- Some mtDNA links between Europe and Asia
- Ancient mtDNA from Sampula population in Xinjiang
- mtDNA evidence for Caucasoid-Mongoloid admixture in Xinjiang 2,500 years ago
- mtDNA from Xinjiang
Early Eurasian migration traces in the Tarim Basin revealed by mtDNA polymorphisms
Yinqiu Cui et al.
Abstract
The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) polymorphisms of 58 samples from the Daheyan village located in the central Taklamakan Desert of the Tarim Basin were determined in this study. Among the 58 samples, 29 haplotypes belonging to 18 different haplogroups were analyzed. Almost all the mtDNAs belong to a subset of either the defined Western or Eastern Eurasian pool. Extensive Eastern Eurasian lineages exist in the Daheyan population in which Northern-prevalent haplogroups present higher frequencies. In the limited existing Western Eurasian lineages, two sub-haplogroups, U3 and X2, that are rare in Central Asia were found in this study, which may be indicative of the remnants of an early immigrant population from the Near East and Caucasus regions preserved only in the Tarim Basin. The presence of U3 in modern and archeological samples in the Tarim Basin suggests that the immigration took place earlier than 2,000 years ago and points to human continuity in this area, with at least one Western lineage originating from the Near East and Caucasus regions.
Link
The paper describes these haplogroups as Eurasian. Why load the discussion with a racist overtone by employing "Caucasoid" in the headline?
ReplyDelete@ terryt : "(R1a1/U2e) Fits Tocharian, doesn't it?" (from the r1a1 xiongnu thread)
ReplyDeleteI'd rather see r1a1 as Saka (and prior) and probably R1b1 (+ J2?, + G?) as Tocharians (maybe originally from the east Asia minor).
The oldest caucasoid mummies found are 1,800 BC in the EAST of Xinjiang (Loulan) but they could have been there (and even beyond) much earlier, as they apparently brought the bronze technology with them (bronze knives were found with the oldest mummies) and could possibly be related to this :
http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20090312-20338.html
I agree with Dienekes. Vincent, read the abstract carefully. It labels hgs U3 and X2 as Western Eurasian. Caucasoid is just another name for Western Eurasian (including Northern Africa). Whether you call it race or not, it exists as a separate entity.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Dienekes. Vincent, read the abstract carefully. It labels hgs U3 and X2 as Western Eurasian. Caucasoid is just another name for Western Eurasian (including Northern Africa).
ReplyDeleteI did read the abstract, which is how I recognized that Dienekes is maneuvering to insert a racial agenda where the authors didn't.
Clearly "Western Eurasian" doesn't mean the same thing as "caucasoid" to Dienekes, or he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of changing the synonym.
Clearly "Western Eurasian" doesn't mean the same thing as "caucasoid" to Dienekes, or he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of changing the synonym.
ReplyDeleteThat is ridiculous. You are declaring Dienekes racist because of his preference of a particular synonym which has racist connotations according to you.
You are declaring Dienekes racist because of his preference of a particular synonym which has racist connotations according to you.
ReplyDeleteI'm not declaring Dienekes anything.
I'm saying the words he chose to use are racially charged and inappropriate to the discussion about U3 and X2.
"Caucasoid" is not "racially charged" it is the name of a RACE.
ReplyDeletePlus, you did not speak about "racially charged" language but about "racist overtones".
If you think that "race" is an inappropriate topic, then you are in the wrong blog.
I'm not declaring Dienekes anything.
ReplyDeleteThese are your words:
"The paper describes these haplogroups as Eurasian. Why load the discussion with a racist overtone by employing "Caucasoid" in the headline?"
"I did read the abstract, which is how I recognized that Dienekes is maneuvering to insert a racial agenda where the authors didn't."
No comment from me.
I'm saying the words he chose to use are racially charged and inappropriate to the discussion about U3 and X2.
That is your opinion, not mine or Dienekes' it seems.
"Caucasoid" is not "racially charged" it is the name of a RACE.
ReplyDeletePlus, you did not speak about "racially charged" language but about "racist overtones".
If you think that "race" is an inappropriate topic, then you are in the wrong blog.
I totally agree.
If you think that "race" is an inappropriate topic, then you are in the wrong blog.
