December 04, 2008

Age of Italian R1b Y-chromosomes (amended Jan. 5, 2009)

AMENDED Dec 5

Capelli et al. Mol Phylogenet Evol. 2007 Jul;44(1):228-39 have provided ASD values for R1*(xR1a1) in several Italian locations. In the Italian context, this most likely represents haplogroup R1b and indeed R-M269.

The authors write:
Microsatellite variation was investigated by the analysis of the following 10 microsatellites: DYS 388, 393, 392, 19, 390, 391, 389 I and II and 385—which is a double allele locus.

...

Y-STRs were used to estimate intra-haplogroup diversity. Locus DYS385 has a duplicated allele pattern that can not be resolved assigning each allele to the corresponding locus. We thus decided to exclude DYS385 from STR variance estimation. Similarly, to avoid double estimation of locus variation, repeat number at locus DYS389 II was calculated by subtracting the number of repeats at DSY389 I.
The average mutation rate over these loci is:

(0.00057+0.00075+0.00061+0.00168+0.00227+0.00351+0.00188+0.00226)/8 = 0.00169 using the Chandler (pdf) rates, or

(0.00057+0.00079+0.00045+0.00245+0.00237+0.00283+0.00237+0.00343)/8 = 0.00191 using the YHRD rates, and the Chandler rate for DYS 388.

In the following table, I list the estimated age using the above germline mutation rate. Note that both variance and ASD accumulate at near the germline mutation rate, and are associated with substantial confidence intervals.

Thus, I list age estimates both with a "standard" model (25 years/generation, germline rate), and my own preferred model (31.5 years/generation, 0.87*germline rate *). All ages are in thousands of years.

[begin amend] These authors use an average squared distance between all pairs of alleles as implemented in Microsat, rather than between alleles and a putative ancestral allele. Therefore the ages given below have been divided by 2, compared to the initial version of this post.




Chandler rates
YHRD rates



Standard Dienekes
Standard Dienekes
VLB
0.467 3.5 5
3.1 4.4
CTU
0.486 3.6 5.2
3.2 4.6
CMA
0.298 2.2 3.2
2 2.8
ELB
0.544 4 5.8
3.6 5.2
AMA
0.623 4.6 6.7
4.1 5.9
TLB
0.701 5.2 7.5
4.6 6.6
NEL
0.529 3.9 5.7
3.5 5
SLA
0.414 3.1 4.4
2.7 3.9
NWA
0.297 2.2 3.2
1.9 2.8
WCP
0.527 3.9 5.6
3.4 5
SAP
0.533 3.9 5.7
3.5 5.1
WCL
0.5 3.7 5.4
3.3 4.7

(Sample codes: AMA,
Apennine Marche; CMA, Central Marche; CTU, Central Tuscany; ELB, Elba Island (Tuscany); NEL, North–East Latium; NWA, North–West Apulia;
SAP, South Apulia; SLA, South Latium; TLB, Tuscany–Latium border; VLB, Val Badia (Alto Adige); WCL, West Calabria; WCP, West Campania.)


[end amend]

Furthermore, I calculated ASD from an ancestral haplotype (either modal or median: they coincide) for Anatolian data from Cinnioglu et al. Hum Genet (2004) 114 : 127–148. The ASD value over the same set of markers is 0.408 corresponding to an age estimate of 5.3-9.1kya using any set of assumptions.

Notice further that the value of 0.408 is inflated by the inclusion of R1*(xR1a1) chromosomes that may not be native to Anatolia, such as several R-M73 examples that are often found in Central Asia (Underhill et al. Nature Genetics 26 (2000)). Removal of only examples #442-443 which are conspicuous for having a rare DYS390=19 allele, 5 repeat units away from the modal, reduces the ASD even further to 0.327, and a corresponding age estimate to 4.3-7.3ky.

UPDATE (Dec 5)

[In the following, ASD is calculated from an ancestral haplotype]

The Cinnioglu et al. data for R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes give an ASD of 0.31, corresponding to an age of 4.1-6.6ky.

The data published in Bosch et al. (Annals of Human Genetics (2005) 69,1–30) for haplogroup R1b-P25 from the Balkans, give an ASD of 0.35 or an age of 4.6-7.7ky.

UPDATE II (Dec 5)

The data from Di Gaetano et al. European Journal of Human Genetics (2008) for Sicily have a variance of 0.36 using a set of markers that does not include DYS 388, but includes DYS439, which has a Chandler rate of 0.00530 and a YHRD rate of 0.00635, leading to an average rate of 0.00228 (according to Chandler) or 0.00264 (according to YHRD) or an age range of 3.4-4.9ky

Update (Jan 5, 2009)

[In the following, ASD is calculated from an ancestral haplotype]

Zalloua et al. have a sample of R1b Cypriot males with an ASD of 0.4 over the same markers as Capelli et al. This is virtually identical to the R1*(xR1a1) data for Anatolia. The age corresponds to 5.2-8.6ky.

Discussion

These results suggest that R-M269 diversity in Italy, the Balkans, Anatolia, and Cyprus is similar, making it difficult to trace the origin of this haplogroup on this basis; clearly more data is needed.

