gundisalv, document from Northern Portugal, 1023)
    “ Genealogy of the Saracens of Saint Mary of Sobrado: brother Pelagius Ribeira brought from Portugal Ali stonecutter, and this Moorish man had a wife named Zamoran, and they begot sons and daughters (…) and this John Gateira is born from another Moorish man named Mohammed (…) Thomas prior to his baptism was called Gali, and Peter Gil, Papo, and John Gateira, Mosarichi (…) brother Menendo Vasques bought Ali Monk, weaver, whom after the baptism is called Lawrence (…) Of Mohammed, who was brought by abbot Martin, is born Peter Perez of Faro, called Negro, and he was known before being baptised as Oleias, and John Perez Ferra, who was known as Galafre, and Matthew, who was known as Zaquti (...)” (Etcetera. This is a very large document, from the monastery of Sobrado, N. Galicia, 12th century)

    Sorry for the extension.

  37. From the autosomal genetic results of Iberians it is obvious to me that the original North African Muslim invaders had some detectable effect on the genetics of Iberia that is still detectable today (because of the very large scale conversion of the once very large Muslim community of Iberia, who were already genetically predominantly descended from native Iberians BTW, to Christianity during the Reconquista).

  38. "The problem with a founder effect from a really old Welsh population (at the very least Celtic era if not older) is that one would expect more a clinal pattern at that age depth, instead of a gap from 30% E1b to 1% E1b in a fairly short geographic distance"

    Mountains and sword-based clinal variation.

    Mountains = live
    Valleys = die


Stay on topic. Be polite. Use facts and arguments. Be Brief. Do not post back to back comments in the same thread, unless you absolutely have to. Don't quote excessively. Google before you ask.