ReplyDeleteIf you think that "race" is determined by mtDNA haplogroup, then I probably am in the wrong place.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOk, I think the authors are right that the X2 came from the Near East...BUT, via Europe, where mtDNA diversity was much greater during the Bronze Age.
ReplyDeleteNote that both U3 and X2 (two cases) were found in the Corded Ware Eulau graves dated 4600Bp. So I bet that if they got some Y-DNA from some old bones in this area, it'd be R1a1, just like all the rest.
So, what we have here is more evidence of a clockwise migration starting in Anatolia during the Neolithic, around the Black Sea, and deep into Asia as far as modern day western China and northeastern Mongolia. The only question is, where's the R1b?
Polak says: "The only question is, where's the R1b?"
ReplyDeleteNot being with the farmer by Anatolia it was on West, as I have always said.
Try to think it was in Italy firstly as R1b1* till R1b1b2/L150+ but now gone out from East and West the Alps to North.
Hmm.
ReplyDeleteI always thought the corded ware grave in Elau contained R1a1, R1b and I2b individuals?
And counts, amoung other things, as proof for multi Y-DNA tribes 5.000 years ago.
First, if I remember well, R1bs were very few, and, of course, 5000YBP the R1b1b2s have already come out from Italy. My idea is that of a more ancientness of R1b1* etc. than it is thought usually. I have always spoken of the Younger Dryas as the time of the Italian refugium.
ReplyDeleteWell the mtDNA I found at Eulau was the "modal" at least for the HVR1 and is found in highest frequency in Ireland today. This is pretty easy to distinguish because most people have more than the 4 standard mutations. I highly doubt these people came from Europe. The Caucasus, Anatolia or elsewhere in West Asia are far more likely. The average families were not traveling thousands of miles across the world in a single generation for no apparent reason.
ReplyDeleteAaron, obviously they came from Europe, because they crossed the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas, not the deserts between Anatolia and The Tarim Basin. And the Caucasus theory is hilarious, considering that's the area where people hid from the Indo-Europeans.
ReplyDeleteGioiello, you need your head examined. All the best with that.
"Well the mtDNA I found at Eulau was the "modal" at least for the HVR1 and is found in highest frequency in Ireland today."
ReplyDeleteHmm, really?
About the Y-DNA I can remember that the Elau R1a1 is what you now find in northern Poland and some parts of Russia. And the Elau R1b is English today. Havnt read about where the I2b type is now found.
U3
ReplyDeleteCrete=7.9%
Lemnos=11.9%
Romani (Spain)=~36%
what this mean?
Romani people loved only U3 persons?
From the Wikipedia (sourced):
ReplyDeleteHaplogroup U3 (...) is found at low levels throughout Europe (about 1% of the population), the Near East (about 2.5% of the population), and Central Asia (1%). U3 is present at higher levels among populations in the Caucasus (about 6%) and among Lithuanian Romani, Polish Romani, and Spanish Romani populations (36-56%).
Most likely the Romani U3 is a founder effect that seems to have affected quite markedly all the North/West branch of this European ethnicity (unlike their Balcanic relatives, more diverse). Probably research would show very low diversity in Romani U3 (though I can't confirm this, of course).
X2 in turn is known to have also some Central Asian presence, notably in Altai. The existence of some subclades of this haplogroup among Native Americans surely attests that it has been around in Central/Northern Asia for quite a long time. In this case at least, without further downstream information, the presumption that it is "Caucasoid" seems somewhat unwarranted, though admittedly the highest diversity of the clade seems to be in West Eurasia nowadays.
U3
ReplyDeleteBosnians=0%
Herzegovinians=0%
Macedonians=2.1%
Macedonian Romani= 3.90%
Crete=7.9% (~320.000 people (mtDNA)….. ..~24.000 are Romani (greeks)?
Rhodes=11.9% (~80.000 people (mtDNA)…~10.000 are Romani (greeks)?
these mtDNA people have husbands, childrens, parents……
same, like
Spain Romani=36-50%
Macedonians=2.1%?
Ok, Roma people living in Macedonia,some are Christians,they are “not dark” like other Roma people,( probably they are mixed, but we do not know with whom Y-dna), they are Macedonians,but not “true Macedonians”….
They lost their (Roma) identity,but, Macedonians of them says :they are Masermangi (Mixed Roma)….