Tentatively, there are several reasons why a European rather than West Asian origin seems reasonable:

  1. R-M269 is more frequent in Europe than in Asia
  2. Both forms of R-M269, haplotypes Ht15 and Ht35 are present in Europe; the little Ht15 found in West Asia can be easily explained historically.
  3. The sister clade R1a is found at high frequency in Europe, and may have spread from here to the Eurasiatic steppes.
  4. Small-scale introduction of R1b in West Asia is more parsimonious than large-scale replacement of European Y-chromosomes by R1b chromosoomes, unaccompanied by other typically West Asian haplogroups such as J2, and presenting a cline with its maximum in the Atlantic

(*) As explained here

53 comments:

  1. The expansion of R1b looks more like a Neolithic thing more and more.

    Btw, I'll go with the Chandler.

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  2. So, what exactly does one make of this haplogroup R. Is it not the reality that nothing of significance ever happened in its vicinity? What is indigenous to its vicinity?

    One may argue the "Indo-European" language, but this language family is like the romance language, the profound influence of Romans and their latin language is clear. It has no genetic basis but rather a relic of the Aryan myth. How many europeans died because of this myth in world war II. What evil does such science enable, and how long will the truth be burdened by the oppressive constructed lies imposed by a so called "civilization" enthralled by their fortune can not accept their long existence at the periphery of history and must find precedence, inherent superiority and elusive permanence.

    Permanence was denied to Greater men of wiser souls, the stars must align as they will until the day when you loos PermanentLy. This is literally only the 15 minutes of fame for Nordic Europe, when this brief period is put on the human history scale, so why not embrace the wisdom of the ancients and truth of the prophets and embrace humanity and their heritage as one.

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  3. Hello,

    A humble request...

    Do you, by any chance, happen to know who Secret Dubai (the blogger: secretdubai.blogspot.com) is?

    http://whoissecretdubai.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  4. Afriqash,

    Haplogroups don't speak languages, cause wars, or look like anything.

    They just tell us about dep ancestry and population movements.

    Stick to that please.

    ReplyDelete
  5. No, you just have to worry about online Haplogroup Nazis.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Polak:

    If the expansion of R1b looks like a Neolithic thing then doesn't R1a also look Neolithic since they are both closely related?

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  7. Dear Pontikos,
    I thank you for having written “Age of Italian R1b Y-chromosome”, which recovers the paper of Capelli which I spoke about in my “Umbilicus mundi” on Rootsweb during the last year.
    I have always had the highest esteem of you (my positions were based on Capelli and I am now glad you appreciate him). I don’t fear smart persons, but idiots. In a letter to the unique Italian who wrote me in these circumstances (the others have all a pronounced scoliosis) I wrote: “ma Pontikos di fronte a loro è un signore”.
    I thank also Mr. Faux for having written on the forum I was banned from: “Perhaps, as Gioiello has long maintained (on this List and dna-forums), Italy holds the key to understanding the history of M269”.
    Hitler killed millions of Jews who died thinking to be the chosen people. I haven’t killed neither a fly in my life, but after me they live with many doubts, and this for them is the worst thing. If they loathe to be Etruscans or Romans, it is a problem of theirs, not mine. But for all this we pay.
    Coming to the merit of your post, I can say that the highest variance of R1b in Italy is in TLB, i.e. in the core of Etruscan presence, and we could think to an Anatolian/Etruscan admixture which would falsified the calculation. Also the reply of Vizachero about Rimini and Valmarecchia, with a higher variance in Valmaracchia, demonstrates that the variance is higher where the Etruscan presence is higher. But the 0.467 of VLB, ancient Rhaetian presence, should do we think not only to a recent Etruscan migration from Anatolia, but to the “ancient Italian” population, what I called Rhaetian-Etruscan fatherland. I am glad you have hypothesized that Low Balkans and Anatolia can have received their R1b from the Italian refugium and not the contrary. And if “decodeme”, in the autosomal test, has three Italian groups (Italians, Sardinians, Tuscans), I think this does mean something.
    With the highest esteem and the best wishes, Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2/S136+. K1a1b1.
    Post Scriptum: The last words of Vizachero: "The idea that Italy might have been a conduit for the entry of some R-
    M269 into Europe from southeastern Europe and/or southwestern Asia
    would be hard to reject formally, and my sense is that most people on
    this list people would accept it as a reasonable hypothesis".
    I had never supported anything different. The answer will come from aDNA.

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  8. Gioiello, there are many legend in centre of Italy about people came from est. Don't you think that they was really few individuals and they formed an aristocracy mixed with the preceding Villanovian? Don't you think you that in reality Villanovians, Rethis and Liguris were protoceltics people ?

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  9. Unfortunately I can't express my thinking, being "Rootsweb" and "dna-forums" closed to me, but I have said many times in the past:
    1) that Etruscans (at least the upper class) arrived to Italy from Aegean Sea or Anatolia, as Herodotus said, but they were superimposed over a previous people, I think the most ancient Italians I call Rhaetians and certainly the recent Indo-European Osco-Umbrians. Villanovians, having archelogical proofs before this arrival of Etruscans, were either Rhaetians or Rhaetians mixed with Osco-Umbrians;
    2) I said many times that Celts probably arose in Italy both as hg. R1b1b2-U152+ and as Celt language. The most ancient Celt languages in the world are Lepontian and the recent deciphered "Stele di Novilara" as ancient Celt;
    3) certainly R1b1b2 arrived from Balkans or Asia Minor, but I think in a time more ancient than Vizachero thinks. I think at the Younger Dryas time, when they wintered, with other hgs., at the feet of the Alpine region;
    4) certainly other hgs. arrived to Italy in the Neolithic from Balkans (hg. J2 etc.), but in a previous time than many think (see the papers of Capelli).
    In the first Millennium BC Italy was one of the most peopled land in Europe and in the world. This explain the Etruscan civilization and the Roman conquest. No one can dominate the world without population. For this I think that Europeans come mostly from Italy, either in Mesolithic or from Roman Empire.

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  10. Gioiello, ciao

    you mention that the Stele of Novilara was recently decyphered. Would you be so kind and provide details or a weblink where I can find extra info?

    Many thanks

    R

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  11. I reply to you as you are a person "cogitans" among many men (if they are men) not only not "cogitans" but perhaps neither "sapiens". I read a paper on this in "La parola del passato", but I haven't the review I consulted in the Library of the "Scuola Normale Superiore" of Pisa. But if you search for the last number of this review, you'll be able to find easily what you desire.

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  12. The last discover ov Vincent Vizachero:"Within Italy, at least, G2a has a higher STR variance than R1b1b2 which leads me to wonder G2a might represent a pre-Neolithic lineage".
    There are some years I affirmed that hg.G was present in the Italian Refugium from at least the Younger Dryas: see the ancient and deep rooted presence in Sardinia. The same I wrote to some Calabrian whom someone tried to convince he was of Phoenician or Jewish extraction. Thank you, Vizachero. Also this time you do arrive first!

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  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. Gioiello:

    It does not take size, but takes drive and the need to dominate. Size hardly explains englands dominance in the recent past, the subjugation of others peoples in the british isles could have better for told its eventual brief dominance. How does one explain the lack of diversity in languages for example in britian or france? The process of state-formation in these lands was through an inspired and extraordinary savagery, violence and oppression and when the state-formation was successful it often unleashed onto other parts of the world that brutality, the mongols are an example outside of europe, the bestkept secret is that these brutal volcanic eruptions never last, so the mongols withered away, but rome recieve some reprieve through the usurption and nationalization of the christian religion and the institution of the papacy. However, the Nordic or tuetonic tribes, whatever term you might want to call cold europe, that rome had tamed, shaped and dominated eventually through off the yoke and emerged as the leaders of a new world order and civilization that is now called western civilization. Southern Europe (Mediterranean) are tolerated members for the historic precedence they provide to the ruling nordic elite. The process appropriating to super nordic race, which eventually may become reduced to anglo-saxon, then english simple and methodical the result being e.g. Sanskrit without the hindu, Greek "Miracle" without Greeks, Egypt without the Africans, Rome without the romans... And so I find amusing when I see the Greek guy who runs this blog fighting the idea that alpine races etc., caused the decay of Nordic Greece...Its amusing to see a grown man whine "no please we are all caucasian, we are all white, look I want to be part of your constructed lies but please dont strip me of all my clothes leave me with some belongings lol" He then dares to name himself Dienekes, a true spartans would have said Molon Labe, but I guess the greek retain little of their fierce republican spirit, even if they still have substantial e1b1b.

    Polak,

    Haplogroups do speak languages, Atleast one family the Afro-asiatic languages can be traced to a haplogroup with definite precision. Although I agree there is nothing precise about language classifications, at times it does seem like a hopeless mix, there are better ways to classify languages.

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  15. Its amusing to see a grown man whine "no please we are all caucasian, we are all white, look I want to be part of your constructed lies but please dont strip me of all my clothes leave me with some belongings lol" He then dares to name himself Dienekes, a true spartans would have said Molon Labe

    Are you having hallucinations?

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  16. Gioiello
    It can't be denied that Italy was already very populated before the XI-XII B.C.
    The culture of Villanova was wide on the whole peninsula in homogeneous way, I believe because they was shepherds and lived still as nomads. Only whenin the south arrived the Greek influence and in Tuscany other Orientals, looking for iron, they were differentiated regionally, in the people that we know in historical age.It is also impossible that a powerful nation as that Etruscan is formed suddenly, in few years, It is evolved for centuries before affirming it. The Romans also said that the Rethians were Etruscans, because they noticed the use of a similar language. We can say better that they were Villanovians, as they were the Tuscans before becoming Etruscans.. We know how the Etruscan cities were formed by the union of villanovian villages. This way I think that your hypotheses are founded.

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  17. DegoRed, I agree completely with you. I spoke many times on this on Rootsweb and on "dna-forums" when those forums were opened to me.
    The only doubt I had it is the link between Etruscans and Rhaetians, being this language very different from the former. I hypothesized a remote link and non recent and this needs of other hypotheses I did on those forums.