Like Basques in Spain…Basques are “Spanians”,but they are not “true Spanians”….
I think,that you understand me…
I talk about minorities ... that are hiden in “certain countries”.
U3 is “Roma mtDNA”… among Lithuanian Romani, Polish Romani, and Spanish Romani populations (36-56%).
Coincidence?
We don’t know who is “Great Mother U3” from Balkan.
But, we know that
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617141/
we know that Croatian Romani “have a single common ancestor who lived 45±10 generations ago (with a correction for back mutations), or 1125±250 years ago, between the 7th and 12th century AD. Obviously, the
Gypsies arrived in Europe earlier than can be called “the middle centuries” as was previously suggested” (Zhivotovsky et al, 2004).
DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome.
II. Walking the Map-Anatole A. Klyosov1
Hmmm….
between the 7th and 12th century AD….
“Slavs” (R1a) are “dead”…Underhil 2009…ancient R1a…..
Other Y DNA hg are” used”……long time before 7th centuty AD……
But, Gypsies arrived in Europe earlier than can be called “the middle centuries”…
between the 7th and 12th century AD….
People which arrived in that time went to Crete and other islands….
(though I can't confirm this, of course).
I do not see a comment for U3...
ReplyDeletehttp://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/greekmtdna/
U3 ancient was found in Germany,5.500bc...
hmmm....
U3 mystery or U3 misery?
whether the greek word for water=nero (only in greek language) arrives with U3 from India (Tamil neero=water)?
R1a is "from India",but R1a people (without U3) used word voda,bedu for water....
but,Tamil people dont have U3....
U3 mystery or U3 (hellenic) misery?
Polak says: “Gioiello, you need your head examined. All the best with that”.
ReplyDeleteOnce I asked for your address, and you didn’t reply. I have said many times that I don’t like who hides himself. I knew another Poland, who caused my banishment from “dna-forums”: Lawrence Mayka, with all my contempt.
Surely I don’t like Poles, nor their women full of holy water and brandy (in Italian is better: acquasanta/acquavite). Hope you are almost virile to stand by me with your name and your knowledge.
Note that U3 is a very old haplogroup (TMRCA more than 30,000 years) hand has its frequency and diversity peak in Western Asia.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vizachero.com/U3/U3MapHi.pdf
The Roma connection is definitely a red herring, as this haplgroup appears to have a wide and ancient spread.
I was just pointed to a dissertation (in Russian) that sampled two populations from Kabardino-Balkaria:
http://ibg.anrb.ru/BogotovaZI.pdf
U3 was present at significant frequencies in both populations.
VV
I have several friends who are Roma people...
ReplyDeleteOne of most popular Macedonian musicians is Romani....
Roma people are OK....
next case:
Bulgarian Romani are U3=36.0%
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1235543/
facts:
all human groups that have a high level of U3 in Europe..
we call them Romani
high level of U3 is detected in Greece....
who are these people?
"Greeks" certainly ..
100 years before Bulgaria and Greece were not neighbors...
Osman (Turkish) Empire between them.....
Bulgaria has almost 10% Romani population...
Roma people live throughout the Balkans, but not in Greece.
Greece has no Macedonians as me, but there are "Macedonians" from Pontius, the Caucasus, Kurdistan...
Vlachs?Muslims?..etc....
Macedonian Romani are U3=3.9%
but
Y-V13=30.0%
V13 is hellenic marker....
conclusion?
in the Balkans living various Romani groups......
Some Romani are U3, others are V13,croatian R1b...
many tribes....
U3 has been detected in LBK remains from Neolithic Europe, so its presence in the Balkans is not necessarily related to the Gypsies.
ReplyDeleteIt is not, of course. The opposite is probably true instead.
ReplyDeleteAnaveno is just throwing some sort of attacks... though it's very difficult to understand what he's rambling about. So far I have understood that he's a North Macedonian with some racist contempt against Greeks. Petty.
Woow,”pan-hellenic” attorney is here…
ReplyDeleteLBK..
you know ?
Basque mtDNA… while the prehistoric Basque populations were clearly differentiated…
What this mean?
Genetic attack over Basques?
North Macedonia is only in your mind…you are racist….
I don’t like..but…
North Basque? African French Basque?
Sahara=Euskara?