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  18. Dear Antigonos, you said some interesting things. Unfortunately you quoted books and ideas of a half century ago. To-day of course something has changed. I think that the better book on Etruscans is “The ethnicity of the Sea Peoples” of Woudhuyzen.
    I think that nobody deny that the Etruscan upper class came from the Aegean Sea, carrying the Etruscan language and many cultural characteristics. But they found in Italy a previous population, giving life to the Etruscan dodecapolis. It is demonstrated that also the historical Etruscan upper class was a mix of Etruscans and Italics (see De Simone) and that also the Roman families were often of Etruscan/Italics extraction /se: Schultz, Zur Lateinischen und Etruskischen Eigennamen). Then it is wrong to say that Etruscan “were destroyed by Roman conquest”. These Etruscans/Italics were about 600,000 at the mid of the first Millennium BC, probably more than all Germanic peoples at that time.
    That Rhaetians were “northern Etruscans”is unproved, being the Rhaetian an Etruscan-looking language, but very different from Etruscan. I Think nobody believes to-day that Etruscans were pushed to North from Celt invasion. That Ladin and Rhaeto-Rumantsch are a mix of Latin and Etruscan I think you are the unique in the world to think so. That the Etruscan uopper class has left a genetic heritage in to-day Tuscan population is likable: see the mtDNA hg. U , which Dienekes speaks about in this forum. See the presence in Tuscany of mtDNA R0a, found in Murlo, Volterra, Casentino, and that I found in Santa Maria a Monte, different from those, but like that of a famous artist born in Istanbul I spoke about in “dna-forums”.
    That after the fall of Constantinople the few Byzantine scholars who came to Italy have had a genetic impact to Italy is ridiculous. Probably we must investigate a possible genetic impact of the Byzantine world on the Italian zones which were linked to Byzantium for many centuries: Venice, the “Romagna”, South Italy. But probably there was also an Italian impact to Byzantium: see the people of many zones of the to-day Greece which have a genetic North-Italian heritage (the unique R1b1b10 in Greece (Mertzanis) is probably of North-Italian descent) and the diffused presence in Crete and in other Greek islands.

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  19. The Romans didn't destroy the Etruschis, they was quickly assimilated, but many famous men of the Roman history, after the conquest, are of Etruscan origin as the poet Virgil, the adviser of Augustus, Maecenas or that of Tiberius, Seiano.
    The Etruscan culture is developed during the centuries, from the last age of the bronze and the beginning of the age of the iron, from the meeting between oriental merchants and the inhabitants of the place. The presence of the iron and its workmanship was the motive for this development. It gave birth to an original culture, with local elements and oriental influences ,far from the italic customs, for this the Etruscan language and that of the Rethians appeared to the Romans similar, but distant too: Titus Livius wrote that the Rethians were of etruscan origin they had maintained that language that however it was corrupt. I think instead that
    the Rethians was a poor and archaic language, in comparison to the Etruscan, fruit of a development social complex and strongly influenced from foreigner elements. Livius described the Rethians as a wild people, busy in the breeding of animals and in the brigandage. An archaic type of life, very different from that of the Etruscans.
    But as I have already written, all the Etruscans cities are built on Villanovian villages . As Gioiello says the oriental element, the merchants of the Aegean sea slowly went to form the upper class of a new people, with one original identity of his. The social structure Etrusca was formed from a narrow upper class that governed a wide mass of farmers and workers (Legend say Tarquinius father was a Greek). however I think the lowest class didn't speak the same language of the aristocracy and for this was easily assimilated then by the Romans. All the other italic languages have strongly influenced the official Latin and they survive in the dialects, only the Tuscan doesn't have anything of the ancient Etruscan. We lost also their real name, "Rasenna" (Etruscans is the name given to them by the Romans).

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  20. When Dienekes writes: “It is also noteworthy that it is precisely in the Atlantic periphery that farming arrived last, so these populations remained in small
    numbers for a much longer period of time”, it seems he gives reason to the Felix’ proposal of the Zhivotovsky theory and revalues the Cantabrian Refugium theory. But all the critics against this theory remain: 1) the lack in Spain of all the most ancient subclades of R1b1b2 present in Italy; 2) the recent origin in Spain (or better during the travel from Italy) of R-M153 and R-M167
    ,not diffused in Europe. For these reasons I think that the theory of an Italian refugium, during the Younger Dryas, remains the most plausible.

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  21. The link among the Pisan consul Alzopardo of 12th century and the Maltese Azzopardi is probably the Pisan merchant “Giovanni Assopardo” (B. Casini, I fuochi di Pisa e la prestanza del 1407), documented in many “lettere di credito” (see Frangioni 1994, p. 527, n. 751).He had also contact with Barcelona. His surname has the variances “Asopardo”. We can hypothesize that he was one of the Pisans who left Pisa after the Florentine conquest and that he has descendents in Spain (all the present “Asopardo”) and that some of them migrated to Malta with the surname “Azzopardo”, which is the original form from “Alzopardo”, being “Assopardo” a Pisan pronunciation. That the Maltese “Azzopardi” (the –i being the genitival form of the Italian patronymics) have in their coats of arms a climbing “pardus”, as the original meaning of the name, demonstrates, I think, that the family had from ancient time the coats of arms. Then no Jews, but Pisans.

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  22. Very strange Gioiello, the Maltese Azzopardi family seems sure of their jewsh origin, but they show their blason with the leopard image and, of course, it has nothing to do with the meaning "a safardi" how they explain the origin of the name of their family.

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  23. DagoRed, in Italian (Pisan dialect)we say:"Se ne dice tante!" I have a 23% of Ashkenazi genes, and I have at least 1 million Tuscan ancestors in these last centuries! I found also the documents which prove that Giovanni Assopardo and his son Niccolò left probably Italy during the 1419 and I suppose they went to Spain (or Catalunya). As there are many Azzopardi in Malta and in UK (many hundreds), I think it would be interesting a YDNA test.

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  24. “Italian (Sicily) and Maltese: ethnic name for a person of African descent or occupational name for a mercenary soldier, from medieval Greek atsoupas, plural atsoupades ‘black’, ‘person from Mauritania’, or ‘mercenary soldier’. The word probably derives ultimately from Old Persian takhma spada ‘army’, modern Persian sipah ‘army’” (from Ancestry_com).
    Who is the genealogist who wrote this etymology of the surname “Azzopardi”? I never saw so much madness in so few lines!

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  25. From Mauritania? The land of Moors, I suppose: lol!

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  26. I remember now. "Mauri" is the name the Romans gave to a berber tribe of the nowdays Algeria. Nothing to see with the State of Mauritania. I have read often in some novel about "mauri slaves" like men from black Africa. These are the mistakes of a superficial linguistic association.

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  27. DagoRed,

    The word Mauri u point out is what the romans called the berbers. What if I told u that the Arabs knew the cushtic peoples of the Northeast Africa i.e. Somalis, Beja, Afars as berber? The application of the term to the natives in the north africa is not a misnomer, in that they are related both genetically and linguistically to the cushitic peoples and their is nothing superficial about that. Infact, those suffering from recaltirant superficiality are the so called academia that are blinded by pigmentation not to see any reality beyond it.

    Now coming back to the Mauri, if we ignore the neat compartmentaliztion of languages is probably related to the cushtic word Murr, which is means dark- ranging from pitch black to the color of the myrrh, here is another word Myrrh in cushtic is also Murr, I hope u have seen the color of Myrrh its close to the hue that are used to represent ancient egyptians, puntites, and to a lesser extent the kushites. Take for example the arabic word Sa-MaRRa, like the capital of Eritrea, asMaRRa which is basically a different grammatical form the previous word, this semetic words also means essentially dark, the arabic word for sumerian civilization is Ras Samra= the blackheaded....I think u can see what I am getting at. My point is that Mauri might as well be Asmara, as the main port of berbera is the remnant of the berbers which was the term originially for cushtic peoples of the horn in particular the coastal regions. In other words if u know the diverse nature of the african populous u would know Mauri describes Africans in their range of hues. The word moor was used for all muslims by for example the portuguese.

    Lastly, ur talk of black slaves suggest that u lack history of northwest africa history the slaves their were predominantly europeans which did contribute to the lightning of North, while essentially maintaining there lineage y haplo M81 being maintained at 80%.

    Now if the the mediterranean people of europe develop enough spine to embrace their full heritage u will be more line with the ancients whose civilization and even their ancestry to this day partly cushtic. The ancients of greece like other civilizations older and younger than them revered the cushtics or ethiopians, I dont need to qoute passages here I am sure.

    PS would it not be nice to classify languages,as fluid as it is, according to their relative age and influence on each other? For example Latin and how it enriched languages in europe, rather than claiming some common descent.

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  28. One more thing, if ur not familiar the horn and northeast coast of Africa, look at any map and follow the african coast on the red sea down u will find asmara and berbera.

    I mentioned that medieval arabs knew the region in the horn and northeast coast of africa as berberia and its people as berbers, not the region northwest of the nile. You can also find similar designation in the periplus of erythrean sea. Here is a link to one of its translators.

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  29. http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-23-2005-75321.asp

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  30. Has anyone the paper?

    NEANDERTHALS, ANATOMICALLY MODERN HUMANS, AND 'MODERN HUMAN BEHAVIOUR' IN ITALY
    SARAH MILLIKEN
    Traditionally, accounts of the Middle–Upper Palaeolithic transition focus almost exclusively on the evidence from south-western Europe. Interpretations based on data from this area are then generalized to produce a relatively uncomplicated pan-European model, with the appearance of novel technologies, new patterns of land use, expanded social networks, and the emergence of complex forms of symbolic communication involving art and personal ornaments, all pointing to the appearance of 'modern human behaviour' in Europe about 40,000 years ago. This paper presents an impartial review of the important but often neglected evidence from Italy, and shows that models positing a single spatiotemporal origin for 'modern human behaviour' are too simplistic.(Oxford Journal of Archaeology (2007))

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  31. Vizachero writes: "By way of example, intraclade variance using pedigree rates yields a
    pretty decent estimate for the TMRCA of R1b1b2a1 because this clade
    appears to have enjoyed robust population growth, in a large area,
    with no severe bottlenecks for its entire history On the other hand,
    if you wanted to estimate the TMRCA of R1b1b using intraclade variance
    you'd probably underestimate the actual TMRCA by a substantial
    amount. In fact, you'd probably get an estimate not much older than
    the TMRCA of R1b1b2a1 even though the R1b1b nodeman lived 2x or 3x
    further back in time".
    Ca suffice, disont les Francais.
    I'd correct: R1b1b2. R1b1b2, with its cumulated 5 SNPs, suffered
    a strong bottleneck, as recently also Gary Felix said.