Ur,euri=urine?
shut up….
From LBK time…
The skeletal remains of these people…Evidence of their survival into the Bronze Age civilization of Crete is evident:
Early Minoan I bones from a rock shelter at Hagios Nikolaos (24 women) (are) described as being of pygmy dimensions (Bushman). ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=JMY1p0t_bHoC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=Early+Minoan+I+bones+from+a+rock+shelter+at+Hagios+Nikolaos+%2824+women%29+are+described+as+being+of+pygmy+dimensions+%28Bushman%29&source=bl&ots=T-lt6-mpBO&sig=6fx14LfB5Yd_PKkDYZH2Multn9I&hl=en&ei=_38gS8TlIIeBngfmytnWDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Early%20Minoan%20I%20bones%20from%20a%20rock%20shelter%20at%20Hagios%20Nikolaos%20(24%20women)%20are%20described%20as%20being%20of%20pygmy%20dimensions%20(Bushman)&f=false
Haplogroup T-M70 is a haplogroup that has been detected in
17.6% of Fulbe in Cameroon (21) and
Macedonia (Greece)= 1.8 ;
Athenians (Greece)= 4.3 (03)
Cretans in Lasithi Prefecture 8.7% ;
7.3% of Cretans in Oropedio Lasithiou (20)
Proof?
http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/greeknry/
Coincidence?
U3 (ancient) is found in Germany….
What this mean?
whether the Haak found “ancient German” or “ancient Roma (Gypsy)”?
Minoans were Pygmy-Bushman , but “we know” that “they are pure Greeks”.
I am not against the Greeks, I am only against forgeries in (their-others) history….
Roma (aka Gypsies) an European "ethnic" group?
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHARHARHARRAHAHRHRH...Cough cough COUGH Akk.. SPEW...
Wee gees,...
MAN... *@?&!""§
I nearly choked.
This is delirious.
This is why I read this blog.
Holy cows!!!
Better than science fiction!
They are an European ethnic group, you like it or not. They live in Europe (or mostly so), have been doing so for many many centuries now, and they clearly have a good deal of aboriginal European blood (if that matters at all).
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine why this would be matter of debate, much less "hilarious". Or aren't Quebecois (for example) an American ethnic group?
I read full paper just now, segment sequencing* of two X2 from this site here:
ReplyDelete1)
16145 16179 16183C
16189 16223
16274 16278 16344
2)
16145 16179 16183C
16189 16223
16228 16274 16278 16344
I find it seems hard to find its full matching haplotypes on genebase, any help?
http://www.genebase.com/resource/phylogeneticTree.php?view=mt
Caucazoid is certainly racist in implication. The Caucasian Mountains have many different colorings of people and have included Jews for thousands of years. They have serveral haplotypes of the J1 haplogroup. I suspect this is particularly true of the "Mountain Jews" of Russia/Georgia.
ReplyDelete"Caucazoid is certainly racist in implication"
ReplyDeleteRacialist. Racism is the belief that some races are superior to others, a biologically defined form of xenophobia (hatred of "the other"). Some people can understand that the use of race terminology is convenient for anthropological purposes while not spousing racism of any sort, just as descriptive terms.
Of course, many people who insist a lot in "the existence of races" on biological grounds often have some sort of hidden racist beliefs but in itself describing a group of people who are particularly akin to each other in genetic/phenotype terms such as Caucasoid or Mongoloid do not need to be racist in any way. I am totally anti-racist, I am reluctant to use the terms "race" or "subspecies" (I'd rather use "type" or "cluster" instead) but I will use terms such as Caucasoid when I think they are the best descriptive words available.
Interesting Abstract.
ReplyDeleteI have done my Hvr1 an Hvr2 mtDNA and my results are Haplogroup U3. I have tried to find what I can on my Haplogroup online but most of what I have found is rather vague to my understanding. (I am no Geneticist). I have traced my Maternal lineage to a 4th Great Grandmother who was born abt 1799-1803 in Co. Kerry, Ireland, her daughter, my 3rd Great Grandmother, was born in Co. Limerick, married, then came to Boston, MA, USA.
I would love to know more about Haplogroup U3.
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The comment thread has been 'interesting' to say the least. I don't understand all the related genetic jargon but have been doing my best to follow.