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  32. Dacia, after the Roman conquest of Emperor Traianus, born in Hispania at Italica from an Italic family, were peopled by Italics and people from the Rhine Valley of Celt-Roman extraction. This explains the Rumanian language at 90% from Latin and why I found some closest to me, R1b1b2-S136+, among the Aromunians.
    Mitosearch FTQGA N1b ( 145A, 176G, 223T, 244A, 390A, 519C) from Italy matches XN7UT from Krania, Trikala, Greece: She was Vlach. She was speaking a Latin dialect.

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  33. Because the Ashkenazi N1b comes from the Italian refugium:
    N1: T152C G1598A C1703T C2639T C3921A C4960T G5471A C8472T A8836G C9335G A11362G T12297C A12822G G16145A C16176G G16390A
    FJ460561 (Tunisia : from Italy) : T195C T16126C G16176A
    EU742161 (Ashkenazi) : C4735A A4917G T9335C G11362A A11928G C12092T C12297T C13129T A13710G T14581C C16176A
    EF661011 (Italy) : T310C C4904T T14470C
    EF660993 (Italy) : G185A A188G 3571.C A8261G C8410T C12297T A14053G T15813G G16129A C16291T T16297C
    EU742153 (Ashkenazi) : C4904T T9230C T9335C C9882T C12297T T13608C G15043A G15883A A16390G

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  34. Last Vizachero's words: "The R1 MRCA most likely lived in southwest Asia somewhere, though
    southeastern Europe and Central Asia would be hard to rule out".

    ReplyDelete
  35. Vizachero writes: “ht15 is most commonly found in western European R1b1c, and most likely represents a mesolithic or neolithic population expansion in western Europe”. What did happen? Now is there the possibility it is “Mesolithic”?
    Vizachero writes: “ht35, the parent haplotype of ht25 (sic!), is most commonly found in southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia. It most likely represents a post-glacial expansion in the Near East. Elevated levels of ht35 have also been observed among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations”. Yes, because those Jews are of European ancestry, like pretty all their mtDNA.

    Vizachero writes: “The two guys (Lanza and Crenson)in A1 (who are L23- and L49-) both have DYS426=11, while no one in A2, A3, or A4 have that result. As a consequence, I think that we can expect that most members of the project with DYS426=11 will eventually fall into that L23- L49- camp. Both members of the A1
    group also have DYF411=9,11”. I gave twice on “dna-forums” the genealogy of DYF411, with a RECloh DYF411=11,11, and this is one of the strongest proof of an Italian refugium.

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  36. I think we should search for R1b1b2/ht35 (descendants of the Italian ones in the British Isles: ancient Celt surnames) also among those with DYS363=13 or 14. See Y search:ASEN5, DVRQQ, FBFBM, J6EZX, JHJ2N, R6UDT, W8NXE, who match closely the Italian 9S8HR, from Valperca (Piemonte). Those tested have DYS461=11.

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  37. Genebase in Learn about Y-DNA Haplogroup R writes: “Evidence point to a refugium found in the Iberian Peninsula – likely in the Franco-Cantabrian region. Additional reports suggest the possibility of refuges in South East Europe around the Aegean Sea and in the Italian Peninsula”
    For what can value, Adam Moft writes on Rootsweb: “In DNAtribes.com ashkenazi autosomal profile is closest to Italians then Russians, not to Arabs or middle easterners. Ashkenazim are not even related to Sephardim”.

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  38. All these predictions of origin points for haplogroups are totally based on frequency of the haplogroup during the last decade of the 20th century and into this century. The frequencies could have been totally different 10,000 years ago and 20,000 years ago and so on. R1b was at one time wholly based in Asia and not in Europe at all.
    I suggest you read about the Extinction of Surnames, which sort of parallels Y chromosome haplogroups. Many surnames are extinct within 5 generations, with others only possessed by a single family or maybe two, and one surname held by a majority of people. Haplogroups in Europe 10,000 years ago were probably a lot more varied, that is many are now extinct, and R1b was just one of the existing haplogroups. In the last 10,000 years R1b has become as common as muck in Western Europe like as J1, M267 has in the Near East. It is the luck of the draw as to which men father male offspring who in turn father male offspring. Less than half of the men in every generation father male offspring, so their surnames and haplogroups die out.
    Most of these haplogroup studies are a waste of time and money.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Wellcome, Ponto, we all banned from "dna-forums" and "Rootsweb". They are I1a: that AIDS is right!
    What you are saying is known and it isn't absurd: Italy has 350,000 surnames, as they are recent, China, with 30 folded population, has less, as their surnames are thousands of years older. But my analysis is based on many data, not only on what you are saying. The result will be done from aDNA.

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  40. Vizachero writes:"Still no update from Brian Kemp's project, but I do want to call
    attention to a set of new markers offered by FTDNA. These five new
    SNPs (L23, L49, L50, L51, L52) are aggregated in a panel (called "R-
    M269") and constitute an excellent test for R1b1b2 folks who are P312-
    U106-. The SNPs represent a good test of the entire known R1b1b2
    phylogeny upstream of P312 and U106, at what I think is a very
    reasonable price".

    Yesterday he thought my S136/L50 (I am for now the only +) was only a private SNP!

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  41. Re my theory that the most ancient "Celts" of the British Isles come from Italy:
    look at Ysearch CAJZT (Marcelli fromn Italy) and NAWXY (Ramsey from Ireland). The origin could be also from Roman time, as many other similar hgs.

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  42. Pinzochero never changes his spots!
    In a posting of his on Rootsweb he says, after the 23andME of Mainenti (an Italian from the Italian Lake’s District I called the “Italian Refugium”!), he counts 18 SNPs from R1 to R-P312; but the SNPs are much more: he forgets the homologous (and also not homologous) ones, apart my L50/S136, he considers “private”, but FTDNA is testing too.

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  43. Dear Ricardo, If we must understand something from this data, it seems that Daghestan is the land of origin of J1, but Tyrol (Italy: Rhaetian -Etruscan region) is the most ancient in West-Europe which retains the most ancient settlements of J1.Then the Italian J1 could date to which is for me the “Italian Refugium”. That R1b1b2 dominated in West Europe could be due to other factors, which Rokus01 has spoken largely about.

    Haplogroup Region/population N DYS458 Alleles
    J1-M267 Albania 1 17.2
    J1-M267 Greece 6 17.2 18.2 19.2 22.2
    J1-M267 Macedonia 1 19.2
    J1-M267 Italy, Sicily 8 18.2 19.2 20.2
    J1-M267 Algeria 23 18.2 19.2
    J1-M267 Daghestan, (Mjews,Tats,Tabasaran)39 17.2 18.2 19.2 20.2 21.2 22.2
    J1-M267 Italy, Emilia Romagna 2 17.2 19.2
    J1-M267 Ethiopia, Amhara 10 17.2 18.2 19.2 20.2 21.2
    J1-M267 Ethiopia, Orhomo 5 17.2 18.2 19.2
    J1-M267 Italy, Marches 7 17.2 18.2 19.2
    N.T. – S. Malaysia 2 19.2 20.2
    N.T. – S. India 4 18.2 19.2 21.2
    N.T. Tunisia, Berber 14 17.2 18.2
    F* (xK) Austria, Tirol 3 15.2 19.2 20.2
    N.T. Caucasian Y-Filer databases 7 15.2 16.2 17.2

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  44. Thank you, my friend, for the well-timed communication. If it is true that R1b-ht35 comes from Asia, the Italian presence is massive and the mutations are to North/ North-West. I think my theory come out strengthened.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Pinzochero says: “I'll have more to say soon (I hope) about the geographic distribution of these four groups, but on the basis of preliminary results it
    appears that most R1b1b2 in the Near East will be of the R1b1b2* and
    R1b1b2a* varieties. It also appears that R1b1b2a1a* becomes more
    common as one moves northwest through Europe.”
    Why doesn’t he say that Italy is the origin of all European R1b1b2?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Many thanks, Stevo, for having posted “Genetic Structure of the Bashkir Subpopulation of Russia”. A few remarks:
    1) R269 is of Late Paleolithic (Verhnii Paleolit), and not so recent as Pinzochero and his Jewish friends claim;
    2) The dispersion happened from Asia through Urals, and not from Near East;
    3) A “nest” was in the Balkans (I always hope in the “Epigravettian Italian Refugium: Italy and Balkans’ shore”;
    4) Bashkyrian mtDNA has many European haplogroups, then probably there was a back migration from Europe to Urals and Central Asia;
    5) What we shall see is if there are in the Urals and Central Asia all the subclades of R-269, which probably was born in Europe.

    Gioiello

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  47. THE PINZOCHERO'S MASTERPIECE

    It's been a busy month for the R-ht35 project, with lots of new
    members and lots of new results.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

    The project now has over 100 members, 62 of which have tested either
    all of the available SNPs or enough of them to get a definitive
    haplogroup assignment. This project is for everyone in R1b1b2 who is
    negative for both P312 and U106. Within that group, we now are able
    to sub-divide members into four groups. In this email, and on our
    results page, I call them A1, A2, A3, and A4. The SNP markers for
    each group are:

    A1 is M269+ L23- L51- L11- (same as ISOGG R1b1b2*)
    A2 is M269+ L23+ L51- L11- (same as ISOGG R1b1b2a*)
    A3 is M269+ L23+ L51+ L11- (same as ISOGG R1b1b2a1*)
    A4 is M269+ L23+ L51+ L11+ (same as ISOGG R1b1b2a1a*)

    Additionally, you will see on our Y results page several additional
    categories for people who are not yet fully resolved either because
    they have not received all the results they've ordered or haven't
    ordered sufficient testing.

    Anyway, the majority of our fully-resolved members fall into the first
    two groups:

    A1 = 10 members (16%)
    A2 = 28 members (45%)
    A3 = 7 members (11%)
    A4 = 17 members (27%)

    Despite our growth, we don't yet have enough folks with both known
    geographic origins and full SNP results to get as much granularity as
    I'd like. But I feel comfortable creating two splits. For the
    phylogenetic split, I group A1 and A2 together (L51-) and A3 and A4
    together (L51+). For the geographic split, I made three categories:
    NW European, Jewish, and SEE/SWA. The "Jewish" group simply holds all
    the members of the R-ht35 project who are also members of Sean
    Silver's Jewish R1b Project. The SEE/SWA (southeast Europe/southwest
    Asia) group hold non-Jewish members from Algeria, Armenia, Bulgaria,
    India, Iran, Italy, Kazakhstan, Turkey, and United Arab Emirates.
    Also, NW Europe is not just northwest Europe but rather
    Europe(xsoutheast Europe): it includes Germany, Poland, and
    Switzerland as well as the nations we'd normally think of as NW Europe.

    So, if you are trying to visualize what I'm getting at I have
    effectively made a 3x2 matrix. So six groupings, with a total of 50
    people:

    NW Europe L51-: (n=8)
    NW Europe L51+: (n=13)
    Jewish L51-: (n=8)
    Jewish L51+: (n=0)
    SEE/SWA L51-: (n=19)
    SEE/SWA L51+: (n=2)

    Put another way, 90% of our SEE/SWA members are L51-. 62% of our NW
    European members are in groups L51+. 100% of our Jewish members are
    L51-. There are, of course, many Jewish R1b1b2 men are L51+ but they
    tend to be P312+ or U106+ and thus outside the scope of the R-ht35
    project.

    Group A1, in particular, shows a strong bias towards SE Europe and SW
    Asia: to date no member of our project in that group falls into my
    "NW Europe" category. From prior analysis, it appears that R1b1b2
    moved north and west into Europe quite rapidly. And the data we are
    seeing in our project are consistent with that: the oldest forms of
    R1b1b2 are found at high frequency in the "homeland" of SW Asia and
    places with the most contact with that region. The closer we get to NW
    Europe, the more we observe the youngest, derived forms of R1b1b2.

    The R1b1b2 we see in Arabian, Persian, and Jewish members of our
    project appears to be entirely indigenous to these populations and not
    the result of recent migrations or intermarriage. This, alone, I
    think is a revolutionary finding.

    One other item of note is that the modal haplotype for our A4 (L11+
    P312- U106-) members is (at 12 markers) perfectly co-incident with the
    Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH). This is one of the reasons I
    think R-P312 and R-U106 arose in quite rapid succession. Our two SEE/
    SWA L51+ members are both L11+ also: one from Italy, and the other
    from Armenia.

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  48. After that Mr Mayka made me to ban from “dna-forums”, I would have had to ignore him, but his ignorance is bottomless. Now he is trying to annex Hg. R2 to Jewish ancestry and he found on SMGF some R2s, one of them Italian I extracted from SMGF and put on Ysearch. Now he found that a “Jew” “has 2 neighbors listed, one Italian and one more distant Portuguese”. The Italian is my Scaccia and the “distant Portuguese” is a Brazilian named “Vassallo”. Mr Mayka, with his abysmal ignorance, doesn’t know that Vassallo is an Italian surname and to find it in Brazil isn’t strange, being there 30,000,000 of persons of Italian extraction. Then not an Italian and a distant Portuguese, but two Italians. Which is their ancient ancestry I don’t know, but for now: 2 to 0.

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  49. The surname of the Brazilian of Italian extraction is really Varallo and you can find him on Ysearch: 558P7. Probably his Italian ancestor was born in Marsicovetere (Potenza) in 1798 and his Brazilian descendants lived in Uruguaiana (Rio Grande do Sul).

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  50. What has happened? This is what Pinzochero writes on his “ht35 project”:

    ht15 is most commonly found in western European R1b1b2, and most likely represents a mesolithic or neolithic population expansion in western Europe.

    ht35, the parent haplotype of ht25 (sic!), is most commonly found in southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia. It most likely represents a post-glacial expansion in the Near East. Elevated levels of ht35 have also been observed among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations.

    ReplyDelete
  51. What has happened? This is what Pinzochero writes on his “ht35 project”:This is not the place to resolve your issues with other people on the web.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Don't know who Pinzochero is, don't really want to know.

    Gioiello, people get banned from dna forum sites due to having unorthodox opinions. For example, FTDNA forum is composed of a lot of religious loons who actually believe lots of superstitious nonsense. I am J1, I don't like all the Cohen crap, or Abraham crap, Shem crap, Semite crap and the other crap that goes on there. It is crap as it is unsubstantiated by any real provable evidence. Leave religion to those interested in theology and leave dna to genetic studies.

    R1b, the common (frequent) haplogroup in SW Europe has its origins in Asia probably by the banks of Lake Van. Europe is a concept, mostly cultural but extending Europe geographically to include that part of Asia is ridiculous. It is not indigenous to Europe but arose in Caucasoid people, light skinned and dark haired as most of their descendants are in Ireland today. Polak is probably right. It entered Europe in the Holocene period and mostly in the Neolithic. It is also likely that the Etruscans and the original speakers of what is today Euskara, lived in Europe prior to colonisation or invasion of Italy, and Iberia by speakers of Celtic and Italic/Romance languages who were high R1b Y chromosome carriers, at least higher than the Etruscans or Iberians were. Like many infectious agents than infect Europe like Yersinia pestis, which arose in Central Asia, Y chromosome haplogroups in Europe arose in Asia and mostly spread similarly: R1b, R1b, J1, J2, G the E groups. Haplogroup I appears to have preceeded the others in Europe. The main differences between the haplogroups is that some were seeded by sea and the others by land. In any event, no haplogroups in Europe no matter how common or frequent in Paris, Milan, Madrid, London, Dublin or Moscow are indigenous to Europe.

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